HST's future careers

[Kettledrum]

Could East Midland's trains Liverpool to Norwich service be HST in the future?

 

[The Ham]

Would HSTs be more suitable for Waterloo-Exeter if they were reconfigured to 2+9 with 8 standard and 1 first? That that would give about 640 standard seats and maybe ok for peak time Waterloo-Salisbury displacing more 158/159s to strengthen Exeters?

The big problem with HST's for Waterloo to Salisbury is that given the gauge clearance works being undertaken to make it a diversion route for freight between Southamton and Basingstoke is that it then become a "cheap" route to electrify. As such and HST's that reach there in say 2018 are likely to only be there for a short time, so will not recoup the cost associated with carrying out any work to them.

Also to run a 9+2 HST would require platforms of 243m (13m longer than a 10 coach train of a mix of 159's and 158's), which could further limit the number that platforms at Waterloo that such a service could use.

 

[BestWestern]

I was chatting to a mobile tech recently who had some 'interesting' gossip/rumours. Allegedly Angel Trains have actually looked into the feasibility of fitting panto gear to their 43s, along with AC traction motors. Highly unlikely to happen I would think, but presumably it would be technically possible if they wanted to do it. Plenty of space in the luggage van end, and nothing much up on the roof above it. Still, I'd be very surprised if an AC HST appears anywhere!

 

[RobShipway]

I was chatting to a mobile tech recently who had some 'interesting' gossip/rumours. Allegedly Angel Trains have actually looked into the feasibility of fitting panto gear to their 43s, along with AC traction motors. Highly unlikely to happen I would think, but presumably it would be technically possible if they wanted to do it. Plenty of space in the luggage van end, and nothing much up on the roof above it. Still, I'd be very surprised if an AC HST appears anywhere!

How much would it cost to rebuild the Class 43's to have a pantograph on top with the AC traction motors etc... in the luggage van?

I would suspect also that the Mk3's would have to be rebuilt to have the luggage area included within the same coach as the Guard's office and if you do this the doors could be changed to be power operated like the Chiltern Mk3's?

 

[jopsuk]

Could East Midland's trains Liverpool to Norwich service be HST in the future?

Short answer: No

Medium answer: Have you been reading any of why HSTs are not suitable for most routes that have been suggested?

Long answer: the western part of the service may need a bit more capacity, or at least needs to be four carriages consistently, but most of the time the eastern end of the route is fine with two carriages on an hourly basis (there's also hourly GA & XC services Peterborough-Ely and hourly GA services Ely-Norwich).

The eastern part of the route contains very long stretches where trains using SP speeds can travel faster. This is unlikely to change. The route has very little, as far as I know, where anything can do more than 90mph. 158s are near ideal- perhaps 3-car ones, doubled on the western half, would be perfect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How much would it cost to rebuild the Class 43's to have a pantograph on top with the AC traction motors etc... in the luggage van?

I would suspect also that the Mk3's would have to be rebuilt to have the luggage area included within the same coach as the Guard's office and if you do this the doors could be changed to be power operated like the Chiltern Mk3's?

If you to provide all the luggage space in the TGS, you'd have almost no seating area left. The conversion would likely be very expensive, especially with the limited service life of the coaches and the Class 43 chassis.

 

[starrymarkb]

The attempts to save HSTs are getting more desperate and creative... I'd face that they've had 40 years service which is pretty good going for a diesel and now their time has come...

Now if IEP was specified with interiors like the German ICE I'd certainly welcome them...

 

[DarloRich]

The attempts to save HSTs are getting more desperate and creative... I'd face that they've had 40 years service which is pretty good going for a diesel and now their time has come...

Now if IEP was specified with interiors like the German ICE I'd certainly welcome them...

Which is fine if they are replaced with some better for a passenger comfort point of view, which they wont be. That is a sad indictment on the designers of today.

 

[Class172]

The attempts to save HSTs are getting more desperate and creative... I'd face that they've had 40 years service which is pretty good going for a diesel and now their time has come...

Now if IEP was specified with interiors like the German ICE I'd certainly welcome them...

Gas turbine!!

 

[starrymarkb]

Which is fine if they are replaced with some better for a passenger comfort point of view, which they wont be. That is a sad indictment on the designers of today.

Hence why I said if they were built to ICE spec...

 

[jopsuk]

The attempts to save HSTs are getting more desperate and creative....

Greenford Shuttle! Stourbridge Branchline! Lymington! GOBLIN!

 

[RobShipway]

Liverpool to Norwich would be better I think with 4 car class 172's which would then displace the class 158's on this route to replace some class 142/143 trains.

But I take StarrymarkB's point, that I think by the time IEP trains come on service, the HST's certainly on the GWML will be over 40 years old, so they have had a good innings. I just hope that a complete set is saved and used on a preserved railway line somehwere when they are retired.

 

[starrymarkb]

Gas turbine!!

If they were Gas Turbine they'd have been replaced sooner. Gas Turbines are not exactly frugal with Fuel... IIRC the French RTG (which makes Valentas sound silent...) would drink about 5 Tonnes of fuel per trip!

 

[Muzer]

Greenford Shuttle! Stourbridge Branchline! Lymington! GOBLIN!

Crossrail!

 

[The Ham]

greenford shuttle! Stourbridge branchline! Lymington! Goblin!

crossrail!

hs2!!

 

[Class172]

Surely with the Stourbridge shuttle you'd be able to walk from one end of the train to the other, to complete the journey!?

 

[nathanclass323]

hs2!!

Derwent Valley! Robin Hood! Merseyrail!

 

[CockneySparrow]

Could East Midland's trains Liverpool to Norwich service be HST in the future?

No, some of the platforms are too small on route such as March

 

[Goatboy]

No, some of the platforms are too small on route such as March

Many of the platforms served by HST's are too small? They just use selective door opening.

 

[Kettledrum]

Short answer: No

Medium answer: Have you been reading any of why HSTs are not suitable for most routes that have been suggested?

Long answer: the western part of the service may need a bit more capacity, or at least needs to be four carriages consistently, but most of the time the eastern end of the route is fine with two carriages on an hourly basis (there's also hourly GA & XC services Peterborough-Ely and hourly GA services Ely-Norwich).

The eastern part of the route contains very long stretches where trains using SP speeds can travel faster. This is unlikely to change. The route has very little, as far as I know, where anything can do more than 90mph. 158s are near ideal- perhaps 3-car ones, doubled on the western half, would be perfect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry - I was thinking outside the box. Liverpool to Norwich is a long un-electrified route where people often complain of overcrowding.

By using some 2+5 coach HST's, you could introduce a fast inter-city service on the route serving Liverpool - Manchester Piccadilly - Sheffield - Nottingham - Grantham - Peterborough - Norwich. You would then free up some of the 158's to double up the stopping services.

The speeds and the stopping patterns I've suggested for the HST trains don't seem out of line with some of the current MML or XC HST services.

If capacity isn't required on the Eastern route, then the trains could stop at Peterborough.

Yes I have read all the reasons why the HSTs are unsuitable for other routes, but I'm still none the wiser why my suggestion would a non-starter.

More 158's might be more suitable in an ideal world, but they might not be available. HST Leasing costs should fall, as there would be little demand, guage clearance would be OK on the central section as HST's currently run on some of this already, so why would it not work?

 

[jopsuk]

The HSTs would have to use the lower line speeds for locomotive hauled sets on much of the route, as I belive much of it is passed for higher SP speeds but not not HST- a function of the track construction, more than anything else, not being up to having heavy locos running at speed.

Cutting off the route at Peterborough would remove much of the utility of having a through route- there are quite a lot of passengers don't change trains there.

 

[BestWestern]

How much would it cost to rebuild the Class 43's to have a pantograph on top with the AC traction motors etc... in the luggage van?

I would suspect also that the Mk3's would have to be rebuilt to have the luggage area included within the same coach as the Guard's office and if you do this the doors could be changed to be power operated like the Chiltern Mk3's?

The 'luggage' van in the back end of a 43 is seldom used in normal operation. There are racks (on ours, anyway) for three bikes, and that's about all you'll ever see in there. That only happens if they bikes are boarded at either the starting point or somewhere with several minutes dwell time and are heading all the way to the end of the line - it causes delays otherwise. Every now and again you'll see a stupidly busy weekend service (usually heading up from the west country on a sunday) and the TM might decide to sling some suitcases in there, but not very often. Or you might find the catering bods wheeling s buffet fridge into there if it needs a day out, but again it's not a regular occurrence. So if any such plan was to go ahead (unlikely), there would be no need to find an equivalent space elsewhere. The replacement stock is very unlikely to have a great big van full of fresh air at either end I would imagine, just the usual modest racks and a couple of cycles spaces somewhere.

I should add that I was simply repeating gossip that I had heard and which was obviously of relevance here, I agree with other posters that such a plan is extremely unlikely to happen.

 

[HSTEd]

You would have to rip the roof off the power car, fit a transformer and rectifier stack into the luggage van and then somehow plug the output into the normal traction system without trashing it.
Or fit an all new traction system which would put the cost of the rebuild up even higher.

 

[eps200]

Is there even a heritage outfit that could save them, take the best powercars and least rotten carriages and make say two sets to preserve, break up the rest for parts?

 

[nathanclass323]

Apologies if this has already been said, but as the powercars have recently had an overhaul, couldn't new carriages be built? Unpractical I know but just a thought? I can't imagine Porterbrook (or whoever leases the HST Mk3s) doing an overhaul on the HST Mk3s like is planned to be done for the LHCS

 

[DDB]

I would have thought they would make ideal trains for charter operators.

If they can pick up the best examples they must be in better shape than some of the mk1 and mk2 stock currently being used.

Judging by how much people on this forum seem to love HSTs I would have thought their would be a nostalgia market for those who remember them from their youth just like there is for steam trains.

It must also make charter operations a lot easier if you have a train you can drive from both ends and so can easily cope with reversals but don't have network rail worrying you are going to set fire to the lineside.

I assume the fact that Network Rails HST based test train has gone all over the network there are very few places a HST can't go.

DDB

 

[IanXC]

Presumably the last HST to grace the metals will be the NR 'Flying Banana', which by their fleet standards is pretty cutting edge! Would they have any use for another one I wonder?

Yes, I would have thought it will be the last in regular network use! I suspect there may be use for another NMT, with the technology it uses becoming more reliable and important (eg Plain Line Pattern Recognition), and the number of lines with line speeds faster than the other test trains increasing. The NMTs advantage is operating at line speed and so not demolishing paths on the mainlines, given that the aim seems to be for it to pass over each bit of track (on "its mainline patch") once per month, I would have thought that it won't be too long before that starts to be a problem.

Although they do already have a spare power car.

 

[Monkey Magic]

Regarding stops:

A Hereford to Paddington train makes between 15-18 stops on its journey. The first 14-15 in the first two hours between Hereford and Oxford.

The HST I'm sure will find a use however, we will probably see a much smaller fleet.

Much will depend on IEP being delivered on time and working.

 

[HSTEd]

There will probably also be a power car and trailer set that will be rewired to work with the prototype power car so it can be put into a formation and run the way it was intended.

 

[sprinterguy]

Is there even a heritage outfit that could save them, take the best powercars and least rotten carriages and make say two sets to preserve, break up the rest for parts?

That would be the 125 Group, the leading proponents of HST preservation.

 

[tbtc]

Knowing what the preservation movement is, we'll probably see a dozen HSTs "saved" (though maybe only a handful will be fit for full linespeed running after a couple of years).

And they'll probably all be in either "Swallow" or "Blue/Grey" livery too.