Huge Expansion in Scotrail services planned

[ScotTrains]

Firstly completing the borders line, then opening a branch line to St Andrews would be my priority. A Dundee to St Andrews shuttle would be very welcome indeed. The bus takes an age.

 

[najaB]

Firstly completing the borders line

The numbers for Tweedbank to Carlisle are questionable at best.

...then opening a branch line to St Andrews would be my priority. A Dundee to St Andrews shuttle would be very welcome indeed. The bus takes an age.

There's potential for this, but it doesn't make sense unless you also have a south-facing junction.

 

[Altnabreac]

Firstly completing the borders line, then opening a branch line to St Andrews would be my priority. A Dundee to St Andrews shuttle would be very welcome indeed. The bus takes an age.

Unfortunately neither of these (assuming you mean south of Hawick) is remotely realistic and not in the top 10 reopenings in Scotland.

Others have mentioned my Golden Rules. Neither of these makes the grade.

Levenmouth is certainly the most realistic reopening that might happen in the next 5 years.

After that there is a bunch of maybes that haven't really had proper local authority support, or STAG appraisals. Peterhead, Grangemouth, Penicuik, Bridge of Weir, Alloa-Dunfermline, Hawick, Banchory, Oldmeldrum.

I could see 1 or 2 of them re-opening as well. The key thing to attract funding is connecting commuters to big cities and regeneration benefits.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Unfortunately neither of these (assuming you mean south of Hawick) is remotely realistic and not in the top 10 reopenings in Scotland.

Others have mentioned my Golden Rules. Neither of these makes the grade.

Levenmouth is certainly the most realistic reopening that might happen in the next 5 years.

I like the idea of Glasgow to Edinburgh via the Alloa-Kincardine-Longannet route, but the case for such a service is shaky with the Stirling-Alloa electrification in the short term, any such service would need to be diesel operated initially, prior to the Alloa-Dunfermline and the Dunfermline-Forth Bridge-Edinburgh sections being electrified.

 

[Altnabreac]

I like the idea of Glasgow to Edinburgh via the Alloa-Kincardine-Longannet route, but the case for such a service is shaky with the Stirling-Alloa electrification in the short term, any such service would need to be diesel operated initially, prior to the Alloa-Dunfermline and the Dunfermline-Forth Bridge-Edinburgh sections being electrified.

Agreed. The Draft Route Study does propose some terminating Edinburgh - Dunfermline services so initially the best bet might be an Edinburgh - Stirling DMU service reversing at Dunfermline.

I suspect it would have a marginal business case at best but it could happen.

 

[Class 170101]

For the record how many 170s are Scotrail now keeping in total?

 

[me123]

I've come to this late, but I'm very pleased about these proposals.

• Hourly service to Nairn, Forres and Elgin

Brilliant, although not new information. Moray is my favourite part of Scotland, and it's growing quickly. The additional connectivity to Inverness will really boost these three important and lovely towns. Will be popular, I'm sure, and will be a proving ground for the proposed half-hourly service at the end of the improvements on the line in the medium-long term.

• Hourly service alternating between Edinburgh and Glasgow with limited-stop services running south of Perth. Average journey time will be at least 10 minutes shorter than now
• Two hourly Glasgow / Inverness service and an Edinburgh / Inverness services.

Again, I think we knew this was coming, but it's a welcome boost to the Highlands. Of course, even though both major cities in the Central Belt have 1tp2h to Inverness directly, there is a 1tph service if you include connection opportunities.

Aberdeen:
• Hourly ‘local’ service across the city between Inverurie Montrose, stopping at all stations.
• Additional services to the above to create a half hourly service between Aberdeen and Inverurie.

Aberdeen basically has no commuter rail service, so this will be a massive boost to the communities closer to the city. Now, if only there were jobs in Aberdeen...

• Additional early morning and late evening services to Elgin, Keith, Huntly and Insch

These stations already have the early morning 04:53 Inverness-Edinburgh train calling at all stations as it goes the long way via Aberdeen. I've boarded this before, and even though it's prior to 6am it can be full and standing at Insch. Maybe the oil downturn has reduced the loadings, but I'm sure there's still enough demand for additional trains in the morning.

Interestingly, no particular mention of Aberdeen-Inverness going hourly, which I understand is the plan in the medium-long term. This would be the icing on the cake for the North East.

• Hourly limited stop High Speed Train service to both Edinburgh and Glasgow
Many High Speed trains running from Glasgow or Edinburgh will be extended through to Inverness

Good, although we kind of already have this. Direct running between Edinburgh/Glasgow to the North East will be really beneficial - there are lots of people transferring between the services, and they would appreciate the through services I'm sure. If we look at the plans below, I would assume that Aberdeen services will be limited stop to Dundee (Perth, Stirling calls only), which will speed things up. No more stops in Gleneagles and Dunblane!

Dundee:
• Hourly service to Broughty Ferry, Monifieth, Carnoustie and Arbroath

Good to see some love for the small stations East of Dundee. There's far too many and I think they need to close some of them down, but there's no doubt in my mind that Broughty Ferry can have a viable hourly rail service, presumably continuing to either Edinburgh or Glasgow.

• Half hourly service to Perth, Stirling and Glasgow – one limited stop High Speed Train and one regional service
• Continuation of existing half hourly service to Edinburgh - one limited stop High Speed Train and one regional service

It's good to see the Glasgow-Dundee being brought into line with the Edinburgh-Dundee market. Taking the smaller station calls from the Aberdeen runs and putting them onto a local service will benefit the towns and villages, who lose out direct service to Aberdeen, but benefit in a regular rail service to major cities, with connection opportunities.

Perth:
• Hourly service to Inverness from Edinburgh in one hour, from Glasgow in the other hour);
• Minimum of an hourly service to Glasgow and Edinburgh (mix of limited stop High Speed Train and one regional service)
• New regional Glasgow – Dundee service provides an hourly service between Glasgow and Stirling, Bridge of Allan, Dunblane, Glaneagles, Perth and Invergowrie.

Presumably in combination with the above, this means that there is a generally 2tph (and maybe up to 3tph) service between Perth and Glasgow? This would be phenomenal news. Perth to Glasgow is a busy market, which is underserved with the mere 1tph (most hours). Edinburgh not really getting as service improvement, though. I don't know how busy those trains will be, but I think that's going to be a pinch point as things go on.

Edinburgh:
• New standard ‘all day’ timetable to stations in Fife operated by 3-coach class 170 trains

I'm sure Fife will be happy, although I don't quite know what this entails. Do we not have an "all day" timetable just now? I hope that the 3-coach trains are strengthened when needed. Of course, a 4 car 158 has more seats than a 3 car 170, so I'd hope Fife doesn't lose out.

• New through service each hour between Borders railway and Fife. Borders railway primarily operated by 3-coach class 170 trains (X% more seats per train)

The real benefit will be the direct Fife-Newcraighall (reinstated), and the direct Borders - Edinburgh Gateway services. A good result for Edinburgh that will hopefully take some traffic off the bypass. They will need to specify the value of x, though. :roll:

• New half hourly service to Glasgow via Cumbernauld, Stepps and Gartcosh

This is a surprise. The only town to particularly benefit will be Stepps: Gartcosh residents can access services in Coatbridge and Cumbernauld residents will use Croy. But if it can take the pressure off those services, then it's good to see. I'd hope to see an Edinburgh Park call.

• Current half hourly service to Stirling and Dunblane becomes limited stop rather than all stations, reducing journey times by around 10 minutes

I'll echo previous sentiments that I'd hope an Edinburgh Park call is continued, but otherwise good news.

Glasgow:
• Four trains per hour service to Cumbernauld with two operating via Falkirk Grahamston through to Edinburgh

Nice plan, although I see that it seems to be 4tph from GLQ HL. I'd like to see the 2tph local to Cumbernauld running through the low level as extensions from the Springburn terminators. It provides the stations with connections in the East End (Duke Street, Bellgrove, High Street) and through to the West (Charing Cross, Partick, and onwards) that would be lost. It also maximises paths available from GLQ HL. The major stations would retain 2tph direct service to the High Level.

Borders:
• Typically 20% more seats on majority of services to Midlothian and the Borders.

Presumably coming from 170s being used vice 158s.

I'm very positive about these plans overall, and think they will greatly benefit Scotland. The real winners seem to be in the North East, but the smaller changes in Glasgow and Edinburgh will really benefit the transport network there too.

 

[Bodiddly]

I've come to this late, but I'm very pleased about these proposals.



Brilliant, although not new information. Moray is my favourite part of Scotland, and it's growing quickly. The additional connectivity to Inverness will really boost these three important and lovely towns. Will be popular, I'm sure, and will be a proving ground for the proposed half-hourly service at the end of the improvements on the line in the medium-long term.



Again, I think we knew this was coming, but it's a welcome boost to the Highlands. Of course, even though both major cities in the Central Belt have 1tp2h to Inverness directly, there is a 1tph service if you include connection opportunities.



Aberdeen basically has no commuter rail service, so this will be a massive boost to the communities closer to the city. Now, if only there were jobs in Aberdeen...



These stations already have the early morning 04:53 Inverness-Edinburgh train calling at all stations as it goes the long way via Aberdeen. I've boarded this before, and even though it's prior to 6am it can be full and standing at Insch. Maybe the oil downturn has reduced the loadings, but I'm sure there's still enough demand for additional trains in the morning.

Interestingly, no particular mention of Aberdeen-Inverness going hourly, which I understand is the plan in the medium-long term. This would be the icing on the cake for the North East.



Good, although we kind of already have this. Direct running between Edinburgh/Glasgow to the North East will be really beneficial - there are lots of people transferring between the services, and they would appreciate the through services I'm sure. If we look at the plans below, I would assume that Aberdeen services will be limited stop to Dundee (Perth, Stirling calls only), which will speed things up. No more stops in Gleneagles and Dunblane!



Good to see some love for the small stations East of Dundee. There's far too many and I think they need to close some of them down, but there's no doubt in my mind that Broughty Ferry can have a viable hourly rail service, presumably continuing to either Edinburgh or Glasgow.



It's good to see the Glasgow-Dundee being brought into line with the Edinburgh-Dundee market. Taking the smaller station calls from the Aberdeen runs and putting them onto a local service will benefit the towns and villages, who lose out direct service to Aberdeen, but benefit in a regular rail service to major cities, with connection opportunities.



Presumably in combination with the above, this means that there is a generally 2tph (and maybe up to 3tph) service between Perth and Glasgow? This would be phenomenal news. Perth to Glasgow is a busy market, which is underserved with the mere 1tph (most hours). Edinburgh not really getting as service improvement, though. I don't know how busy those trains will be, but I think that's going to be a pinch point as things go on.



I'm sure Fife will be happy, although I don't quite know what this entails. Do we not have an "all day" timetable just now? I hope that the 3-coach trains are strengthened when needed. Of course, a 4 car 158 has more seats than a 3 car 170, so I'd hope Fife doesn't lose out.



The real benefit will be the direct Fife-Newcraighall (reinstated), and the direct Borders - Edinburgh Gateway services. A good result for Edinburgh that will hopefully take some traffic off the bypass. They will need to specify the value of x, though. :roll:



This is a surprise. The only town to particularly benefit will be Stepps: Gartcosh residents can access services in Coatbridge and Cumbernauld residents will use Croy. But if it can take the pressure off those services, then it's good to see. I'd hope to see an Edinburgh Park call.



I'll echo previous sentiments that I'd hope an Edinburgh Park call is continued, but otherwise good news.



Nice plan, although I see that it seems to be 4tph from GLQ HL. I'd like to see the 2tph local to Cumbernauld running through the low level as extensions from the Springburn terminators. It provides the stations with connections in the East End (Duke Street, Bellgrove, High Street) and through to the West (Charing Cross, Partick, and onwards) that would be lost. It also maximises paths available from GLQ HL. The major stations would retain 2tph direct service to the High Level.



Presumably coming from 170s being used vice 158s.

I'm very positive about these plans overall, and think they will greatly benefit Scotland. The real winners seem to be in the North East, but the smaller changes in Glasgow and Edinburgh will really benefit the transport network there too.

Good elaboration on the original point. Personally, I am biased for Northern improvements because I live here. We have suffered in recent years from a very lacklustre timetable. Even today, people living in Nairn, Forres and Elgin cannot get a train after half past nine at night from Inverness. That's just crazy for such a populated area (Nairn and Forres with 12,000+ each and Elgin with over 23,000), hopefully these new improvements to services out of Inverness will rectify this.

 

[nanstallon]

... For instance, it might be found that the best way to speed up Dumfries-Glasgow journeys would be to build a chord between Lockerbie and Dumfries and run a WCML service. Another option could be to improve the connecting service to Carlisle and then have people change there onto existing and future express services up to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

I believe that there used to be a line between Dumfries and Lockerbie, indeed still open to goods until the mid/ late sixties. Perhaps the trackbed is still reasonably intact?

John

 

[jopsuk]

I believe that there used to be a line between Dumfries and Lockerbie, indeed still open to goods until the mid/ late sixties. Perhaps the trackbed is still reasonably intact?

John

the junction for this was to the north of Lockerbie station. This is what the trackbed right there looks like as can clearly be seen here.

Looks like the creamery is on the old route, as are the houses (rather than the street) here in Lochmaben.

At Dumfries it again approached from the north

So the route is wrong and the trackbed significantly gone

 

[Altnabreac]

I'm sure Fife will be happy, although I don't quite know what this entails. Do we not have an "all day" timetable just now? I hope that the 3-coach trains are strengthened when needed. Of course, a 4 car 158 has more seats than a 3 car 170, so I'd hope Fife doesn't lose out.



The real benefit will be the direct Fife-Newcraighall (reinstated), and the direct Borders - Edinburgh Gateway services. A good result for Edinburgh that will hopefully take some traffic off the bypass. They will need to specify the value of x, though. :roll:

At the moment Fife Circle gets a 2tph each way service off peak with an additional 1tph on the Cowdenbeath/Dunfermline side in the peak.

The draft Scotland Route Study proposes that there should be a 2tph Edinburgh - Dunfermline service as well.

I suspect what they mean by this "All day service" is to run the additional 1tph peak extra service to/from Dunfermline all day. It would make sense from an operational point of view for this to be the Borders through services.

 

[170401]

Good elaboration on the original point. Personally, I am biased for Northern improvements because I live here. We have suffered in recent years from a very lacklustre timetable. Even today, people living in Nairn, Forres and Elgin cannot get a train after half past nine at night from Inverness. That's just crazy for such a populated area (Nairn and Forres with 12,000+ each and Elgin with over 23,000), hopefully these new improvements to services out of Inverness will rectify this.

Part of the grand plan includes a traincrew depot at Elgin so you may well get your late trains

 

[OldBloke]

As a non-driver I'm frustrated by the lack of evening trains by which I can return to Pitlochry. Last train departure times are:

Edinburgh: 19:44pm
Glasgow: 19:10pm
Perth: 21:01pm
Inverness: 20:15pm
Dunkeld: 21:18pm

Does anyone know whether the 2018 enhancements are likely to include later evening services?

 

[najaB]

Does anyone know whether the 2018 enhancements are likely to include later evening services?

I'd be very surprised to see much (or any) later services from Edinburgh or Glasgow as that would mean arrivals into Inverness at stupid o'clock. As it is the 1944 from Edinburgh doesn't get in until 2316.

I could see a late Perth-Blair Atholl service working, along with an Inverness-Kingussie service at the other end.

 

[cf111]

What odds do we think on the re-opening of the Peterhead (Fraserburgh?) line moving forward in the mid to long term? I think the government started enquiries as to this last year but I haven't heard anything since.

 

[jopsuk]

This is going to mean a hilarious number of different direct routes between Edinburgh and Glasgow:
EDB-GLC via Carstairs (with XC and VTEC as well as ScotRail
EDB-GLC via Shotts (in the electrification queue)
EDB-GLQ Low Level via Bathgate and onwards to Helensburgh
EDB-GLQ High Level via Falkirk High- the flagship express route
EDB-GLQ High Level via Falkirk Grahamston and Cumbernauld - the "why are you travelling the whole length of this?" stopper

 

[Class 170101]

I'd be very surprised to see much (or any) later services from Edinburgh or Glasgow as that would mean arrivals into Inverness at stupid o'clock. As it is the 1944 from Edinburgh doesn't get in until 2316.

I could see a late Perth-Blair Atholl service working, along with an Inverness-Kingussie service at the other end.

If a three hour journey time proves regularly achievable then departing the Central Belt around 21:00 - 21:30 window wouldn't be unreasonable.

Similarly departing from Inverness around 20:45 to the Central Belt would be good. A short working from Inverness to Perth around 22:00 would have value. Similarly in the opposite direction from Perth to Inverness departing 06:00.

The current Blair Atholl starter should start back from Inverness around 05:45.

 

[najaB]

If a three hour journey time proves regularly achievable then departing the Central Belt around 21:00 - 21:30 window wouldn't be unreasonable.

Agreed. But it depends on what it would hit (or not, preferably ) coming the other direction.

 

[jopsuk]

If you want a lifestyle that involves late nights in the capital you may just have to accept that living in a small town/large village seventy miles away in the highlands might not be compatible?

 

[najaB]

If you want a lifestyle that involves late nights in the capital...

Don't know if I'd class quarter to eight as a 'late night'.

 

[Iskra]

If a three hour journey time proves regularly achievable then departing the Central Belt around 21:00 - 21:30 window wouldn't be unreasonable.

Similarly departing from Inverness around 20:45 to the Central Belt would be good. A short working from Inverness to Perth around 22:00 would have value. Similarly in the opposite direction from Perth to Inverness departing 06:00.

The current Blair Atholl starter should start back from Inverness around 05:45.

Isn't that the time the sleeper leaves Inverness, which is also a normal service train isn't it? So that service already exists.

 

[najaB]

Isn't that the time the sleeper leaves Inverness, which is also a normal service train isn't it?.

Not from Inverness to the Central Belt, no. You're thinking of the Fort William to Edinburgh portion.

 

[Altnabreac]

Not from Inverness to the Central Belt, no. You're thinking of the Fort William to Edinburgh portion.

Inverness Sleeper does work as a service train but on the northbound from Kingussie to Inverness.

 

[Bodiddly]

If you want a lifestyle that involves late nights in the capital you may just have to accept that living in a small town/large village seventy miles away in the highlands might not be compatible?

What? Sorry, we'll all move South so we can enjoy the same lifestyle as the big city folk. Or here is another plan, why don't we implement a timetable that fits modern life? It's not like we are asking for much, just a train home after the start of the night would do for starters.

 

[Altnabreac]

What? Sorry, we'll all move South so we can enjoy the same lifestyle as the big city folk. Or here is another plan, why don't we implement a timetable that fits modern life? It's not like we are asking for much, just a train home after the start of the night would do for starters.

To be fair most lines in Scotland have a last departure that arrives around midnight and Inverness is only slightly worse than this with a 23.15 arrival.

As the journey time comes down this could improve slightly and an arrival closer to midnight would also help but I doubt there will ever be a central belt departure much later than 21.00.

A faster hourly service is definitely needed economically but late night services are probably a lower priority for economic growth.

 

[JohnR]

What odds do we think on the re-opening of the Peterhead (Fraserburgh?) line moving forward in the mid to long term? I think the government started enquiries as to this last year but I haven't heard anything since.

The Government didnt, but the local authorities have:

http://stv.tv/news/north/211659-councillors-steam-ahead-with-plans-to-re-open-north-east-rail-link/

This is only as far as Ellon, though. I'm not convinced that it will make sense unless it goes all the way to Fraserborough. As for serving Peterhead, I dont know if it will make sense to re-open from Maud on the Fraserborough line, or actually utilise the old line from Ellon to Boddam, with a new alignment to take you into the town itself. The costs would probably be similar, and the southern route would give a quicker journey into Aberdeen from Peterhead.

 

[najaB]

This is only as far as Ellon, though. I'm not convinced that it will make sense unless it goes all the way to Fraserboroughburgh.

Agreed, you need to go all the way to a main population centre.

As for serving Peterhead, I dont know if it will make sense to re-open from Maud on the Fraserborough line, or actually utilise the old line from Ellon to Boddam, with a new alignment to take you into the town itself.

From a quick Google/Bing maps survey, it looks like the route from Ellon to Boddam isn't as well preserved as the northern route, so that may make the decision a bit easier.

 

[Western Lord]

The Government didnt, but the local authorities have:

http://stv.tv/news/north/211659-councillors-steam-ahead-with-plans-to-re-open-north-east-rail-link/

This is only as far as Ellon, though. I'm not convinced that it will make sense unless it goes all the way to Fraserborough. As for serving Peterhead, I dont know if it will make sense to re-open from Maud on the Fraserborough line, or actually utilise the old line from Ellon to Boddam, with a new alignment to take you into the town itself. The costs would probably be similar, and the southern route would give a quicker journey into Aberdeen from Peterhead.

If any reopening was to take place it would be to Peterhead (population c. 18,500) rather than Fraserburgh (population c.12,500). Peterhead is also far more involved with the North Sea oil and gas business.

 

[sprinterguy]

For the record how many 170s are Scotrail now keeping in total?

Thirty four units.

 

[Bodiddly]

To be fair most lines in Scotland have a last departure that arrives around midnight and Inverness is only slightly worse than this with a 23.15 arrival.

As the journey time comes down this could improve slightly and an arrival closer to midnight would also help but I doubt there will ever be a central belt departure much later than 21.00.

A faster hourly service is definitely needed economically but late night services are probably a lower priority for economic growth.

It's not the getting to Inverness that's the problem. Indeed, the last train via Aberdeen can be very handy for a late departure from Edinburgh or Glasgow. It's the fact that you cannot get a train Eastbound from Inverness after 9.30 at night is what causes us on the Moray Coast the biggest problem. I've been to numerous nights out in Inverness and had to leave at 9.20 to get the train home! Talk about a downer. A later train at 23.30 going to Elgin and coming back ECS would be perfect. Tain get's one at the weekend so why shouldn't we?