Hypothetical Situation

[Flamingo]

We'll, I've never had anybody challenge it on the few occasions it's happened. If they believed I was wrong, they had the ticket back to send into the TOC and complain, nobody ever has.

Anyway, you are getting confused. It's not the Old Bailey, and I'm the judge on my train. I work to the balance of probabilities, and I don't use a jury. I'm the Judge Judy (or Judge Dredd if you prefer) of the railway!

 

[TonyR]

Well, if you were confident in your judgement you would scan the ticket and confirm you were right, not fabricate an accusation on a prejudice.

 

[PermitToTravel]

But that doesn't look as impressive!

(I too sometimes have many open returns on my person, some clipped more than once, some issued in the reverse direction to others. I'm usually careful never to show more than one, though, lest a train conductor be less good at fraud detection than Flamingo claims to be)

 

[Flamingo]

Well, if you were confident in your judgement you would scan the ticket and confirm you were right, not fabricate an accusation on a prejudice.

I am confident in my judgement, that's the point. I will scan them if unsure.

 

[Marvin]

Your gates give the ticket back to you at the destination station? The ones up here don't - which is annoying when you've got a ticket that you want to keep.

I've often found that when I have a ticket I want to keep (either because I want to claim expenses for the journey or because it's to somewhere I've never been before) a simple request to the staff member manning the gates will enable me to get through without having to surrender it.

Obviously I have no problem with them marking the ticket to show it's been used (assuming no such mark already exists).

 

[Yew]

Perhaps by buying returns when you only really need to go one way - and a return is 5/10 p more than a single ?

Also buying a Return allows me to get Plus Bus tickets for 2 different days

PS just sorted out my wallet, and I now have 5 unused return halvers - from a total of arounf 20 ticvkets originally

I used to have quite a few unused returns, due to going to a pub in town, missing the last train and getting the bus home

 

[ASharpe]

I often have one or two unused return from Leeds to Guildford.

I travel up every weekend on Advances anyway. But when my work has me up north before the weekend I have a spare return. I just keep out of sync on my return halves for work until I eventually get around to needing a return ticket other than my advance.

And if it was torn up in front of me I wouldn't be offering up any of my other tickets.

 

[Clip]

Is this the 3rd or 4th 'hypothetical' thread we have had on here in the last week or so? This one isnt hypothetical at all, its real, it happens and people do get caught doing so.

 

[Class377]

Could it work if all guards or barriers worked with a hole-punch through the ticket? When any member of staff sees someone trying to use a ticket with such a hole in it, they can then raise suspicion.

Of course, this would need some alternative for when BOJ's occur, and would probably require barriers to be constantly closed (and active guards on routes where people claim they can't buy tickets).

But then, I think, why should the railway have to change? Hopelessly naive of me but if everyone just bought a ticket correctly none of this would be an issue...

 

[WillPS]

We'll, I've never had anybody challenge it on the few occasions it's happened. If they believed I was wrong, they had the ticket back to send into the TOC and complain, nobody ever has.

Anyway, you are getting confused. It's not the Old Bailey, and I'm the judge on my train. I work to the balance of probabilities, and I don't use a jury. I'm the Judge Judy (or Judge Dredd if you prefer) of the railway!

I'm not sure 'nobody has complained' proves absolutely that you've never got it wrong. I've lost count of the times something 'not on' has happened to me and I've not complained because of a variety of reasons; and I probably write to companies considerably more than most.

 

[Geronimo]

This one isnt hypothetical at all, its real, it happens and people do get caught doing so.

Sure, but it is interesting to note that a (albeit cursory) search of this this forum does not reveal any examples. This is in contrast with the many instances of other fare evasion "techniques".
This might suggest that reusing return tickets is either not very frequent, difficult to detect, or difficult to prosecute.

For what it's worth, I don't understand why date stamping is not mandatory to validate tickets (like in some continental countries) .

 

[neilmc]

Realistically I think it would only work on Anytime returns where you can then purchase an Advance to match up with any unused return portion from the previous journey. And Anytime returns tend to be quite expensive, if you're smart enough to work this scam you're smart enough not to have to pay the ridiculous cost of an Anytime return in the first place, only for a spoilsport like Flamingo to come along with a big black marker pen or a hole punch and ruin your scheme.

So I wouldn't expect this to be a major fraud loophole. Or am I missing something?

 

[WillPS]

Realistically I think it would only work on Anytime returns where you can then purchase an Advance to match up with any unused return portion from the previous journey. And Anytime returns tend to be quite expensive, if you're smart enough to work this scam you're smart enough not to have to pay the ridiculous cost of an Anytime return in the first place, only for a spoilsport like Flamingo to come along with a big black marker pen or a hole punch and ruin your scheme.

So I wouldn't expect this to be a major fraud loophole. Or am I missing something?

I know loads of people who did it at university (that doesn't make it right, I know). I knew somebody who would have an Anytime Return Sheffield - Leeds (to get him to Sheffield in the morning) and an Off Peak Return Leeds - Sheffield (to get him back after uni). A couple of times the ticket was stamped part way through the month, but most times it would expire unstamped. Barriers at Leeds never gave him grief.

 

[34D]

Could it work if all guards or barriers worked with a hole-punch through the ticket? When any member of staff sees someone trying to use a ticket with such a hole in it, they can then raise suspicion.

Of course, this would need some alternative for when BOJ's occur, and would probably require barriers to be constantly closed (and active guards on routes where people claim they can't buy tickets).

But then, I think, why should the railway have to change? Hopelessly naive of me but if everyone just bought a ticket correctly none of this would be an issue...

There's nothing wrong with doing a BOJ. We wouldn't want to give up that right without a fight

 

[LowLevel]

Of course it happens - it gives me great pleasure to see the look of horror as I forcibly remove said ticket from hand or wallet and clip it (usually at least 2 or 3 days since issue, on a commuter route, with an odd number of other tickets and a strange reluctance to hand over the period one).

 

[Class377]

There's nothing wrong with doing a BOJ. We wouldn't want to give up that right without a fight

I'm not saying there's a problem with BOJs, I'm just saying my proposal would need some new initiatives to prevent it causing problems. I've used them myself!

Even something like stricter programming on the gates to not eat up a ticket if it's not the destination (and perhaps a little stamp which states BOJ at _____ to prevent it being reused?)

 

[island]

Could it work if all guards or barriers worked with a hole-punch through the ticket? When any member of staff sees someone trying to use a ticket with such a hole in it, they can then raise suspicion.

Of course, this would need some alternative for when BOJ's occur, and would probably require barriers to be constantly closed (and active guards on routes where people claim they can't buy tickets).

But then, I think, why should the railway have to change? Hopelessly naive of me but if everyone just bought a ticket correctly none of this would be an issue...

I think barriers should print the date, time, and location on any non-season ticket put through them.

 

[Deerfold]

I think barriers should print the date, time, and location on any non-season ticket put through them.

Could be interesting to decipher with multiple BOJs...

And require a substantial update to install printers in every barrier.

 

[najaB]

And require a substantial update to install printers in every barrier.

It wouldn't have to be every gate. There could be a 'Break of Journey' gate or two at main stations, and manual checks at smaller ones.

 

[Deerfold]

It wouldn't have to be every gate. There could be a 'Break of Journey' gate or two at main stations, and manual checks at smaller ones.

Surely that makes Island's plan pointless? All someone who doesn't want anything printed on their ticket to make it obvious it has been used would avoid those gates?

 

[najaB]

Surely that makes Island's plan pointless? All someone who doesn't want anything printed on their ticket to make it obvious it has been used would avoid those gates?

The non-break of journey gates would eat the tickets.

 

[island]

Could be interesting to decipher with multiple BOJs...

And require a substantial update to install printers in every barrier.

I didn't say there wouldn't be issues; this is a hypothetical thread after all...

 

[Deerfold]

The non-break of journey gates would eat the tickets.

Can't see anyone getting confused by that system.

 

[plastictaffy]

I am confident in my judgement, that's the point. I will scan them if unsure.

Easy to tell the sort that will mug you off. See where they get on the train, see if they look where you are when they board, shifty looking, body language etc etc etc. I can look at someone boarding and know whether they're likely to be a fare dodger or not. I'm right maybe 80% of the time. You just know.

 

[neilmc]

Easy to tell the sort that will mug you off. See where they get on the train, see if they look where you are when they board, shifty looking, body language etc etc etc. I can look at someone boarding and know whether they're likely to be a fare dodger or not. I'm right maybe 80% of the time. You just know.

Thanks for the info. Now I'm determined to look shifty and keep looking around to see where the ticket collector is, just to REALLY make them cross when my ticket turns out to be perfectly valid. That is, when I've finally unearthed it after searching through a dodgy pile of backdated returns from all over the country.

 

[Clip]

Thanks for the info. Now I'm determined to look shifty and keep looking around to see where the ticket collector is, just to REALLY make them cross when my ticket turns out to be perfectly valid. That is, when I've finally unearthed it after searching through a dodgy pile of backdated returns from all over the country.

Good. And I hope the guard you come across and do this to takes all your old tickets off you for being a smart arse.

 

[Merseysider]

Speaking hypothetically of course, if one was really determined, one could purchase an 'erasable pen' from eBay for 99p and write the date on the ticket so the guard has no reason to mark it. Then remove said date at the end of the journey. Although I imagine one would get caught eventually.

 

[TonyR]

Thanks for the info. Now I'm determined to look shifty and keep looking around to see where the ticket collector is, just to REALLY make them cross when my ticket turns out to be perfectly valid. That is, when I've finally unearthed it after searching through a dodgy pile of backdated returns from all over the country.

Just hope you don't meet flamingo though who, convinced of your guilt even though you are innocent, will pretend to scan your valid ticket, declare it invalid and throw you off the train with a Penalty Fare.

 

[Flamingo]

Just hope you don't meet flamingo though who, convinced of your guilt even though you are innocent, will pretend to scan your valid ticket, declare it invalid and throw you off the train with a Penalty Fare.

I'd never do that - I can't issue penalty fares!

 

[Clip]

I'd never do that - I can't issue penalty fares!

let e honest though - there really is no reason to carry around so many unused tickets on your person is there? And even if there was then teh savvy traveller would have the correct ticket at hand for an inspection. Those who dont you can pretty much say for certain are trying it on.