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HS2 in the press

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HSTEd

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The PM doesn't actually do anything to deserve a large paypacket.
He is paid to sit around and give speeches and meet foreign dignitaries.
 
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jon0844

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That's a joke, right?!

Is that like those train managers paid to sit around in the back cab reading a paper, or those lazy drivers that only have to press a few buttons?
 

edwin_m

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The PM only has to pull the levers of power, and if he feels really grumpy he could press that nice big red button.
 

HSTEd

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That's a joke, right?!

Is that like those train managers paid to sit around in the back cab reading a paper, or those lazy drivers that only have to press a few buttons?

What does he actually do?
He chairs a cabinet meeting every so often but otherwise he simply reads from the script and waves at the right time.
Most of the time he doesn't even formulate policy any more - he has people for that.
 

jon0844

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I am amazed you actually think, and presumably believe, that.
 

Deerfold

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What does he actually do?
He chairs a cabinet meeting every so often but otherwise he simply reads from the script and waves at the right time.
Most of the time he doesn't even formulate policy any more - he has people for that.

I'm politically miles from the Prime Minister but I realise he's got a very busy job (with various perks) and makes important decisions regularly (many of which I'm sure I'd disagree with) - far more than you seem to think.

I'd happily argue for hours that someone else should be Prime Minister but I wouldn't entertain the idea it's an easy job for two seconds.
 

Yew

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the proposed High Speed 2 (HS2) line connecting London to Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, its chairman Sir David Higgins told MPs: "It won't directly benefit the far South West at all


Breaking news! Railway going to north of England doesnt go to Southwest england!
 
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muddythefish

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As a Lancashire resident I was very miffed that my county did not benefit when the A38 to the south west was improved a few years ago.
 

jon0844

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Breaking news! Railway going to north of England doesnt go to Southwest england!

I heard President Obama raise concerns on his recent visit that HS2 wouldn't do anything to improve UK/US relations as not a single US state will see HS2 travel through.

Isn't it time we ditch HS2 once and for all? :D
 

Geezertronic

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I heard President Obama raise concerns on his recent visit that HS2 wouldn't do anything to improve UK/US relations as not a single US state will see HS2 travel through.

Isn't it time we ditch HS2 once and for all? :D

Or reinvent it as an Atlantic Railway crossing :D
 

Wavertreelad

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And getting back on track, the Liverpool Echo has today launched a campaign to bring HS2 directly to Liverpool.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-must-high-speed-train-7523049

The campaign is based on the Highspeedrailliverpool.org which is backed by the Combined Authority and its constituent local authorities – Liverpool, Wirral, Sefton, Knowsley, St Helens and Halton - and its strategic transport adviser Merseytravel. This is alongside the Liverpool City Region Local Enterprise Partnership and private sector businesses and organisations but interestingly not the 20 Miles More Group, well at least yet.

http://highspeedrailliverpool.org/#intro
 

Wavertreelad

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No information provided?
Wonderful.....

There's no link on the Echo article to the website which I thought was a brilliant start. Then the e-partition - appears to be a means of getting the voter on a mailing list.

The idea is good as it needs public support, but totally agree it needs more detail and it also needs to involve all parties including the 20 Miles More Group so that everybody is singing from the same hymn book.
 

jon0844

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Does anyone think it funny that when a place like Liverpool says it wants HS2, we get loads of figures showing how important HS2 is - new jobs, boost to the economy etc.

Anyone would think that the people who are against HS2 are merely those that don't have a station near them....
 

tbtc

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Does anyone think it funny that when a place like Liverpool says it wants HS2, we get loads of figures showing how important HS2 is - new jobs, boost to the economy etc.

Anyone would think that the people who are against HS2 are merely those that don't have a station near them....

Its funny how keen Liverpool are on an HS2 station (and Stoke were, and various other places not on the "map") when the HS2 critics keep telling us that HS2 will lead to a "brain drain" and only benefit That London...

...odd also that the same critics seem perfectly happy for improved links like Burnley to Manchester (via the new chord) and we don't see the argument that "this will only benefit Manchester and will lead to a drain for Burnley".

As I've said before (back in the "megathread" days, the ideal HS2 is one that runs around ten miles from every house in the country, so well all share in the prosperity, but doesn't run within a mile of anyone's home (as we don't want the disruption/ noise) - that way everyone'd be happy!
 

joeykins82

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Last time I checked Liverpool was getting HS2 trains. Just not captive 400m ones.

There'll be 2tph via HS2 (as opposed to the 1tph VT currently serving Liverpool).

I'm not sure what the problem is.
 

HSTEd

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Because the journey time won't be as short as Manchester.
They demand a full captive spur.
 

Gareth

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Last time I checked Liverpool was getting HS2 trains. Just not captive 400m ones.

There'll be 2tph via HS2 (as opposed to the 1tph VT currently serving Liverpool).

I'm not sure what the problem is.

No released capacity for the area and stupidly different journey times compared with Manchester, which has potential to kill off Liverpool as a major city once and for all.

There'll be two trains per hour via HS2, that is correct but Liverpool isn't on HS2 like the Comial Alis insist. No more than London's on the French TGV because Eurostar runs on those lines. Nor, indeed, is Liverpool on the M6 despite the fact cars from Liverpool can directly access it via the M62.
 

MarkyT

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What if Liverpool got they captive spur at enourmous expense but demand was insufficient during most of the day to justify more than one train an hour? Would that be preferable, saving an extra ten minutes or so, to a half-hourly or at times even more frequent classic compatible service, also picking up trade at Runcorn? The neccessarily shorter classic compatible units could split and join similar portions at Crewe, for Warrington, Wigan, Preston and Blackpool/Lancaster, giving those towns a frequent regular service as well whilst using the trunk London paths from Crewe to best practical effect.
 
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Gareth

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Does anyone think it funny that when a place like Liverpool says it wants HS2, we get loads of figures showing how important HS2 is - new jobs, boost to the economy etc.

Anyone would think that the people who are against HS2 are merely those that don't have a station near them....

I know plenty of people in places like Manchester who are opposed to HS2. Also, so far as Liverpool is concerned, if it happens, Liverpool can't afford to not be on it, whether HS2 is bad in principle or not.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What if Liverpool got they captive spur at enourmous expense but demand was insufficient during most of the day to justify more than one train an hour? Would that be preferable, saving an extra ten minutes or so, than a half-hourly or at times even more frequent classic compatible service, also picking up trade at Runcorn? The neccessarily shorter classic compatible units could split and join similar portions at Crewe, for Warrington, Wigan, Preston and Blackpool/Lancaster, giving those towns a frequent regular service as well whilst using the trunk London paths from Crewe to best practical effect.

Why would Liverpool justify only one train? Are you assuming all trains will be 400m and double-decked? Because if so, I struggle to see Manchester or Leeds filling three of them per hour.
 

MarkyT

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Why would Liverpool justify only one train? Are you assuming all trains will be 400m and double-decked? Because if so, I struggle to see Manchester or Leeds filling three of them per hour.

Maybe it will not be possible to fill three an hour, every hour, during the day at Manchester and Leeds but anticipated peak demand warrants that level of service; these cities are very large regional hubs, and rail connections into them will be available and will be improved from a wide hinterland. Liverpool, simply because it is situated on the coast, serves a smaller hinterland so demand is always going to be limited to an extent. If Liverpool captive trains were not double deck or full length, the only advantage you get over classic compatible trains over the classic line for the last 35 miles of a 180 mile journey is a very marginally faster journey time. The capacity of a 200m single deck captive train will be no greater than the same length classic compatible set, and running one of these alone could be seen as poor use of a trunk London path.

In continental Europe high speed trains are all 'classic compatible' with their historic networks because there is no effective difference in loading gauge, and the trains routinely run to a wide number of destinations away from the high speed trunks without expensive dedicated infrastructure stretching into every urban area. Our UK classic compatibles will allow a similar approach and really must stop being seen as somehow a second best. On the high speed trunk itself they will achieve speed equal to the captive trains and they will have similar seating capacity for a given length to a captive spec single decker, both at about 70% of a double-decker of the same length.

Currently an hourly 11 car pendolino provides around 600 seats per hour.
Two 200m single deck HS sets per hour, whether classic compatible or captive will provide around 1000 seats per hour.
Two 200m double deck HS sets, or one 400m double deck HS set per hour will provide around 1400 seats per hour
Two 400m double deckers per hour would provide 2800 seats per hour.

Clearly that suggests an upgrade path. An initial 400 seats an hour improvement can be provided with classic compatibles on classic route. If demand growth justifies it in the future a GC gauge cleared corridor, whether entirely new or not, could be engineered to allow double deck operation. That could be improved progressively to allow full length train operation when demand justified it.

It is likely that any 200m HS sets running alone at the extremes of, or beyond, the HS2 network, whether they are captive or classic compatible, double or single deck, will be combined at some major hub with another such service for the run over the trunk section from Birmingham into London, to make best use of the paths and the platforms at Euston.
 
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Gareth

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Maybe it will not be possible to fill three an hour, every hour, during the day at Manchester and Leeds but anticipated peak demand warrants that level of service; these cities are very large regional hubs, and rail connections into them will be available and will be improved from a wide hinterland. Liverpool, simply because it is situated on the coast, serves a smaller hinterland so demand is always going to be limited to an extent. If Liverpool captive trains were not double deck or full length, the only advantage you get over classic compatible trains over the classic line for the last 35 miles of a 180 mile journey is a very marginally faster journey time. The capacity of a 200m single deck captive train will be no greater than the same length classic compatible set, and running one of these alone could be seen as poor use of a trunk London path.

Liverpool's also a large 'regional hub', or actually, 'national hub' as Network Rail categorises it. It isn't just a west coast version of Hull, with all due respect to that city. It's catchment area may be smaller than Manchester and perhaps Leeds but the difference isn't as huge as modern myth would suggest. Liverpool currently has no less than half the passenger demand to London than Manchester has and not much less than Leeds, despite the handicap of the lower frequency which causes catchment leakage. I personally don't think either of those cities will be running three double-decked 400m trains per hour, even at peak from Day One. To do so suggests both those cities will see an explosion in demand over the next 20 years that Liverpool, for whatever perceived reason, will not. Okay, at least the lines would be future-proofed for many years to come which would be fair enough but you can't at the same time insist that Liverpool would have to justify running its link at capacity from Day One. The two other things you need to consider is that the lines into Liverpool are considered highly constrained by Network Rail. It's near enough the only section in the north of England with this status that HS2 will not relieve. Also, a Liverpool section could also be used for East-West services, freeing up the existing lines for more commuter services. Freight is another crux in the area that HS2 currently doesn't address.
 
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NotATrainspott

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The tph figures that are bandied about for HS2 are, at the moment, just for the peak. During most of the day the current plan is to run fewer trains per hour and not many of the services would be 400m. The infrastructure would be there for that to increase to whatever is necessary in future with the only expense being the extra trainsets and the extra traincrews to run them.
 

HSTEd

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So essentially they want to kill the scheme (its nothing more than a wrecking proposal) because Manchester will have a better service than them.

ALso the political damage from having any spare capacity on HS2 at all will almost certainly lead to a full timetable being operated at all times, and with all possible formations being run at maximum length.


Which is why I keep going on about 400m TGV Duplexes with 18 trailers. (Could also use the platform overlap [length of 415m] to allow a 19th trailer potentially)
 
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Wavertreelad

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Liverpool's also a large 'regional hub', or actually, 'national hub' as Network Rail categorises it. It isn't just a west coast version of Hull, with all due respect to that city. It's catchment area may be smaller than Manchester and perhaps Leeds but the difference isn't as huge as modern myth would suggest. Liverpool currently has no less than half the passenger demand to London than Manchester has and not much less than Leeds, despite the handicap of the lower frequency which causes catchment leakage. I personally don't think either of those cities will be running three double-decked 400m trains per hour, even at peak from Day One. To do so suggests both those cities will see an explosion in demand over the next 20 years that Liverpool, for whatever perceived reason, will not. Okay, at least the lines would be future-proofed for many years to come which would be fair enough but you can't at the same time insist that Liverpool would have to justify running its link at capacity from Day One. The two other things you need to consider is that the lines into Liverpool are considered highly constrained by Network Rail. It's near enough the only section in the north of England with this status that HS2 will not relieve. Also, a Liverpool section could also be used for East-West services, freeing up the existing lines for more commuter services. Freight is another crux in the area that HS2 currently doesn't address.

Absolutely, the present HS2 proposal taking the line Wigan with a captive capacity branch Manchester Airport and Piccadilly does little to help the North of England and for that matter North Wales. With road traffic into Manchester city centre and around the airport already congested and public transported constrained either by congestion or capacity it seems illogical to create a mini version of London's problems in a single place in the North. Higgins recommendation of building phase 1 to Crewe initially is logical as it then allows a classic compatible fleet serve a much larger market almost from day one, assuming modest upgrades to lines to the north, freeing up capacity on the WCML for local traffic and freight at the same time. HS2 phase 2 could then be designed to incorporate plans for HS3 (or whatever a link between Liverpool and Hull via Manchester, Leeds and perhaps Sheffield is eventually called), which would then suggest the HS2 route to central Manchester could be eastern part of a new HS line from Liverpool. I'm not convinced that HS2 needs to call at Manchester Airport enroute to central Manchester, because passengers from the south will likely have more opportunities from either local airports or the airports around London. However, the airport could be on a classic compatible route, allowing trains to run from Newcastle and York via Leeds and Manchester through to Crewe and Birmingham and beyond in both directions.
 

joeykins82

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Higgins recommendation of building phase 1 to Crewe initially is logical as it then allows a classic compatible fleet serve a much larger market almost from day one
No, it just means that the CC trains will travel at higher speeds for longer from day one, and the money that would've been spent building the WCML connection at Lichfield will be saved. CC trains will run via HS2 when phase 1 is complete to Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow (and maybe Edinburgh).
 

Wavertreelad

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No, it just means that the CC trains will travel at higher speeds for longer from day one, and the money that would've been spent building the WCML connection at Lichfield will be saved. CC trains will run via HS2 when phase 1 is complete to Liverpool, Manchester and Glasgow (and maybe Edinburgh).

And is that not better for the North of England, North Wales and Scotland as a whole rather than concentrating HS2 on Manchester which is what would otherwise likely happen?

Speaking yesterday "David Cameron today said there was a “strong case to be made” for the high speed rail network to be brought to Liverpool – and vowed to look carefully at the arguments made for its inclusion."

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/prime-minister-says-strong-case-7536623

Whilst Councillors in Liverpool last night backed the campaign to bring HS2 to Liverpool including the 20 Miles More Campaign.

"City Mayor Joe Anderson had tabled the motion at a meeting of the full council held at the Town Hall tonight.

It noted an announcement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer “to start a conversation” about the east-west High Speed 3 (HS3) route and welcomed that this will be fed into a review of the second stage of HS2.

The motion outlined that the council also welcomed the establishment of the business–led 20 Miles More campaign to secure Liverpool’s inclusion on the network."

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/councillors-back-hs2-call-city-7537937

Perhaps the Council and the 20 Miles More Group are a little nearer singing from the same hymn book at last?

In a separate initiative although not directly rail related may have implications for rail development in the regions and HS rail.

"Liverpool is leading a group of major English cities which are putting old rivalries aside in a bid to take on London.

The new group of eight wants to encourage business and growth outside the south east, and will work together to try to tempt investors away from the capital.

‘Cities for Business’ aims also to advise government on what needs to be done to address the economic imbalance in the country.

Although the eight cities - including Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, Bristol - say they contribute around 27% of the countries economic output, they are “underperforming” by international standards"

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-leads-major-cities-bid-7538902
 

WatcherZero

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Bit of local spin. Its an iniative from the existing Core Cities group which features the leaders of the 8 city regions, based in Manchester, agreeing to work with the leaders of the equivalent 8 LEPs.

http://www.corecities.com/home
 

jon0844

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Not the press, but social networking;

A friend of a friend on Facebook commented earlier today (on a photo of a high speed train in Venice) that we should axe HS2 and use the money saved to simply build brand new.. high-speed trains.

Does anyone else see a flaw in this plan?!
 
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