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Huge Expansion in Scotrail services planned

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route:oxford

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Have you been on the A9 recently North of Perth? Probably not when you cite a bypass just North of Stirling 20 odd years ago as being a major step forward. It was a Conservative constituency at the time so make of that what you will. Going further North where the Tory party became non existent, so did any funding! Labour were certainly not any better and it has taken a Nationalist government to set aside funding for improvements very recently.
Again, I welcome any investment in our transport infrastructure but re-iterate that we are certainly not a priority area in the UK.
But getting back to my original point, can an area that has a population of circa 50,000 expect to have a train timetable that suits the travelling needs of such a large population and in particular, a train leaving after half past nine in the evening from our main city? You would think so.

I appreciate that you do not see the Dunblane bypass as being a major step-forward. For the residents - it made a considerable change. Particularly for those living on or around the Perth Road.

Did you feel the same way about the Blackford Bypass, Auchterarder & Aberuthven Bypass, Cairney Braes bypass as well as the Perth bypasses all completed in the 80s?

It's easy to forget that until fairly recently to get from Stirling to Inverness you had to travel through all of these towns, then take a left turn at York Place in Perth. Or worse if you were heading to Dundee you queued all the way through Perth and crossed the Tay at South Street.

My home town was also in a Conservative constituency on the day that it was selected for mass murder by a left-wing Glaswegian. Make of that what you will... It's such fun to weaponise politics isn't it?

Perth has a population of around 50,000, yes. The last train has always been pretty reasonable though. It currently leaves Glasgow at 23:51 - that's 2h21 later than your claim.
 
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Altnabreac

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The original cost estimate for Dalmeny Chord was £175 million, so you'd be looking at over £200m now allowing for inflation:
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/p...&ReferenceNumbers=S4W-17248&ResultsPerPage=10

That's big money on top of committed schemes such as Montrose Basin, further phases of HML and Aberdeen - Inverness improvements and electrification of 100km per year. If your theory is correct it might explain the lack of commitment from the SNP to funding any new lines such as Levenmouth.

Turns out I was wrong! (First time for everything ;)).

I've been told since that Network Rail now think they can get another 2tph through Newbridge Junction so it doesn't necessarily need Dalmeny Chord to run this service.

I have my doubts but I'm sure they know what they're doing :roll:

However I'm sure Dalmeny Chord will happen sooner rather than later as the extra capacity it brings is certainly required for High Speed Rail if not sooner.

Of course the draft route study also proposed a 6tph service to Bathgate. Whether you can run that as well as the Grahamston extras without Dalmeny Chord is another matter.
 

XC90

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The EGIP is not as good as originally planned.

Once the chord from the E & G mainline down to Cumbernauld was dropped the project lost a lot of credibility. When E&G services are diverted via Cumbernauld they have to turn the electric services from Dalmuir at Springburn because of capacity issues. It also affects services via FAlkirk grahamston to Stirling and beyond.

SNP also scaled back the borders route double track mileage which now means when special (steam etc) trains run, passenger services need to be cancelled.

GARL - cancelled.

Does anyone see a theme developing? I wonder if the SNP are more focused on something else whilst they drop the baton on implementing fully, the rail improvements needed for Scotland's growing passenger numbers.
 
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NotATrainspott

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The EGIP is not as good as originally planned.

Once the chord from the E & G mainline down to Cumbernauld was dropped the project lost a lot of credibility. When E&G services are diverted via Cumbernauld they have to turn the electric services from Dalmuir at Springburn because of capacity issues. It also affects services via FAlkirk grahamston to Stirling and beyond.

SNP also scaled back the borders route double track mileage which now means when special (steam etc) trains run, passenger services need to be cancelled.

GARL - cancelled.

Does anyone see a theme developing? I wonder if the SNP are more focused on something else whilst they drop the baton on implementing fully, the rail improvements needed for Scotland's growing passenger numbers.

The original EGIP plan was for 6tph 6 carriage EMUs running the shuttle. That required major expenditure across the route, plus the loss of the Anniesland shuttles into Queen Street. It was then calculated that a more cost-efficient way to deliver the same benefits would be to extend platforms to 8 carriages without adding more services. The extra infrastructure components have been dropped, but there is nothing stopping them being constructed in future. Indeed, the two major enhancements planned - the Greenhill Junction works and the Dalmeny/Almond Chord - are still included in Network Rail's long term planning. Both schemes will likely go ahead in the 2019-2024 timescale.

If the rebuild of Queen Street had gone ahead without the plan to extend trains to 8 carriages, then it would have been prohibitively expensive to extend platforms later on. Therefore, by extending platforms first, it enables all the service improvements originally planned to be combined with longer trains for even greater benefit, while the other way around would not have allowed this. In addition, without the platform extension works at Queen Street it may well not have been possible to use shortened HSTs on InterCity runs, meaning that these would suffer too due to the use of D(E)MUs with underfloor engines.

As the Waverley Railway Act demanded that the whole line be built, or none of it, there is little that can be done to reduce expenditure other than reducing the amount of double-tracking. Would you rather have no railway at all, or a railway delayed even longer, or one which has actually been built despite being of dubious BCR? If you wanted to spend even more money on a gold-plated line that would have meant spending less money on some other worthy cause, and the role of a government is to make these sorts of hard decisions. If you can get 95% of the benefit for only 70% of the cost (for example), then that cost saving can be used to spend money on other schemes to benefit the country even more.

GARL was a simply woeful scheme which made no and still does not make any sense whatsoever. Most of the business case was to do with the wider Paisley Corridor improvements necessary to deliver it, and those works still went ahead. The expensive viaduct over the playing fields and the M8 would only have seen a tiny number of passengers. Instead of being empty after Paisley Gilmour Street, these trains now continue on to where people actually live, providing a better transport system for the vast majority of people in Scotland. If you want to improve the accessibility of Glasgow Airport for people in Glasgow you would be better off funding better bus links from across the city, rather than providing a shuttle service into the city centre where very few people actually live. The few passengers who do need to go between them can be dealt with more efficiently by buses, taxis or some other transport system which can justify its existence with other passengers doing other journeys. A tram line from the city centre to the Airport via the hospital, Braehead and Renfrew would be a much better use of money.
 

XC90

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The original EGIP plan was for 6tph 6 carriage EMUs running the shuttle. That required major expenditure across the route, plus the loss of the Anniesland shuttles into Queen Street. It was then calculated that a more cost-efficient way to deliver the same benefits would be to extend platforms to 8 carriages without adding more services. The extra infrastructure components have been dropped, but there is nothing stopping them being constructed in future. Indeed, the two major enhancements planned - the Greenhill Junction works and the Dalmeny/Almond Chord - are still included in Network Rail's long term planning. Both schemes will likely go ahead in the 2019-2024 timescale.

If the rebuild of Queen Street had gone ahead without the plan to extend trains to 8 carriages, then it would have been prohibitively expensive to extend platforms later on. Therefore, by extending platforms first, it enables all the service improvements originally planned to be combined with longer trains for even greater benefit, while the other way around would not have allowed this. In addition, without the platform extension works at Queen Street it may well not have been possible to use shortened HSTs on InterCity runs, meaning that these would suffer too due to the use of D(E)MUs with underfloor engines.

As the Waverley Railway Act demanded that the whole line be built, or none of it, there is little that can be done to reduce expenditure other than reducing the amount of double-tracking. Would you rather have no railway at all, or a railway delayed even longer, or one which has actually been built despite being of dubious BCR? If you wanted to spend even more money on a gold-plated line that would have meant spending less money on some other worthy cause, and the role of a government is to make these sorts of hard decisions. If you can get 95% of the benefit for only 70% of the cost (for example), then that cost saving can be used to spend money on other schemes to benefit the country even more.

GARL was a simply woeful scheme which made no and still does not make any sense whatsoever. Most of the business case was to do with the wider Paisley Corridor improvements necessary to deliver it, and those works still went ahead. The expensive viaduct over the playing fields and the M8 would only have seen a tiny number of passengers. Instead of being empty after Paisley Gilmour Street, these trains now continue on to where people actually live, providing a better transport system for the vast majority of people in Scotland. If you want to improve the accessibility of Glasgow Airport for people in Glasgow you would be better off funding better bus links from across the city, rather than providing a shuttle service into the city centre where very few people actually live. The few passengers who do need to go between them can be dealt with more efficiently by buses, taxis or some other transport system which can justify its existence with other passengers doing other journeys. A tram line from the city centre to the Airport via the hospital, Braehead and Renfrew would be a much better use of money.

Ah well. I'm sure the people of Cumbernauld and towns on the borders line will understand. There is no room to expand the double track now because of the structures built to prohibit this, unless pulling them down and rebuilding them is a viable cost effective option.

I agree with the tram link though, or a guided busway through Braehead and Renfrew. Disagree that only a handful of customers would use the train between Paisley and the airport.

Massive expansion is on the cards for Glasgow airport and a definitive, easy and quick public transport system for people connecting from across the central belt is essential.
 

clc

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Ah well. I'm sure the people of Cumbernauld and towns on the borders line will understand. There is no room to expand the double track now because of the structures built to prohibit this, unless pulling them down and rebuilding them is a viable cost effective option.

I agree with the tram link though, or a guided busway through Braehead and Renfrew. Disagree that only a handful of customers would use the train between Paisley and the airport.

Massive expansion is on the cards for Glasgow airport and a definitive, easy and quick public transport system for people connecting from across the central belt is essential.

The business case showed that passenger numbers on that section would be low. The scheme was heavily dependent on Paisley-Glasgow commuters.
 

NotATrainspott

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Ah well. I'm sure the people of Cumbernauld and towns on the borders line will understand. There is no room to expand the double track now because of the structures built to prohibit this, unless pulling them down and rebuilding them is a viable cost effective option.

More benefit will be had by upgrading the line between Waverley and Portobello Junction than spending it on the Borders route alone. Most of the timetable problems are to do with this section, and money spent fixing them would benefit more people. Spending money on simply extending the twin-track sections involves the law of diminishing returns as eventually, even a fully two-track railway won't solve every problem.

There is absolutely nothing that has been done to prevent the works at Cumbernauld going ahead. People in Cumbernauld are getting an even better service than was previously planned, with 4tph to Glasgow and 2tph to Edinburgh for the first time ever. If the Motherwell/Argyle Line services are extended further to Stirling once the wires go up it'll benefit even more.
 

route:oxford

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The business case showed that passenger numbers on that section would be low. The scheme was heavily dependent on Paisley-Glasgow commuters.

Did the business case also show the passenger numbers that choose not to use Britain's worst connected (without a rail or tram connection) major airport?
 

najaB

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Did the business case also show the passenger numbers that choose not to use Britain's worst connected (without a rail or tram connection) major airport?
None of East Midlands, Bristol or Luton are directly rail-connected and all seem to do okay.
 

Agent_c

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Did the business case also show the passenger numbers that choose not to use Britain's worst connected (without a rail or tram connection) major airport?

There's a shuttle bus every 15 minutes, that takes about that. I can't see a tram or train improving on the service.
 

XC90

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More benefit will be had by upgrading the line between Waverley and Portobello Junction than spending it on the Borders route alone. Most of the timetable problems are to do with this section, and money spent fixing them would benefit more people. Spending money on simply extending the twin-track sections involves the law of diminishing returns as eventually, even a fully two-track railway won't solve every problem.

There is absolutely nothing that has been done to prevent the works at Cumbernauld going ahead. People in Cumbernauld are getting an even better service than was previously planned, with 4tph to Glasgow and 2tph to Edinburgh for the first time ever. If the Motherwell/Argyle Line services are extended further to Stirling once the wires go up it'll benefit even more.

You miss the point. When disruption ensues that 4 per hour to glasgow (one hourly via Motherwell which is often terminated at MOtherwell or Coatbridge because its late) becomes 1 from Falkirk and 1 via Motherwell service. Services to Glasgow have become less reliable and take longer. Some progress that!

Often the Falkirk train is taken out because of the congestion through Carmuirs leaving us 1 long journey journey via Motherwell whilst the other 2tph turn at Springburn.

I wonder if the Improvements you mention will be subject to change, just like EGIP? Delivering only some of the improvements is not what gets parties elected is it?
 

Carntyne

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Did the business case also show the passenger numbers that choose not to use Britain's worst connected (without a rail or tram connection) major airport?

The bus link is tremendous to be fair, it's rapid even when the M8 is packed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
More benefit will be had by upgrading the line between Waverley and Portobello Junction than spending it on the Borders route alone. Most of the timetable problems are to do with this section, and money spent fixing them would benefit more people. Spending money on simply extending the twin-track sections involves the law of diminishing returns as eventually, even a fully two-track railway won't solve every problem.

That's on the cards I think.
 

clc

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Did the business case also show the passenger numbers that choose not to use Britain's worst connected (without a rail or tram connection) major airport?

The business case used demand estimates from the DfT's Aviation White Paper which envisaged passenger numbers at Glasgow hitting 10.4 million in 2015 and 15.4 million in 2030. Given that actual passenger numbers in 2015 were 8.7 million it's clear these estimates were optimistic.
 

NotATrainspott

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You miss the point. When disruption ensues that 4 per hour to glasgow (one hourly via Motherwell which is often terminated at MOtherwell or Coatbridge because its late) becomes 1 from Falkirk and 1 via Motherwell service. Services to Glasgow have become less reliable and take longer. Some progress that!

Often the Falkirk train is taken out because of the congestion through Carmuirs leaving us 1 long journey journey via Motherwell whilst the other 2tph turn at Springburn.

I wonder if the Improvements you mention will be subject to change, just like EGIP? Delivering only some of the improvements is not what gets parties elected is it?

The plan for Cumbernauld (as far as we can make out on this forum) is for 2tph to come from Queen Street HL and run via Cumbernauld and Falkirk Grahamston as a stopping service to Edinburgh. The remaining 2tph will be the trains reversing at Springburn. Originally the plan was that these reversing trains would cease once the electric Queen Street HL services begin but now, it looks like they'll be a permanent fixture. It's a pure improvement over the previous plans, as the same direct service will exist while there will also be a direct, albeit slower, train that will provide a link to the North Clyde and Argyle Line networks. If these reversing trains have to be turned back at Springburn during disruption it is no great problem given that there would still be the 2tph service that EGIP planned for. Alternatively, or additionally, diverted E&G services could call at Cumbernauld and Springburn to ensure that onward connectivity is preserved.

The components removed from EGIP will have to be built in order to maximise the benefits of the other schemes under development across Scotland. For instance, providing a grade-separated connection from the E&G towards Larbert will be crucial for services between Glasgow and the north and north east of the country. By simplifying timetable planning on the busier section, it is easier to timetable Aberdeen and Inverness services to run faster and to minimise the impact of the single line sections on those routes. The Almond/Dalmeny Chord scheme will be essential for the increasing demands on the southern lines through Haymarket. It has been theorised that one of the reasons why the SNP have not committed to new 'sexy' rail schemes like Levenmouth is that they know the limited funding available to spend has to go on 'unsexy' things like Greenhill and the Almond Chord.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The business case used demand estimates from the DfT's Aviation White Paper which envisaged passenger numbers at Glasgow hitting 10.4 million in 2015 and 15.4 million in 2030. Given that actual passenger numbers in 2015 were 8.7 million it's clear these estimates were optimistic.

It's also worth noting that a good proportion of the passenger numbers through Glasgow are leisure flights which tend to leave early in the day and benefit the least from a heavy rail link. Heathrow has enough passengers through the day needing to get to/from the airport from the city centre to make a frequent 4tph non-stop service not a complete waste of time and money.
 

Altnabreac

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You miss the point. When disruption ensues that 4 per hour to glasgow (one hourly via Motherwell which is often terminated at MOtherwell or Coatbridge because its late) becomes 1 from Falkirk and 1 via Motherwell service. Services to Glasgow have become less reliable and take longer. Some progress that!

Often the Falkirk train is taken out because of the congestion through Carmuirs leaving us 1 long journey journey via Motherwell whilst the other 2tph turn at Springburn.

I wonder if the Improvements you mention will be subject to change, just like EGIP? Delivering only some of the improvements is not what gets parties elected is it?

The other issue with Cumbernauld is that it does not generate as much demand as you'd expect because a lot of people use Croy instead.

As others have pointed out the current service is temporary so it will be interesting to see if a 4tph all electric service will start to eat into some of that displaced Croy demand.

I'd also like to see North Lanarkshire Council promoting a new Abronhill station but that seems to have disappeared off the radar completely. Hopefully once there is a potential 2tph service to Glasgow (plus 1tph to Motherwell / Stirling) the business case will be better than with only 1tph.
 

Starmill

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What does Middle-Eastern Conflict have to do with UK Road or Rail infrastrucuture? Nothing.
 

kylemore

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As the Waverley Railway Act demanded that the whole line be built, or none of it, there is little that can be done to reduce expenditure other than reducing the amount of double-tracking. Would you rather have no railway at all, or a railway delayed even longer, or one which has actually been built despite being of dubious BCR? If you wanted to spend even more money on a gold-plated line that would have meant spending less money on some other worthy cause, and the role of a government is to make these sorts of hard decisions. If you can get 95% of the benefit for only 70% of the cost (for example), then that cost saving can be used to spend money on other schemes to benefit the country even more.

.

Not only that, as most trains are formed of two car units and the platforms are capable of accommodating six car trains capacity can be doubled or tripled without the need for more infrastructure. And even if it was required to go beyond that, it would be relatively cheaper to extend the platforms for eight or nine cars, rather than construct more double track.
 
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