HS2 in the press

[edwin_m]

Essentially shows Long Distance capacity has increased by 50% since 2007/8 and while demands growing around 7% a year its led to quite a bit of excess capacity that should last a decade or so. Suburban capacity on the other hand has increased by about 5-15% but is pretty full in peaks, looks like it will be beyond peak capacity in only a couple of years time though still masses of offpeak capacity (offpeak services between a third and half full with well over a decade of growth potential left).

(should of course be pointed out that a train leaving a terminus will usually increase loading till around midpoint during the journey while a train arriving at a terminus is not neccesarily still at its highest loading, i.e if a train leaves Euston for Scotland half full it will be a lot fuller by the time it reaches Wigan/Preston)

Doing the sums, compound growth of 7% a year results in a 50% increase in five years not ten, so if the 7% is correct this capacity will have been taken up already! However I suspect the actual growth is quite a bit less, as the new timetable probably caused a spike in 2008 and since then we have had the recession and some indication that the growth rates of the last decade or so will not continue long term.

The midpoint rule usually doesn't apply for trains serving London - they are generally fullest at the London terminus except for routes that serve a major interchange just outside London such as Clapham Junction.

 

[po8crg]

The midpoint rule usually doesn't apply for trains serving London - they are generally fullest at the London terminus except for routes that serve a major interchange just outside London such as Clapham Junction.

And, of course, for HS2 that will mean Old Oak Common. I can't imagine there will be as many passengers travelling OOC-EUS as there will disembark at OOC to transfer to Crossrail and/or Overground.

 

[gordonthemoron]

And, of course, for HS2 that will mean Old Oak Common. I can't imagine there will be as many passengers travelling OOC-EUS as there will disembark at OOC to transfer to Crossrail and/or Overground.

don't underestimate the stupidity of some people, although Euston is quite handy for St Pancras International

 

[edwin_m]

don't underestimate the stupidity of some people, although Euston is quite handy for St Pancras International

There are a few journeys for which it would be useful, such as between Heathrow or stations to Reading and inner stations on the Euston line or stations further out from St Pancras or Kings Cross.

However I expect HS2 would follow the practice of HS1 and not allow Oyster and other TfL tickets on this section.

 

[Deerfold]

However I expect HS2 would follow the practice of HS1 and not allow Oyster and other TfL tickets on this section.

Really? I'd really hope not. If they're expecting lots of people to change at OOC then presumably there'll be plenty of room for those wanting to go to Euston - seems it would cause more congestion them being forced to travel indirectly on other lines.

 

[AM9]

Really? I'd really hope not. If they're expecting lots of people to change at OOC then presumably there'll be plenty of room for those wanting to go to Euston - seems it would cause more congestion them being forced to travel indirectly on other lines.

That would just extend dwells at OOC and reduce any opportunity to start servicing the trains on that last leg.
Of course it would also deny enthusiasts the chance to ride on HS2 with their Oyster/Travelcard.

 

[Deerfold]

That would just extend dwells at OOC and reduce any opportunity to start servicing the trains on that last leg.
Of course it would also deny enthusiasts the chance to ride on HS2 with their Oyster/Travelcard.

And make it a useful connection for people who work near Euston?

 

[po8crg]

However I expect HS2 would follow the practice of HS1 and not allow Oyster and other TfL tickets on this section.

I think TfL are trying to get Oyster accepted on HS1 Stratford-STP actually - but in the same way as it is accepted on the dangleway, ie no travel cards, PAYG only, and not counting to the daily limit.

I think I saw it as part of the TfL submission to the most recent IKF consultation.

 

[edwin_m]

I think TfL are trying to get Oyster accepted on HS1 Stratford-STP actually - but in the same way as it is accepted on the dangleway, ie no travel cards, PAYG only, and not counting to the daily limit.

I think I saw it as part of the TfL submission to the most recent IKF consultation.

Yes this was mentioned in Modern Railways. I think the risk of overcrowding would be worse from Old Oak Common than from Stratford, since there will be lots of other services at OOC that people might want to use as part of a journey to/from the Euston area. Apart from the DLR any change at Stratford International needs a transfer to/from Stratford Regional which probably takes long enough to outweigh the time saving from using HS1.

 

[AM9]

And make it a useful connection for people who work near Euston?

And all those regulars would crowd at the London end of a 400m train otherwise any time saved would be spent walking the length of the train at Euston.
Going the other way there would be additional delays getting away from Euston as commuters would be a continuous stream rather than aiming for a specific train.
Where would all these people so desperate to save three minutes getting to Euston come from?

 

[edwin_m]

Where would all these people so desperate to save three minutes getting to Euston come from?

Could be a lot more than three minutes if the London end of the journey is convenient for Euston but not for a Crossrail station. For example someone commuting from Reading to a job near Euston. Or trying to get from Walthamstow to Heathrow, seeing as Crossrail doesn't interchange with the Victoria.

 

[AM9]

Could be a lot more than three minutes if the London end of the journey is convenient for Euston but not for a Crossrail station. For example someone commuting from Reading to a job near Euston. Or trying to get from Walthamstow to Heathrow, seeing as Crossrail doesn't interchange with the Victoria.

From the platform entrance to the trains, Crossrail is likely to be less walking distance
There will be 24 TPH on Crossrail, assuming few if any turn at Paddington with the Reading extension plus WCML running possibilities.
All Crossrail trains will depart from the same platform.
Crossrail trains will have at least 1/3 2/3 wide doors per coach.
Dwell times will be less than one minute.
The OOC to TCR travelling time will be about 8 minutes, (doors close to open).
There may be 18 TPH on HS2.
HS2 trains will depart from at least two platforms at OOC and probably 4 at Euston.
HS2 trains will have end doors with vestibules and passengers alighting at OOC for Heathrow will have luggage.
Dwell times not stated, but I suspect they will be at least 3 mins. at OOC.
The travelling time from OOC to Euston will be at least 8-10 minutes, (doors close to open).

I can't see how Crossrail end to end times between OOC and Euston (even doubling back from Farringdon to Euston Square or Northern Line TCR to Euston) will be bettered by HS2.

 

[edwin_m]

I can't see why HS2 would take 8-10min OOC to Euston with no intermediate stops, when Crossrail would take 8min for the similar distance to TCR with two stops in between. There might be some padding in the timetable here but in practice the trains would just run through and arrive early. And an extra train from TCR or Farringdon to Euston would add at least five minutes to the Crossrail times. And the walk time from the HS2 platforms at Euston to the exit will probably be less than from the Tube, though probably not less than from the sub-surface lines assuming a proper link to Euston Square.

 

[jon0844]

Won't it take time because all trains go slow entering the terminus, getting a platform etc?

They all have a great deal of padding (e.g. FPK to KGX) and in reality, many trains arrive early - but not a lot of use when it's not guaranteed or able to be taken into account for connections.

 

[455driver]

Someone, I presume a anti-HS2 campaign group has done a FOI request on Euston WCML arrivals and departure loadings vs total capacity.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-main-line-service-from-london-euston-in-2013

Essentially shows Long Distance capacity has increased by 50% since 2007/8 and while demands growing around 7% a year its led to quite a bit of excess capacity that should last a decade or so. Suburban capacity on the other hand has increased by about 5-15% but is pretty full in peaks, looks like it will be beyond peak capacity in only a couple of years time though still masses of offpeak capacity (offpeak services between a third and half full with well over a decade of growth potential left).

Of course if some more of beardies trains actually picked up at Milton Keynes, Watford etc during the morning peak then the loadings on the suburban trains might be a bit more bearable.

 

[edwin_m]

Won't it take time because all trains go slow entering the terminus, getting a platform etc?

They all have a great deal of padding (e.g. FPK to KGX) and in reality, many trains arrive early - but not a lot of use when it's not guaranteed or able to be taken into account for connections.

HS2 stations are likely to have station entry times much better than existing termini. And although there may be padding in the timetable, trains won't be able to wait for time at Euston as this is a 2-track tunnel so platforms will need to be available when the train approaches. So if you're looking to go from OOC to Euston you just board the first train that arrives whether running early or not.

 

[HSTEd]

Well if the station was designed properly it would have a seperate 'departure' concourse directly above the platforms with travellators to distribute passengers along the length of the trains.

 

[AM9]

I can't see why HS2 would take 8-10min OOC to Euston with no intermediate stops, when Crossrail would take 8min for the similar distance to TCR with two stops in between.

For comparison, Sotheastern(SE) trains on HS2 take 6 1/2 mins up and 6 mins down (WTT). That's with outer suburban stock of 6 or 12 cars long. The up SE trains take the first left turnout to access the east side STP platforms so there are no conflicts there. At the morning peak say 08:00 to 08:59 there are four Eurostar arrivals, one of which is ECS and eight SE arrivals. Compare all this with Euston, where there will be up to 18 HS2 trains arriving in the same period. There won't be the simple division of routes to platforms like at STP.
Most of the trains will be 400m long so whatever their speed is they will take more time in the throat and certaily be slower than a six car 395 to stop and disgorge. They will also probably have plug doors designed for up to 400Km per hour rather than the pocketed doors on 395s and presumably the forthcoming 345s.

There might be some padding in the timetable here but in practice the trains would just run through and arrive early. And an extra train from TCR or Farringdon to Euston would add at least five minutes to the Crossrail times. And the walk time from the HS2 platforms at Euston to the exit will probably be less than from the Tube, though probably not less than from the sub-surface lines assuming a proper link to Euston Square.

Not everybody who works near Euston will want to be close to the station. Many will be near euston Road and some will be near Wareen street station so the tube exits would be more convenient for regular commuters. In addition, unless the OOC boarders all cram into the front coaches* (and probably stand all the way), they will have to endure a wait whilst the leisure and long distance business travellers clog up the vestibules, then walk slowly along the platform with their luggage.
* which may be first class anyway.
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Well if the station was designed properly it would have a seperate 'departure' concourse directly above the platforms with travellators to distribute passengers along the length of the trains.

But those travelators would need to be pretty swift to reduce the time to cover an average of 200m in addition to all the preliminaries.

 

[NotATrainspott]

The 12 HS2 platforms at Euston will be split across two separate 6-track fans, joined by a dive-under in the Camden Cutting, so it won't be difficult to timetable services such that arriving and departing passengers do not conflict on the concourse too much. The concourse layer will be able to completely cover the platform level, allowing passengers to be dispersed in any cardinal direction and avoiding the problems of today at Euston or at other classic termini.

 

[Wavertreelad]

The Liverpool Echo is reporting today

"Liverpool Mayor and Labour icon Joe Anderson strode into the Conservative party conference in Birmingham yesterday to make the case for the city joining the planned high speed rail network.

At a packed fringe session the mayor banged the drum for a 20-mile fast connection between Crewe and Liverpool.

He said: “Economically, it’s a no-brainer. It is absolutely there for everybody to see in terms of growth, the number of jobs, GVA...

"It’s absolutely madness not to consider it.”

Mr Anderson said the massive expansion in the capacity of Liverpool’s port made the case for better transport connections even more urgent.

He said: “We are investing as we speak £320m in a super-port [so] we will be able to accommodate the biggest ships that come into our country in the North West... It’s about connecting to Edinburgh, it’s about connecting to Glasgow, it’s about making our great cities connected.”

He challenged the Conservatives in the packed hotel room and “progressives in all parties” to champion the case for high-speed rail links.

Mr Anderson said the investment in Liverpool’s port would create more than 5,000 jobs and “quadruple” the amount of freight that comes into the city.

He said: “We’ve got to get it out. We’ve got to make sure that we’re able to transport that...

“For me the case for HS3 and HS2 is overwhelming.”

Phillip Blond, the founder of the Respublica think tank which hosted the event, stressed the need for infrastructure investment, saying: “There’s no economic offer that can transform the North unless it’s led by infrastructure... It’s imperative and vitally important to the future of the north of this country that we have high-speed rail going from Liverpool to Hull.

“If we can create that, that makes everything else worthwhile. Otherwise, if we just build HS2 as currently planned, what it will be is a valley that draws all the water from all the economies surrounding it.”

Conservative Cities minister Greg Clark paid tribute to Mr Anderson’s achievements as Liverpool’s first elected mayor.

He said: “The establishment of the Mayor of London has resulted in a new spring in the step of that city.” "


http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-mayor-bangs-drum-hs2-7854238

 

[edwin_m]

Conservative Cities minister Greg Clark paid tribute to Mr Anderson’s achievements as Liverpool’s first elected mayor.

He said: “The establishment of the Mayor of London has resulted in a new spring in the step of that city.” "

That looks like foot in mouth in the first degree, unless it's misreported.

 

[WatcherZero]

Birmingham has got the primary HS2 college, Doncaster will host a secondary site.

 

[Wavertreelad]

That looks like foot in mouth in the first degree, unless it's misreported.

I suspect the report is correct, and that the comment was made to demonstrate to the other northern cities which are generally Labour controlled that having a Mayor is the way the present Government want to proceed and that as a result "requests" will be heard more sympathetically.

 

[edwin_m]

I suspect the report is correct, and that the comment was made to demonstrate to the other northern cities which are generally Labour controlled that having a Mayor is the way the present Government want to proceed and that as a result "requests" will be heard more sympathetically.

Perhaps so, but citing London, either intentionally or accidentally, sounds to me a perfect way to get everyone's backs up in Liverpool!

 

[AM9]

Perhaps so, but citing London, either intentionally or accidentally, sounds to me a perfect way to get everyone's backs up in Liverpool!

Being a supporter of large cities having mayors but definitely not a Boris fan, I can see what he is getting at, and so can politicians in the north. If Liverpool leaders want to get their back up, more fool them. They should be adult enough to look past their feelings about Boris and his previous ineptitudes and listen to the message.

 

[jon0844]

I hope Liverpool is successful, as clearly people there are thinking about the future - and making a good case for high speed/capacity rail. The mere mention of HS3 shows this.

 

[WatcherZero]

Report in local Birmingham paper of route amendments for Lichfield, it will now pass under the WCML and roads rather than over them upon a viaduct.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Perhaps so, but citing London, either intentionally or accidentally, sounds to me a perfect way to get everyone's backs up in Liverpool!

Sorry I was dashing this morning and misread the London to read Liverpool! Eitherway I'm not quite sure it makes that difference, the point being made of course if you read London is that Ken and Boris between them have enabled London to reach the prominent position it now enjoys as a global city. On the other hand reading it as Liverpool the point is despite their political divides both sides can work together for the benefit of area on policies to mutual benefit of both sides which is clearly aimed at the other Labour run councils across the north which have so far rejected Mayors, despite the additional funds that come with it.

 

[Class 170101]

Where would all these people so desperate to save three minutes getting to Euston come from?

If I am making a journey out of either Kings Cross or St Pancras heading north it is a quicker option to travel via Stratford and St Pancras International Stations than it is to use the Tube. Particularly at weekends should the Circle Line be closed.

The same logic will doubtless apply between Old Oak Common and Euston (area).
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An article from Rail Technology Magazine suggesting a re-routing / re-profiling of the line around Lichfield
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/hs2-scraps-viaduct-plans-near-lichfield-

HS2 scraps canal viaducts near Lichfield in favour of tunnels

Plans to run HS2 over viaducts in South Staffordshire have been scrapped, with an alternative engineering solution proposed, HS2 Ltd has confirmed.

The amendments to the phase one route will mean the track will now pass under the A38, the West Coast Main Line and the South Staffordshire Line. This means the two planned crossings over the Trent & Mersey Canal have now been mothballed.

Campaigners had warned that embankments and crossings close to the listed Woodend Lock and Lock Cottage on the Trent & Mersey Canal would have had a dramatic impact on a tranquil length of rural canal currently enjoyed by boaters, walkers and cyclists.

The changes follow petitions from local residents and stakeholders, including the Canals & Rivers Trust, and follows on from the news that the National High Speed College will be based in Birmingham.

HS2 Ltd and Staffordshire Count Council worked together to modify the route.

Transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin MP, who proposed the alterations, said: “This decision underlines the ongoing work HS2 Ltd is doing with communities along the route to ensure the construction of this vital new railway takes their views into account.

“I am confident that by working together we can ensure HS2 is designed in the right way, and we will have spades in the ground in 2017 as planned.”

Lichfield MP Michael Fabricant added that it was a “major victory” for campaigners who have been appalled at the height of the viaduct as it crosses the A38 and West Coast Main Line.

The government gave the go-ahead for a HS2, which will be a Y-shaped rail network providing direct, high capacity, high speed rail links between London and Birmingham and onto Manchester and Leeds, back in January 2012. Since then, the route has been highly controversial.

Commenting on the design changes, HS2’s chief executive Simon Kirby said: “I am delighted that through partnership working with Staffordshire County Council we have been able to find an engineering solution that reduces HS2’s impact on the area.

“Subsequent partnership working with Staffordshire County Council to further investigate the ground conditions produced results that presented the opportunity for improved route design.”

 

[WatcherZero]

They published the route amendment today.