HS2 in the press

[AM9]

If I am making a journey out of either Kings Cross or St Pancras heading north it is a quicker option to travel via Stratford and St Pancras International Stations than it is to use the Tube. Particularly at weekends should the Circle Line be closed.

The same logic will doubtless apply between Old Oak Common and Euston (area).

Well not exactly. When you get to Euston it will still be nearly 1/2 mile walk to a STP or KGX train. HS2 does at least take you to the same stations that you want to depart from.

 

[edwin_m]

Nottingham Post has picked up the rumour about Toton being dropped.

PLANS for a high-speed rail link at Toton Sidings are close to being abandoned, the Post understands.

A report later this month is expected to say the HS2 station for the East Midlands should be moved into Derbyshire.

Sources say the move is being made to try to link HS2 into existing rail lines to Nottingham and Derby.

It is believed that the proposed new site will be somewhere between Long Eaton and Breaston.


Read more: http://www.nottinghampost.com/SIDELINED/story-23059659-detail/story.html#ixzz3FXP2ptX2
Follow us: @Nottingham_Post on Twitter | NottinghamPostOnline on Facebook
Read more at http://www.nottinghampost.com/SIDELINED/story-23059659-detail/story.html#0re4Ay6EM2gfXBiB.99

This sounds like just west of where the MML passes under the M1, but difficult to see how the route could go north from here without getting into built-up areas. My other thought is East Midlands Parkway, on the existing route but on viaduct. Either site would offer interchange to existing services, avoiding the problems associated with providing new classic train services just to access HS2 at Toton, but a tram connection to either site looks unlikely.

I should add that the although I am doing some work for HS2 Ltd on some topics, this isn't one of them and the above is written from a position of no inside knowledge.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Nottingham Post has picked up the rumour about Toton being dropped.



This sounds like just west of where the MML passes under the M1, but difficult to see how the route could go north from here without getting into built-up areas. My other thought is East Midlands Parkway, on the existing route but on viaduct. Either site would offer interchange to existing services, avoiding the problems associated with providing new classic train services just to access HS2 at Toton, but a tram connection to either site looks unlikely.

I should add that the although I am doing some work for HS2 Ltd on some topics, this isn't one of them and the above is written from a position of no inside knowledge.

That's an intriguing possibility. The Toton site requires a lot of work that is very, very close to homes and businesses in Long Eaton and that tunnel under the airport. What this proposal seems to be is that as the route diverges from the A42, it could pass between the airport and the racing circuit, before crossing the confluence of the Trent and Derwent rivers to follow the M1 alignment. It might need a small amount of compulsory purchase on the eastern side of Breaston but after that it would be possible to meet up with the original alignment just at Sandiacre. It would presumably look something like this:

Yellow is the route that was presented for consultation, blue is my very, very rough outline of what might now be the case.

Other possible triggers for this change could include the Derby-Toton-Nottingham shuttle service, which would have required new infrastructure that was not ever included in the engineering reports. Theoretically the tram could still extend this far, especially if there is still redevelopment work done at Toton, by running the tram over the Toton site and through the town of Long Eaton.

EDIT:
Looking back at the Arup report for the eastern arm, this is what it says about Draycott or Breaston:

EMI12a Draycott (Northeast facing),
EMI12b Draycott (North facing), and
EMI13 Breaston
(8.4.3) These options would be located in the designated greenbelt area between Derby and Nottingham. The three options would be similar except that each one would be on a different line of route option. They would be approximately 10.4km from Derby and 16km from Nottingham, and so interchange to other modes would be required to serve these centres of demand. Interchange with the existing rail network would be achieved by construction of a new station on the Derby-Nottingham line. These stations would also have good highway connectivity to the region via the adjacent A52, on which a new junction would be required to provide access to the station.
(8.4.4) Approach to each station from the south would require a long viaduct over the River Derwent as well as elevated crossings over the A6005 and Derby / Nottingham railway line. The southern approach to the Breaston option would also pass through the village of Breaston. The northern approach would be in cutting / tunnel as the land rises through hilly terrain to the north.

However, the map in that report says that their Breaston station was never adjacent to the M1, so this may have been an option that fell through the gaps and was never properly considered.

Also, that newspaper article says explicitly that HS2 Ltd are to report on the Phase 2 consultation on the 27th of October.

 

[HSTEd]

This stinks of station-in-a-beet-field.

 

[edwin_m]

That's an intriguing possibility. The Toton site requires a lot of work that is very, very close to homes and businesses in Long Eaton and that tunnel under the airport. What this proposal seems to be is that as the route diverges from the A42, it could pass between the airport and the racing circuit, before crossing the confluence of the Trent and Derwent rivers to follow the M1 alignment. It might need a small amount of compulsory purchase on the eastern side of Breaston but after that it would be possible to meet up with the original alignment just at Sandiacre. It would presumably look something like this:

Yellow is the route that was presented for consultation, blue is my very, very rough outline of what might now be the case.

Other possible triggers for this change could include the Derby-Toton-Nottingham shuttle service, which would have required new infrastructure that was not ever included in the engineering reports. Theoretically the tram could still extend this far, especially if there is still redevelopment work done at Toton, by running the tram over the Toton site and through the town of Long Eaton.

EDIT:
Looking back at the Arup report for the eastern arm, this is what it says about Draycott or Breaston:



However, the map in that report says that their Breaston station was never adjacent to the M1, so this may have been an option that fell through the gaps and was never properly considered.

Also, that newspaper article says explicitly that HS2 Ltd are to report on the Phase 2 consultation on the 27th of October.

Interesting thoughts.

I don't think a M1 route would work all the way as the motorway curves would restrict train speeds too much. A route via Breaston would probably need a tunnel from the station site under J25 and Sandiacre to surface somewhere around Stanton Gate and pick up the consultation alignment east of the M1. This area is on a hill anyway, but the tunnel could end up being about as long as the East Midlands Airport tunnel they claim to avoid by this re-routeing. The S-bend on the M1 where it crosses the Trent might also be difficult - going further west would avoid the J24 complex but potentially re-introduce the airport tunnel. There is also a business park and rail freight terminal planned west of J24, for which the original tunnel was going to be extended.

The Arup quote suggests that these station options would be "adjacent" to the A52, but they can't then also be "adjacent" to the railway as the two are over 2km apart at this point. There is however a reasonable road southwards from J25 that could be extended into the station area by following the M1 round the east side of Breaston.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This stinks of station-in-a-beet-field.

It's in a good place for rail connections, and as I suggested above a reasonable road link would be possible. Less good for local buses but then neither was Toton.

I agree a tram through Long Eaton would be possible but a couple of miles of fairly busy built-up area is a bigger ask than half a mile of open country that would be needed to reach Toton. The longer tram route also makes it even less attractive for access to central Nottingham.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
BBC has now picked up the story.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29538362

Sources are telling me that the new preferred location is a few miles south-west of Toton, near Breaston in Derbyshire. The site would be just to the west of the M1 motorway.

HS2 has declined to confirm whether such a decision has already been taken. A spokesperson said a formal announcement will be made by the chairman of HS2 David Higgins later this month.

I don't agree with the location they suggest on the map in the link. Road access to that area is virtually non-existent.

 

[brianthegiant]

It's in a good place for rail connections, and as I suggested above a reasonable road link would be possible. Less good for local buses but then neither was Toton.

I agree a tram through Long Eaton would be possible but a couple of miles of fairly busy built-up area is a bigger ask than half a mile of open country that would be needed to reach Toton. The longer tram route also makes it even less attractive for access to central Nottingham.

Actually I think Toton could have worked quite well on the bus network. Whilst the main entrance would have been off the A52 which I think is only used by express services like the 'red arrow', you could have short bus only link roads with barriers to Long Eaton town centre, Stapleford town centre (existing A52 underbridge by scrap yards) and even diagonally up the hill into Toton housing.
You could then have Toton HS2 as a stopping point many local bus routes, including some new ones taking advantage of this new corridor, existing routes would probably want a rethink post-tram anyway.

 

[edwin_m]

I think the new site, if it's south-east of Breaston village as I suspect, offers similar prospects for buses. The indigo would pass the north end of the site so could serve it without diverting (unlike i4 at the other site) and there is scope for local connecting buses through Long Eaton and northwards.

 

[brianthegiant]

There are about 90,000 people living within 3 miles of the Toton site and 50,00 living within 3 miles of the Breaston Site. I hope the final decision will be focused on the needs of the user.
using NG9 7BX and DE72 3QL with www.datadevil.co.uk/population-radius-tool
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
local authorities (except Derby) have reiterated their support for HS2 to be at Toton:
www.nottinghampost.com/Councils-Toton-site-HS2-station/story-23077681-detail/story.html

Councils back Toton as site for HS2 station

COUNCILS have lined up to back Toton as their preferred site for a high-speed rail station in the region. It comes after rumours surfaced that a site near Long Eaton and Breaston was being mooted instead of Toton sidings.

The revised route could remove the need for an expensive tunnel underneath East Midlands Airport, which forms part of the original plans. The preferred location of the HS2 station in the East Midlands will be revealed on October 27, but the suggestion of Breaston has come as a shock to many.

Chris Corbett, Tory leader of Erewash Borough Council, which includes Breaston, said he did not want the station in his patch. He added: “If it is suggested in that report that the hub be moved to Breaston, it would seem a strange proposal and I would be against it and strongly oppose any such move. It would mean cutting through green-belt land and this council takes a strong stand in preserving our greenbelt. The fact it is also a flood area would also make it a curious proposal.

“It has always seemed to me that Toton – which is a brownfield site – is the best place for the HS2 station and we have been working hard along with the other local councils to make this a reality.”

Broxtowe MP Anna Soubry said: “If the route of the line is accordingly changed so it avoids parts of Trowell, Nuthall and in particular Strelley Village, that will be welcomed, but, losing the East Midlands hub would be a real blow. “All three political parties on the borough, city and county councils have rightly backed the original plans to site the hub at Toton Sidings. It promises huge economic, as well as transport benefits, to Broxtowe and indeed Greater Nottingham. I very much hope we have not lost the East Midlands hub at Toton.”

The plans for the Toton station were revealed in January 2013, with the proposal that 250mph trains would stop there on the route between London and Leeds. It is envisaged construction on Phase Two will start in 2022 and completed by 2032.

Derby City Council said it backed plans for the East Midlands station to be located at Derby station.

Leader of Nottinghamshire County Council Alan Rhodes reinforced his commitment to Toton. He said: “The previously announced route is close to the airport and M1 and will bring enormous economic benefits to Nottinghamshire as a whole, as well as improving travel time for passengers. We strongly believe that Toton is the best place for HS2, both for the economy of Nottinghamshire and the region as a whole and we will seek clarification on these rumours.”

A spokeswoman for HS2 said: “A report by our chairman will be announced on October 27, when there will be an update about the second phase of HS2. That report is still in draft form, so it would be pure speculation to say what it might contain.”

 

[Chris125]

By rail a station at Breaston doesn't look like it would be any further from Nottingham than Toton, yet would cut a chunk off the distance to Derby - that can't hurt the business case, and being on the mainline should make it easier to serve by through services too.

Chris

 

[HSTEd]

It kills any realistic chance of the tram serving it reducing local connectivity essentially to buses.

 

[edwin_m]

It kills any realistic chance of the tram serving it reducing local connectivity essentially to buses.

The tram from Toton is only relevant to the western suburbs as it would be 16 stops to the centre of Nottingham and nobody but a tram nut would want to do that. Most of the places people would use the tram for are at least as accessible by the Indigo bus route that passes through Breaston.

The overwhelming advantage of Breaston is that by stopping existing trains it will have frequent service to Nottingham, Derby and Leicester.

 

[Muzer]

An article from Rail Technology Magazine suggesting a re-routing / re-profiling of the line around Lichfield
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/hs2-scraps-viaduct-plans-near-lichfield-

Disappointing, would have been a very nice view from the train I suspect.

 

[WatcherZero]

Lichfield Council has decided to soften their opposition in the light of this minor amendment. They have cancelled an appearance before the select committee in Westminster and will drop their vocal opposition to the line itself They wont however drop their written objection as this allows them to continue to negotiate on issues such as noise and appearance.

Government has today announced a 30m grant pool for projects that promote the rural economy, environment and community centres along the route to be paid out at the end of 2026.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Interesting article in the Telegraph today.

Mark Reckless refuses to back scrapping HS2 in first public split with Ukip leader Nigel Farage

Former Tory MP tells The Telegraph he stands by previous HS2 support despite Ukip officially opposing plan and Mr Farage calling it 'undesirable, unwanted and unloved'

Tory defector Mark Reckless has repeatedly refused to endorse a keynote UK Independence Party policy in his first public split with Nigel Farage since joining the party.

Mr Reckless failed to back scrapping the Coalition's High Speed Rail project (HS2) despite Ukip officially opposing the initiative and Mr Farage previously calling it "undesirable, unwanted and unloved".


Instead the former Tory MP stood by his public backing of the Government's legislation earlier this year, when he wrote he was "proud to vote for HS2". Ukip's website lists "scrap HS2" on a page outlining "what we stand for".


When told about the comments, Mr Farage admitted he had a "different take" on HS2 and criticised the project for showing the Coalition was not approaching Britain's rail problems "the right way round".


However the Ukip leader stressed he was "perfectly happy" for Mr Reckless to take an opposing view to the party, saying: "Grown ups don’t have to agree on everything."


The first public rift between Mr Reckless and his new party's leader emerged as The Telegraph questioned the Tory defector on his previous support for HS2.

It comes as the High Speed Rail (London-West Midlands) Bill, which proposes a new rail link between London and major Northern cities, was scrutinised in Parliament this week amid concerns about its impact on the environment and escalating cost.

Mr Reckless, who faces a by-election battle next month after resigning as a Tory MP to run as a Ukip candidate, voted with the Government on the Bill in April despite dozens of his fellow Tory backbenchers rebelling.

Addressing the Commons at the time, Mr Reckless dismissed cost concerns, saying the estimates were "extraordinarily conservative", later adding on his blog he was "proud to vote for HS2" and make the "positive case" for the initiative.

Those views differ radically from that of Mr Farage, his new party leader, who said has been quoted as saying: "I feel the whole project is undesirable, unwanted and unloved."

"It beggars belief that in the depths of a financial crisis the government should embark on spending such a large amount. I think it's the wrong decision, at the wrong time and in the wrong place."

Asked by this newspaper whether he still supports HS2 despite defecting to Ukip, Mr Reckless said: "I’m reflecting on that. My speech is obviously on the record ... I’m just reflecting and not adding anything to what I’ve said on the record on the issue."

Asked out right if he wants to scrap HS2, Mr Reckless said: "I’m not speaking further beyond what I’ve said in Parliament on the issue. I’m aware that Ukip has taken a strong position against it." He added that he wants to see a link between HS1 and HS2.

Told about the comments, Mr Farage admitted the pair held "different" views on HS2 but said he was "perfectly happy" with disagreement within the party providing there was consensus on the "big ticket issues" like the European Union and immigration.

"Grown ups don’t have to agree on everything you know. I’m just about sick to death of the kind of politics that says you wear a pager on your belt and you’re told by the Dear Leader what you should think on every single subject. We are grown-ups and we have different points of view on things. That’s fine," Mr Farage said.

The clash of views came as Mr Farage paid a visit to Rochester, where Mr Reckless hopes to become the second Ukip MP to be elected in as many months at a by-election on November 20 triggered by his defection.

Mr Farage told journalists the battle marked the biggest by-election vote in 30 years and predicted the returning financial turmoil in the eurozone would help boost support for Ukip.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...blic-split-with-Ukip-leader-Nigel-Farage.html

I've always felt that UKIP's opposition to HS2 in the last few years has simply been to attract disaffected Tory votes on route.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Interesting article in the Telegraph today.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...blic-split-with-Ukip-leader-Nigel-Farage.html

I've always felt that UKIP's opposition to HS2 in the last few years has simply been to attract disaffected Tory votes on route.

UKIP proposed three different 200mph railways in their 2010 manifesto. Their policy position is just to be against whatever the other three parties are doing.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

UKIP proposed three different 200mph railways in their 2010 manifesto. Their policy position is just to be against whatever the other three parties are doing.

Exactly, that is why I think of them as a political chameleon taking on whatever party colours suit the local area to gain votes.

 

[WatcherZero]

FT Running a story, few factual inaccuracies and typos in the articles figures e.g. says reach Birmingham by 2016 rather than 2026. But according to their source Higgins is struggling to keep it on budget and so will rule out changes and extras such as Leeds integrated interchange, Liverpool Spur, Sheffield City Centre and Stoke.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4c7f36aa-5883-11e4-942f-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3GuLL477A

 

[swt_passenger]

FT Running a story, few factual inaccuracies and typos in the articles figures e.g. says reach Birmingham by 2016 rather than 2026. But according to their source Higgins is struggling to keep it on budget and so will rule out changes and extras such as Leeds integrated interchange, Liverpool Spur, Sheffield City Centre and Stoke.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4c7f36aa-5883-11e4-942f-00144feab7de.html?siteedition=uk#axzz3GuLL477A

They've corrected the date typo for reaching Birmingham.

For those who want to see the article, e.g. via Google, its title is:

"HS2 chief to rule out changes in attempt to keep budget on track"...

 

[Olaf]

HS2 'slowly dying’ as Euston terminus plan grinds to halt
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...g-as-Euston-terminus-plan-grinds-to-halt.html

- 22/11/2014

I am guessing that this article is partially playing to the audience, but:

Rupert Walker, HS2 and Network Rail’s development director for Euston, says design work on the station has been “stopped” because HS2 “simply couldn’t get the costs and benefits of the scheme to balance in an affordable way.”

Mr Walker said the proposed scheme was “not a fundable option”, adding that it “could not be made to work financially – there was no business case.”

...

The impasse suggests that HS2 chiefs may have to end the line at Old Oak Common, near Harlesden, four miles west of central London – shattering the route’s city centre to city centre appeal, adding time to journeys and further harming the scheme’s already poor business case.

Boris Johnson, the Mayor of London, has said he would withdraw his support for HS2 if it ended at Old Oak Common, calling it the “Ryanair solution, stopping in the middle of nowhere.”

In the minutes from the Oct 9 meeting of the Euston “opportunity area planning framework strategic board”, another Network Rail official, Donald Horner, says that building over railway tracks is “very expensive” and asks if the affordable housing element of the plan can be reduced.

HS2 says designating even 20 per cent of the housing – a very low proportion – as affordable makes the development unviable. Camden is demanding more than 20 per cent and potentially as much as 50 per cent affordable housing.

...

Ben Ruse, a spokesman for HS2, said the stopping of work was only a “pause” to “review” the scheme and “get everybody in agreement”. He added: “It’s about coming up with the right scheme, but one thing remains absolutely clear – HS2 will terminate at Euston.”

Whatever happens, the halting of the process is expected to add at least a year to the construction, making the original timetable impossible. Preparatory works at Euston were due to start in April, and demolitions in early 2016.

...

The scrapping of the “lean-to” in favour of a full rebuild at Euston was one of the key demands of Sir David Higgins, the former Olympic Delivery Authority and Network Rail chief executive brought in to rescue the project this year. He gave a strong hint last week that he would walk away if the Government refused to back his vision. Asked by the Commons transport committee if he would stay beyond the end of next year, he said: “I want to see what progress we have made … and what support we have from any government.”

 

[The Planner]

It has paused, it hasnt finished, this has been span a bit. There is an option being considered.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 'slowly dying' bit is only the opinion of a local pressure group leader, explained in the final paragraph. But it makes for a scary headline...

 

[Olaf]

It has paused, it hasnt finished, this has been span a bit. There is an option being considered.

I am guessing that is the case, i.e. that the program is still progressing, however it also suggests that one or more options have been eliminated from further development.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I actually saw that on the Euston Area Plan website a few days ago and the crux of it seems to be that for any full redevelopment to be possible, it won't be possible for Camden council to actually choose precisely what they want. Instead, they would have basically no choice but to load up as much high-value (read: not affordable) accommodation and office space as is physically possible, doing to Camden what Canary Wharf does to Tower Hamlets.

 

[Olaf]

I actually saw that on the Euston Area Plan website a few days ago and the crux of it seems to be that for any full redevelopment to be possible, it won't be possible for Camden council to actually choose precisely what they want. Instead, they would have basically no choice but to load up as much high-value (read: not affordable) accommodation and office space as is physically possible, doing to Camden what Canary Wharf does to Tower Hamlets.

Yes, that is what I was thinking.

 

[Chris125]

I am guessing that this article is partially playing to the audience

Nothing is more predictable than an article about HS2 written by Andrew Gilligan for the Daily Telegraph.

Chris

 

[pablo]

It's been plain for a long time that politically, economically and practically, Euston re-building is not viable.
Firstly it's squeezing a quart into a pint pot.
The extent of demolition and it's value, to be replaced elsewhere is staggering.
Central London land values are not the same as in Victorian times.
Replacement property has to be the highest value possible.
The indescision, design and building of foundations to support overhead developments will lengthen an already unacceptably long programme further. And, almost certainly increase the footprint.
Time is money in this game. The problems are divergent. You need convergency for a project to work. It doesn't tick any boxes that you would normally look for.

Why have trains turning around on such high value property? Push them through to the country and get a two-way benefit. But that's a whole new scenario. Toodle pip!

 

[Deerfold]

Why have trains turning around on such high value property? Push them through to the country and get a two-way benefit. But that's a whole new scenario. Toodle pip!

Where were you thinking of pushing them to?

 

[Haydn1971]

Why have trains turning around on such high value property? Push them through to the country and get a two-way benefit. But that's a whole new scenario. Toodle pip!

Ive been thinking this for a while, why terminate all the HS2 trains at a place that is already rammed with people, spread the load at the southern end just as the load is spread to the north.

Terminate a mix of services at several logical locations, Old Oak (for Crossrail & GWML), Heathrow & Euston are obvious places, using a HS2-HS1 tunnel link you could even terminate some services at St Pancras (for international & ThamesLink) and Stratford for East London links. You don't need to put all your HS2 eggs in one Euston basket.

 

[The Planner]

People seem to be going back to the fag packet with this, nowt is going going to change from Euston.

 

[deltic]

Ive been thinking this for a while, why terminate all the HS2 trains at a place that is already rammed with people, spread the load at the southern end just as the load is spread to the north.

Terminate a mix of services at several logical locations, Old Oak (for Crossrail & GWML), Heathrow & Euston are obvious places, using a HS2-HS1 tunnel link you could even terminate some services at St Pancras (for international & ThamesLink) and Stratford for East London links. You don't need to put all your HS2 eggs in one Euston basket.

every possible option of HS2 stations in London was looked at in great detail and the answer keeps coming back as Euston - multiple stations increases costs dramatically