HS2 Old Oak Common

[zwk500]

I think I must have misunderstood, I thought the first batch of trains were going to be UK gauge so they could continue over conventional lines to Manchester etc. UIC size ones would only follow when line reaches Manchester allowing the earlier ones to continue to serve cities off the HS route

The first batch of trains are going to be UK gauge, you are right. But my point was that however you build the trains, it's not hard to specify the doors in the same place as every other train. However given the platform differences between UK and UIC gauge trains I don't see any future fleet being UIC-GB either, UK gauge trains will be what is used for the long term, IMHO.

I also thought they were supposed to be making it future proof for 120 years hence standard ECTS and ability for European new generation TGVs etc to run if they meet long tunnel safety rules and eventually UK joins Schengen (even if it is 20, 30, 40 years from today)

It meets the TSIs or whatever the UK now calls them so that standard stock can in theory be procured but there is certainly no plan for through operation from the Continent, as shown by there being no UIC-gauge link line from HS1.

All of which suggests won't be one standard fleet for decades

Having 1 set of door positions is not the same as one fleet.

 

[Horizon22]

So am I correct in thinking that the classic lines are going to have to have platform doors? If so then surely all GWR mainline trains will have to be driven by autopilot (ie like crossrail). Drivers cannot expect to stop that accurately 100 percent of the time. This would add millions to the project surely equipping the GWR fleet with automatic control. Or am I reading this wrong?

No they wouldn’t. Would only be individual platforms for HS2z It’s also a key element for new sub-surface stations so it makes sense as there will also be some automatic control

 

[snowball]

I assume it's unclear now whether there will ever be any captive HS2 trains, as (unless a longer eastern arm is reinstated) the only potential routes for them would be between London, Birmingham and Manchester.

 

[Snow1964]

There will be HS2 chance to view proposed train crew building on Tuesday 1st Aug, including chance to use the viewing platform.

Confusingly referred to as drop in, but then says booking essential

Join our drop-in engagement session at the Old Oak Common site visitors centre Tuesday 1 August between 4pm and 7:30pm.

This event will provide information about the design of the train crew and catering building which has been submitted to OPDC for Schedule 17 planning consent.

This event will include:
• Information about the design of the train crew and catering building
• An opportunity to ask the team questions
• An opportunity to visit the viewing platform

This event is an opportunity to ask the team questions and find out more information about the train crew and catering building Schedule 17 application that has been submitted to OPDC for determination. The application is live here -https://planning.agileapplications.co.uk/opdc/application-details/10169

Join us between 4pm and 7:30pm on 1 August 2023 at the Old Oak Common Station Site Visitor Centre, accessible via Old Oak Common Lane, NW10 6DZ

Booking is essential for security reasons. When confirming attendance, please let us know if you are planning on bringing children (under 18) with you or if you have any access requirements.

To join the event, please RSVP by emailing the BBVS Community Engagement team at community@bbvsjv.com or calling the Helpdesk on 08081 434 434.

The details of planned train crew and catering building planning application are here

Citizen Portal Planning

Come and talk to us about the Schedule 17 planning submission for the train crew and catering building

Join our drop-in engagement session at the Old Oak Common site visitors centre Tuesday 1 August between 4pm and 7:30pm. This event will provide information about the design of the train crew and catering building which has been submitted to OPDC for Schedule 17 planning consent. This event will...

www.hs2.org.uk

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Jul 2023 ==

Within the planning application for the crew depot is a very good site plan of Old Oak Common station, appears to even show the locations of electrification gantries

blob:https://planning.agileapplications.co.uk/50ad3039-f925-4c3f-8c8b-5fc91a56c4bf

(warning, very big pdf file, that really needs big screen to view)

 

[telstarbox]

Has anyone seen the train movements from Isle of Grain to the HS2 worksite carrying concrete tunnel panels?

From Rail Technology Magazine:

This section of the tunnels will require 58,000 tunnel segments, with these being manufactured on Kent’s Isle of Grain by Pacadar. These have recently been delivered by rail to the sidings at the West Ruislip site, to reduce the number of lorry journeys required.

First milestone passed for London’s HS2 tunnelling. | Rail Technology Magazine

HS2 has announced that the first milestone has been reached in the project to tunnel under London.

www.railtechnologymagazine.com

 

[swt_passenger]

Has anyone seen the train movements from Isle of Grain to the HS2 worksite carrying concrete tunnel panels?

From Rail Technology Magazine:

First milestone passed for London’s HS2 tunnelling. | Rail Technology Magazine

HS2 has announced that the first milestone has been reached in the project to tunnel under London.

www.railtechnologymagazine.com

I think here’s a video linked somewhere on this site of a tunnel segment train passing through south London. Most of the previous discussion about segment delivery seems to have been in the general HS2 tunnel progress thread, it’s not really an Old Oak Common specific matter - but I can’t find the video from searches so far...

 

[zwk500]

I think here’s a video linked somewhere on this site of a tunnel segment train passing through south London. Most of the previous discussion about segment delivery seems to have been in the general HS2 tunnel progress thread, it’s not really an Old Oak Common specific matter - but I can’t find the video from searches so far...

(Link to video of a Class 66 hauling tunnel Segments through Lewisham)

Running it appears this schedule: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H08770/2023-08-03/detailed (although the link is to today's train, which hasn't been activated yet). However it should be pointed out the West Ruislip site is unlikely to be receiving material for OOC when Willesden Euroterminal sidings are there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As I understand it, the tunnels which start boring at/near the OOC site will be supplied from Willesden with local transfer to the TBMs, using segments produced by STRABAG at Hartlepool.
That will cover the Northolt East (5.5km) and Euston tunnels (7.2km) - when they start.
Northolt West (8km, under construction) is supplied from West Ruislip, with segments delivered from Pacadar (Isle of Grain) by rail.
Bromford tunnel (5.5km), on the Birmingham branch, will use segments manufactured in Avonmouth, which I believe will be delivered by road to site.

 

[Fazaar1889]

When is OOC expected to be completed/open? Wikipedia claims 2026 but I don't know about the latest information.

 

[The Planner]

When is OOC expected to be completed/open? Wikipedia claims 2026 but I don't know about the latest information.

Whatever the latest Phase 1 date is, probably 2030.

 

[bib]

looks like there's still plenty of digging going on

 

[chris2]

Epic film of Victoria Rd Crossover box and TBM on site - presumably first of the Westward Northolt TBMs?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There's a shortlist of 5 names for the two TBMs being launched westwards from the Victoria Road shaft early next year.
Public voting closes on September 4.

Help name London’s next two giant tunnel boring machines

Tunnelling machines to be launched in early 2024 in major milestone for Britain's transformative new high-speed railway Voting closes at the end of August 2023

mediacentre.hs2.org.uk

 

[Fazaar1889]

There's a shortlist of 5 names for the two TBMs being launched westwards from the Victoria Road shaft early next year.
Public voting closes on September 4.

Help name London’s next two giant tunnel boring machines

Tunnelling machines to be launched in early 2024 in major milestone for Britain's transformative new high-speed railway Voting closes at the end of August 2023

mediacentre.hs2.org.uk

Damn, there's no Boringy McBoring face

 

[TheHSRailFan]

Damn, there's no Boringy McBoring face

I think the companies have all learnt their lessons in that...

Also, do we know what happened to TBM Lyida? The TBM creating a logistics tunnel link from Old Oak Common to the Euro Terminal freight yard. I guess it completed without fanfare or has stopped?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Also, do we know what happened to TBM Lyida? The TBM creating a logistics tunnel link from Old Oak Common to the Euro Terminal freight yard. I guess it completed without fanfare or has stopped?

No report since June 7, after a very slow initial 80m.
It was given six months or so to do the job. It's possibly boring away out of the limelight as it's not doing the main tunnels.
Or maybe going so slowly they don't want to highlight it.
In some ways it is less critical than the other TBMs, but it is needed to position the two Euston tunnel TBMs when they un-pause that part of the project.

 

[matacaster]

Let's hope the buried tunnelling machines don't get forgotten about and dumbfound archeologists in a few hundred years time.

 

[snowball]

Let's hope the buried tunnelling machines don't get forgotten about and dumbfound archeologists in a few hundred years time.

There have been some projects where a TBM has been deliberately left buried.

 

[59CosG95]

There have been some projects where a TBM has been deliberately left buried.

Crossrail as a recent case in point; "Phyllis" and "Ada" were both 'buried alive' after completing their drives to Farringdon.

 

[Snow1964]

There have been some projects where a TBM has been deliberately left buried.

Usually when worn out, or very difficult to recover at the end of a tunnel drive, the UK undersea ones were driven offroute in Channel tunnel. Although backup train was removed.

Building expensive TBMs, digging a huge hole, erecting them, then potentially abandoning them, is clearly pouring money into a hole in the ground (literally), sorry for phrase

 

[Pete_uk]

There's at least one under the English Channel I believe

 

[matacaster]

Usually when worn out, or very difficult to recover at the end of a tunnel drive, the UK undersea ones were driven offroute in Channel tunnel. Although backup train was removed.

Building expensive TBMs, digging a huge hole, erecting them, then potentially abandoning them, is clearly pouring money into a hole in the ground (literally), sorry for phrase

Interesting!

 

[zwk500]

Interesting!

Remember that the tunnel the TBM builds is of a smaller diameter than the cutting head, so you cannot just pull the TBM back in one piece. So you'd either need to send it through to the portal - fine on shortish drives, have an open-air shaft mid-tunnel (fine if you've got the land/requirement for one anyway such as a station, or have a convenient cavern such as one intended to be used for crossovers between the running tunnel. Dismantling and transporting the head will also add an element of cost to your project, so the balance between time and cost is important.
Crossrail did reuse 2 TBMs, as indicated by Arup https://www.arup.com/projects/crossrail-elizabeth-line-tunnel-design, a little way down the page.

 

[hwl]

Remember that the tunnel the TBM builds is of a smaller diameter than the cutting head, so you cannot just pull the TBM back in one piece. So you'd either need to send it through to the portal - fine on shortish drives, have an open-air shaft mid-tunnel (fine if you've got the land/requirement for one anyway such as a station, or have a convenient cavern such as one intended to be used for crossovers between the running tunnel. Dismantling and transporting the head will also add an element of cost to your project, so the balance between time and cost is important.
Crossrail did reuse 2 TBMs, as indicated by Arup https://www.arup.com/projects/crossrail-elizabeth-line-tunnel-design, a little way down the page.

And HS2 are reusing a former Crossrail machine in Birmingham where the smaller diameter isn't an issue.

TBMs are fairly geology and tunnel diameter specific so often parts get reused but not the whole. Tail parts are more reusable than head parts.

Usually when worn out, or very difficult to recover at the end of a tunnel drive, the UK undersea ones were driven offroute in Channel tunnel. Although backup train was removed.

Building expensive TBMs, digging a huge hole, erecting them, then potentially abandoning them, is clearly pouring money into a hole in the ground (literally), sorry for phrase

TBM cost is a single digit % of the whole tunnel cost for a reasonable length so you don't get massive savings from reuse. They only cost ~the equivalent of 7-8 commuter EMU vehicles .

 

[HSTEd]

It meets the TSIs or whatever the UK now calls them so that standard stock can in theory be procured but there is certainly no plan for through operation from the Continent, as shown by there being no UIC-gauge link line from HS1.

HS2 is not (fully) TSI compliant.

They abandoned the TSIs to impose their own bespoke platform height, then intiated a doomed legal action against the European authorities to try and get out of complying with the TSIs.
They were only saved from inevitable defeat by Brexit.

 

[Greybeard33]

HS2 is not (fully) TSI compliant.

They abandoned the TSIs to impose their own bespoke platform height, then intiated a doomed legal action against the European authorities to try and get out of complying with the TSIs.
They were only saved from inevitable defeat by Brexit.

I understand the HS2 tunnel design is also incompatible with standard continental HS stock. The tunnels are not ventilated in normal operation and the trains have to be sealed from atmosphere while passing through a tunnel to avoid excessive pressure fluctuations in the saloon. This arrangement enables the tunnel bores to be smaller than normal European practice.

 

[Bald Rick]

There's at least one under the English Channel I believe

There‘s six!

 

[Snow1964]

There‘s six!

Three, the English undersea TBMs were detached from back up trains (which were dismantled), parts were cut off and they were turned sharply off line, this was then backfilled with weak concrete and the French TBMs driven on line through the weak concrete taper. The French TBMs were designed to be dismantled.

Some parts including damaged segments were dumped in bottom of the Sangatte shaft (it went down another 2 levels where muck was mixed to pumpable slurry) the remaining spaces in lower shaft were filled with concrete to track level.

There was 5 landward TBMs, the French rail one was turned and bored other tunnel towards Sangatte shaft, others were removed, one of the heads was outside eurotunnel exhibition centre for years.

 

[Bald Rick]

Three, the English undersea TBMs were detached from back up trains (which were dismantled), parts were cut off and they were turned sharply off line, this was then backfilled with weak concrete and the French TBMs driven on line through the weak concrete taper. The French TBMs were designed to be dismantled.

Some parts including damaged segments were dumped in bottom of the Sangatte shaft (it went down another 2 levels where muck was mixed to pumpable slurry) the remaining spaces in lower shaft were filled with concrete to track level.

There was 5 landward TBMs, the French rail one was turned and bored other tunnel towards Sangatte shaft, others were removed, one of the heads was outside eurotunnel exhibition centre for years.

I knew I was wrong and would be corrected. Thank you!

 

[Geogregor]

Interesting article, about Victoria Road Crossover at Old Oak Common. It is fascinating how they optimized the design. Especially its shape, from initially proposed rectangular to a caterpillar :

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/in...nd-space-on-hs2s-west-london-site-25-08-2023/

HS2’s reference design involved the construction of a 250m by 33m rectangular box with a 47.5m deep, 1.8m thick continuous reinforced concrete diaphragm wall. It featured three levels of struts – 16 at each level – and 250, 1.8m diameter tension piles extending to 40m depth.

At the initial stage of the design, an optioneering process was carried out to identify potential improvements to the reference design.

“There were more than 30 different concepts for the design of VRCB, although we quickly focused on several variations of the caterpillar design as we found significant advantages over the more traditional rectangular box,” says Hall.

“The beauty of this caterpillar structure is its resistance to lateral pressure mainly by means of horizontal hoop forces developed by the arching shape of the diaphragm wall panels.

“This avoids a closely spaced strutting system needed by a conventional rectangular shaped straight diaphragm wall arrangement.”

The hoop forces are transferred to the buttress elements where each bubble connects with its neighbour. The buttresses run vertically and are supported by top and intermediate props as well as cross walls under the base slab.

Hall says this design generates compression forces on the reinforced concrete, the most efficient way to work with this material.

They also mention how the TBMs will be launched:

The first TBM for the Northolt Tunnel will be launched from inside the westernmost bubble.

A 50m SCL tunnel will connect the westernmost bubble with the Victoria Road Ancillary Shaft where the second TBM will be launched after it has been assembled in VRCB.

This shaft has an internal diameter of 2.5m and will provide ventilation and emergency access to the tunnels when HS2 is in operation.

The front part of the second TBM will be lifted directly into the ancillary shaft, while the other parts will be lifted into the crossover box and pushed through the SCL tunnel.

The end bubbles will be excavated to 25.5m below ground and the inner ones to 24.5m. The excavation of the westernmost bubble was prioritised as it will be handed over to the tunnelling teams this autumn. Now that this bubble has been fully excavated, construction of its base slab has started.