HS2: onward connections from Birmingham?

[peteb]

The hourly TfW train from Birmingham International to North Wales still calls at Shrewsbury.

The expectation of changing at Birmingham Interchange would be that you'd catch the new Rail Link from Interchange to International Station. To be honest, I'd rather that than have to go from Curzon Street to New Street

I wonder how long the rail link interchange between HS2 and old WCML will take at International?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2024 ==

The tunnel is bus, taxi and bicycles only. A future step could be electric buses and taxis, and bicycles only.

No the tunnel has a wide pavement on the left hand side as you walk towards New Street.

Ah yes, my favourite. Classism

I don't think it's being classist. The truth is that at certain times the tunnel is frequented by people asking for money. That can be off putting if you're alone and it's a night. I've never seen a police patrol walk through the tunnel. There is however a "safer" route through the shopping centre which remains open till about 10pm. Problem is this involves several changes of level with escalators, stairs or lift, not so good with luggage.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

There is however a "safer" route through the shopping centre which remains open till about 10pm. Problem is this involves several changes of level with escalators, stairs or lift, not so good with luggage.

Also, open until 10pm isn't much good for people changing trains late at night. And I'm not familiar with that route, but would I be correct in guessing that it would be almost impossible to follow it without getting lost if you don't already know the area?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah yes, my favourite. Classism

I don't think aggressive beggars and drunks are classism (you get drunks of all classes, and they are equally undesirable). It's antisocial behaviour.

If that tunnel is to be the main thoroughfare it will need to be tidied up substantially and have policing (or private security) for the full period of service and a short while afterwards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2024 ==

I don't think it's being classist. The truth is that at certain times the tunnel is frequented by people asking for money. That can be off putting if you're alone and it's a night. I've never seen a police patrol walk through the tunnel. There is however a "safer" route through the shopping centre which remains open till about 10pm. Problem is this involves several changes of level with escalators, stairs or lift, not so good with luggage.

I (6' 4" heavily built bloke) don't like it. I doubt many slight women for instance would be happy to walk through there alone at night. That's not OK.

 

[Nova1]

If that tunnel is to be the main thoroughfare it will need to be tidied up substantially and have policing (or private security) for the full period of service and a short while afterwards.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Jun 2024 ==

I seem to remember Birmingham City Council promising they'd sort it out ages ago, they still haven't.
Not even the basics, it isn't well lit, and despite there being very very little motor traffic there (I think buses only), the pavement is super narrow with a wall so you can't even step out into the road.

Just widening the pavement and improved lighting would probably be enough.
It's also worth noting the "Moor St Link" down the side of New Street is just as bad, this seems to be number one homeless/drug dealer hangout spot. I always walk along the main plaza.


New St itself is still a bit of a nightmare, regularly you are harassed for money or the "knife crime" "charity" workers who managed to find their way up from London. I on more than one occasion have been followed into the station all the way up to the ticket barriers by people asking for money!

 

[Cross City]

There is however a "safer" route through the shopping centre which remains open till about 10pm. Problem is this involves several changes of level with escalators, stairs or lift, not so good with luggage.

Also, open until 10pm isn't much good for people changing trains late at night. And I'm not familiar with that route, but would I be correct in guessing that it would be almost impossible to follow it without getting lost if you don't already know the area?

There is also the outdoors up-and-over route which pretty much follows the tunnel route and avoids the shopping centre. Takes you right past the bull statue and down the side of the Rotunda It has ramps at both sides and is well lit all night.

Road tunnel in red and the over the top route is in green

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also worth noting the "Moor St Link" down the side of New Street is just as bad, this seems to be number one homeless/drug dealer hangout spot. I always walk along the main plaza.

Never even knew that existed. The main plaza is the natural way to walk - indeed that "Moor St Link" would have you walk further than the main plaza if headed for the pedestrian side of the tunnel.

"Up and over" does work but it's very up, not likely to be desirable for people with luggage etc.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

One note on the "up and over" route is that Swan Passage by the Rotunda is currently full of scaffolding, there as a precaution in case any more windows fall off... ‍♂️

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Never even knew that existed.

Nor me. Whenever I've had to transfer between New St and Moor St, I've always taken the tunnel ('red' route on @Cross City's map). I felt pretty unhappy with the experience of walking through the road tunnel, but was unaware that there was any alternative.

If I'm ever in a position to explore the green route, I will. Unfortunately though, even though I naturally like exploring, the time constraint of changing trains plus often having heavy luggage is not conducive to looking round for alternative routes.

 

[takno]

I seem to remember Birmingham City Council promising they'd sort it out ages ago, they still haven't.
Not even the basics, it isn't well lit, and despite there being very very little motor traffic there (I think buses only), the pavement is super narrow with a wall so you can't even step out into the road.

Just widening the pavement and improved lighting would probably be enough.
It's also worth noting the "Moor St Link" down the side of New Street is just as bad, this seems to be number one homeless/drug dealer hangout spot. I always walk along the main plaza.

View attachment 159680
New St itself is still a bit of a nightmare, regularly you are harassed for money or the "knife crime" "charity" workers who managed to find their way up from London. I on more than one occasion have been followed into the station all the way up to the ticket barriers by people asking for money!

I wouldn't dream of using the Moor Street link. Out of the main entrance, straight over Smallbrook Queensway, and through the tunnel on the other side of the road is faster.

 

[Geezertronic]

I wonder how long the rail link interchange between HS2 and old WCML will take at International?

The details are in this link which indicates Interchange to Birmingham airport in 6 minutes which I think is optimistic if there are stops at NEC and International before that

HS2 reveals designs for Automated People Mover

New driver-less transport system will connect the Interchange Station with new stops at Birmingham Airport, Birmingham International Station, and the National Exhibition Centre (NEC).

www.gov.uk

Automated People Mover (APM): at a glance

• Services every 3 minutes
• Interchange to Birmingham airport in 6 minutes
• 2.3 kilometre long route from Interchange to Birmingham Airport
• Approximately 20 metre long vehicles
• Capable of carrying 2,100 passengers per hour in each direction
• Travel on a viaduct for entire route – 12 metres off the ground at its highest point

 

[Nottingham59]

The details are in this link which indicates Interchange to Birmingham airport in 6 minutes which I think is optimistic if there are stops at NEC and International before that

How long does the new people mover take from Luton Airport station to the Airport? That's about 1.8km as far as I can judge.

And is 100 people every 3 minutes enough capacity to cope with what will be a very peaky pattern of demand?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long does the new people mover take from Luton Airport station to the Airport? That's about 1.8km as far as I can judge.

And is 100 people every 3 minutes enough capacity to cope with what will be a very peaky pattern of demand?

It might see a bit of queueing when an NEC event is on that is attractive to people coming from London or the North West rather than just more local demand. For the airport itself I'd think plenty - it's very much a regional airport with very little point travelling to it from London or Manchester as they have other airports with far more services.

I very much doubt Birmingham would in conjunction with HS2 become another de-facto London airport simply because it's unlikely HS2 will be cheap enough for that to be attractive. Budget airline passengers are very, very price sensitive and if travelling from London are most likely to be on West Midlands Trains services, while legacy airlines will likely stick to Heathrow and Gatwick as that's the established demand.

In short, yes, I think it'll be plenty.

 

[The Planner]

The details are in this link which indicates Interchange to Birmingham airport in 6 minutes which I think is optimistic if there are stops at NEC and International before that

HS2 reveals designs for Automated People Mover

New driver-less transport system will connect the Interchange Station with new stops at Birmingham Airport, Birmingham International Station, and the National Exhibition Centre (NEC).

www.gov.uk

Its an average speed of 23Km/h or 14mph over the distance. 30 second dwells at the stations leaves you 4½ minutes to do the journey, 30Km/h or 19mph between the stations. Doesn't sound that outlandish.

 

[class26]

It might see a bit of queueing when an NEC event is on that is attractive to people coming from London or the North West rather than just more local demand. For the airport itself I'd think plenty - it's very much a regional airport with very little point travelling to it from London or Manchester as they have other airports with far more services.

I very much doubt Birmingham would in conjunction with HS2 become another de-facto London airport simply because it's unlikely HS2 will be cheap enough for that to be attractive. Budget airline passengers are very, very price sensitive and if travelling from London are most likely to be on West Midlands Trains services, while legacy airlines will likely stick to Heathrow and Gatwick as that's the established demand.

In short, yes, I think it'll be plenty.

You have an insight into HS2 fares then ?

 

[Trainman40083]

Not sure that would be possible. You'd probably have to go deeper than the Moor Street-Snow Hill tunnel, then you'd risk getting into the southern end of the New Street lines and the Bull Ring foundations. A service walkway would be better, although the expectation that a properly signposted surface walkway should be the way to go

I think by the time it is built, I'd be using the tran between stations.

 

[peteb]

I think by the time it is built, I'd be using the tran between stations.

I do hope I live long enough to see that proposed tram built and running..........

 

[Trainman40083]

I do hope I live long enough to see that proposed tram built and running..........

I suspect it would be difficult to build it through a building site

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I do hope I live long enough to see that proposed tram built and running..........

Well they're well on their way. The base for the tracks and the stop towards the front of the station look like they are underway. Obviously the stop that goes under the station on its way to Digbeth won't be started for a while

 

[Taunton]

It does just seem to be a feature of current generation new high-speed lines to build stations in out-of-the way places which, to the surprise of nobody except their well-paid designers and various groups of local politicians, turn out to be pretty useless. Generally because the design side have nobody with any commercial understanding.

- French TGV "beetroot stations", built in the middle of nowhere in the countryside.
- HS1 Stratford station, never even completed.
- Now Birmingham, unconnected, not easily accessible from elsewhere except by car. The city council meanwhile hates cars and is trying to ban them, so that's that.

 

[Fidelis]

It does just seem to be a feature of current generation new high-speed lines to build stations in out-of-the way places which, to the surprise of nobody except their well-paid designers and various groups of local politicians, turn out to be pretty useless. Generally because the design side have nobody with any commercial understanding.

- French TGV "beetroot stations", built in the middle of nowhere in the countryside.
- HS1 Stratford station, never even completed.
- Now Birmingham, unconnected, not easily accessible from elsewhere except by car. The city council meanwhile hates cars and is trying to ban them, so that's that.

Curzon Street isn't in the "middle of Nowhere" as I can catch a train from Worcester to Moor Street and then walk across the bridge linking to Curzon Street so no need for a car. Plus my friends in Birmingham can catch a tram directly to Curzon Street station when built.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Curzon Street isn't in the "middle of Nowhere" as I can catch a train from Worcester to Moor Street and then walk across the bridge linking to Curzon Street so no need for a car. Plus my friends in Birmingham can catch a tram directly to Curzon Street station when built.

It's also on the bus gate, which although not accessible currently due to tramline works, normally has a great many services at high frequencies.

 

[pedr]

Is there any chance of connections to/from the north at Birmingham International/Birmingham Interchange? I’m not sure I understand that station, really.

 

[Nottingham59]

Is there any chance of connections to/from the north at Birmingham International/Birmingham Interchange? I’m not sure I understand that station, really.

It will be no more use for heading north than Tamworth is today. Most services in the indiciative HS2 timetable won't stop, so there will only be an hourly service to most places.

 

[Trainman40083]

It will be no more use for heading north than Tamworth is today. Most services in the indiciative HS2 timetable won't stop, so there will only be an hourly service to most places.

Be interesting to see how this proposed service from around Kings Norton to Moor Street develops if it extends towards Castle Bromwich and Tamworth. I would imagine we shall see the same as St Pancras saw when Eurostar/HS1 arrived. Went from Nothing there, to totally redeveloped.

 

[Taunton]

Curzon Street isn't in the "middle of Nowhere" as I can catch a train from Worcester to Moor Street and then walk across the bridge linking to Curzon Street so no need for a car. Plus my friends in Birmingham can catch a tram directly to Curzon Street station when built.

However, if someone is going from London to Worcester they will ... er ... travel from Paddington. One wonders then if they are the same station why the new platforms were not called Moor Street. Possibly because they are different. The distance looks similar to Gare du Nord to Gare de l'East in Paris, which, in the unlikely event you are not mugged along the way, looks a similar transit time. Meanwhile the suburban service from Moor Street to Worcester, which runs out of the city heading north-west, whereas Worcester is south-west (same direction as the principal route there, from New Street) has a dozen or so stops along the way as it conducts its lethargic sightseeing trip of the Black Country. 21st Century travel? Hmmm ...

 

[The Ham]

However, if someone is going from London to Worcester they will ... er ... travel from Paddington. One wonders then if they are the same station why the new platforms were not called Moor Street. Possibly because they are different. The distance looks similar to Gare du Nord to Gare de l'East in Paris, which, in the unlikely event you are not mugged along the way, looks a similar transit time. Meanwhile the suburban service from Moor Street to Worcester, which runs out of the city heading north-west, whereas Worcester is south-west (same direction as the principal route there, from New Street) has a dozen or so stops along the way as it conducts its lethargic sightseeing trip of the Black Country. 21st Century travel? Hmmm ...

Google maps suggests that the Birmingham interchange would be around 300m whilst the Paris one is around 550m.

 

[The Planner]

However, if someone is going from London to Worcester they will ... er ... travel from Paddington. One wonders then if they are the same station why the new platforms were not called Moor Street. Possibly because they are different. The distance looks similar to Gare du Nord to Gare de l'East in Paris, which, in the unlikely event you are not mugged along the way, looks a similar transit time. Meanwhile the suburban service from Moor Street to Worcester, which runs out of the city heading north-west, whereas Worcester is south-west (same direction as the principal route there, from New Street) has a dozen or so stops along the way as it conducts its lethargic sightseeing trip of the Black Country. 21st Century travel? Hmmm ...

You assume a faster Worcester service isnt going to be provided by Midlands Rail Hub via Bromsgrove.

 

[miami]

Google maps suggests that the Birmingham interchange would be around 300m whilst the Paris one is around 550m.

Doesn't it depend which end of the train you are on?

The big question is is it an in-station interchange like Waterloo-Waterloo East, or an out of station interchange like Wigan Walgate to Wigan NW.

The former is far far better, regardless of the distance.

 

[Krokodil]

Google maps suggests that the Birmingham interchange would be around 300m whilst the Paris one is around 550m.

From Moor St maybe, but from New St it's closer to 1km.

 

[Taunton]

Worcester was a bit of a poor example to choose, having two separate city stations with services split between them, now joined by a third suburban station, all three having separate hourly services from Birmingham, let alone its own established direct London service to Paddington. It seems unrealistic to pin hopes on yet another service from Moor Street via Bromsgrove, for which tracks don't even exist beyond some crayonista imagination.

More straightforward to consider Wolverhampton, Walsall, Shrewsbury ... all significant regional places, only served (and servable) from New Street.