HS2-HS1 on foot

[Bald Rick]

Even from the new HS2 platforms? Are you sure about that?

From the nearest HS2 platform, via the new eastern entrance of Euston, along Phoenix Road and Brill Place to the Midland Road door of St Pancras is less than half a mile, yes.

Bully for you, so can I but not when I have my wife with me, and neither can a great many others. As I've said before, it's easy when you know the way, but not all travellers do, many have suitcases, and many would be simply unable to walk this in 8 minutes even if they knew the way. This thread is not targeted at you or others like you, unless you wish to help.

Well I do wish to help, and perhaps unlike most commenting on this thread, I have actually looked into the problem in a professional capacity.

A very significant majority of people travelling specifically between Euston station and St Pancras (or Kings Cross) station are more than capable of walking, and they do. I see them every time when I do the walk which is several times a week. Very, very few have heavy luggage, and even then many walk. Realistically, we are talking a handful of people a hour that would need the assistance of some form of powered transport between the two. Today most that need the assistance due to heavy bags or being less mobile will take a cab, bus, or (if they haven’t done their research) the tube; it’s as much effort to get up / down the three levels to the tube at Euston and the 2/3 at KXSP as it is to walk.

So the need is relatively small, and certainly less than 1% of people doing the trip.


There are only three solutions to providing some sort of moving walkway / people mover / rapid transit. Street level, above street level, or below street level. Let’s take them in turn:

Street Level means either i) closing one or more roads to all vehicular traffic in full or part, elements of which provide the only vehicular access to some properties, or ii) demolishing listed buildings / social housing / places of worship / all of the above. Either option is very difficult to get consent for, and also very expensive.

Above street level also means closing or restricting one or more roads, or demolition, to provide space for the columns necessary to support it. You then run into the issue of a good number of Camden folk having a view of a walkway / transit out of their bedroom window, or alternatively the walkway / transit users having the opposite view. Again very difficult to get consent for, and elevated metro / walkways are not cheap.

Below street level on that side of Euston is already congested with full 5 separate rail tunnels on three levels and three alignments with the levels changing, plus deep basements of the Library and Francis Crick, plus all the normal gubbins of utilities, plus the safeguarded Crossrail 2 zone. At the St Pancras end you have the Thameslink tunnel and station box plus the basements of the Midland hotel in the way. There is nowhere to go at a reasonable depth. You *could* go anywhere you like if you are prepared to go about 40-50 metres deep, but to do that you need to build two very deep access shafts at either end, which would take a couple of years to build and lots of material in /out, and I have no idea where you might locate them that wouldn’t interfere with the existing tunnels or stations. Page 7 of the TfL document linked upthread shows the challenge quite well. Going that deep also means it takes a long time to make the trip.

So that leaves two complementary low cost solutions, with a third in the future.

1) when Euston is rebuilt, improve the layout and public realm of Phoenix Road / Brill Place, as proposed. Excellent way finding, shared space layout, step free, better sight lines.

2) some form of autonomous pod system, using the same route, and probably at walking pace. This is a little way off, but in my opinion quite likely.

3) if Crossrail 2 gets built, use of the station as a through route. This will take much longer than either of the above, but will be possible for those that have a ticket (it would be barriered, or whatever form barriers take by then).

 

[edwin_m]

if Crossrail 2 gets built, use of the station as a through route. This will take much longer than either of the above, but will be possible for those that have a ticket (it would be barriered, or whatever form barriers take by then).

Presumably the ticketing system could be tweaked so that someone could touch in at one end and if they touched out at the other within, say, 10min, they wouldn't be charged.

 

[Bevan Price]

From the nearest HS2 platform, via the new eastern entrance of Euston, along Phoenix Road and Brill Place to the Midland Road door of St Pancras is less than half a mile, yes.



Well I do wish to help, and perhaps unlike most commenting on this thread, I have actually looked into the problem in a professional capacity.

A very significant majority of people travelling specifically between Euston station and St Pancras (or Kings Cross) station are more than capable of walking, and they do. I see them every time when I do the walk which is several times a week. Very, very few have heavy luggage, and even then many walk. Realistically, we are talking a handful of people a hour that would need the assistance of some form of powered transport between the two. Today most that need the assistance due to heavy bags or being less mobile will take a cab, bus, or (if they haven’t done their research) the tube; it’s as much effort to get up / down the three levels to the tube at Euston and the 2/3 at KXSP as it is to walk.

So the need is relatively small, and certainly less than 1% of people doing the trip.


There are only three solutions to providing some sort of moving walkway / people mover / rapid transit. Street level, above street level, or below street level. Let’s take them in turn:

Street Level means either i) closing one or more roads to all vehicular traffic in full or part, elements of which provide the only vehicular access to some properties, or ii) demolishing listed buildings / social housing / places of worship / all of the above. Either option is very difficult to get consent for, and also very expensive.

Above street level also means closing or restricting one or more roads, or demolition, to provide space for the columns necessary to support it. You then run into the issue of a good number of Camden folk having a view of a walkway / transit out of their bedroom window, or alternatively the walkway / transit users having the opposite view. Again very difficult to get consent for, and elevated metro / walkways are not cheap.

Below street level on that side of Euston is already congested with full 5 separate rail tunnels on three levels and three alignments with the levels changing, plus deep basements of the Library and Francis Crick, plus all the normal gubbins of utilities, plus the safeguarded Crossrail 2 zone. At the St Pancras end you have the Thameslink tunnel and station box plus the basements of the Midland hotel in the way. There is nowhere to go at a reasonable depth. You *could* go anywhere you like if you are prepared to go about 40-50 metres deep, but to do that you need to build two very deep access shafts at either end, which would take a couple of years to build and lots of material in /out, and I have no idea where you might locate them that wouldn’t interfere with the existing tunnels or stations. Page 7 of the TfL document linked upthread shows the challenge quite well. Going that deep also means it takes a long time to make the trip.

So that leaves two complementary low cost solutions, with a third in the future.

1) when Euston is rebuilt, improve the layout and public realm of Phoenix Road / Brill Place, as proposed. Excellent way finding, shared space layout, step free, better sight lines.

2) some form of autonomous pod system, using the same route, and probably at walking pace. This is a little way off, but in my opinion quite likely.

3) if Crossrail 2 gets built, use of the station as a through route. This will take much longer than either of the above, but will be possible for those that have a ticket (it would be barriered, or whatever form barriers take by then).

Below street level for ½ mile would be even worse than most existing pedestrian subways, which many people hate, and avoid as much as possible.

 

[Andyjs247]

I reckon a few golf buggies would suffice for those less able to walk or if it was raining along with some strategically placed dropped kerbs.

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably the ticketing system could be tweaked so that someone could touch in at one end and if they touched out at the other within, say, 10min, they wouldn't be charged.

Presumably it could, but with TfLs finances as they are it could just as easily attract a premium charge!

Below street level for ½ mile would be even worse than most existing pedestrian subways, which many people hate, and avoid as much as possible.

The best comparison I can think of is walking from the Blackfriars Road entrance of Southwark tube to the ex International part of Waterloo via Southwark tube and Waterloo east. Down a level, up 2, then up another, then down one. Far quicker to walk along the Cut!

 

[Jimini]

Presumably it could, but with TfLs finances as they are it could just as easily attract a premium charge!




The best comparison I can think of is walking from the Blackfriars Road entrance of Southwark tube to the ex International part of Waterloo via Southwark tube and Waterloo east. Down a level, up 2, then up another, then down one. Far quicker to walk along the Cut!

Just don't trip and fall into the Windmill for a pint on the way eh

 

[Bald Rick]

Just don't trip and fall into the Windmill for a pint on the way eh

Definitely never happened

 

[BrianW]

Without any improvement whatsoever beyond signage and markings, narrow pavements in a traditional largely residential street arrangement that has been dominated by road vehicles for getting on for a couple of centuries just don't cut it, in my mind, for a major inter-terminal walking route. Urban realm improvements are recognised as being desirable in the area anyway, including a new east side entrance to the Euston station complex to improve E-W permeability, an objective for the larger redevelopment, as the station at the moment is seen as a large 'wall' blocking local surface access across the borough. While I'm not advocating travelators, APMs etc (anymore!), a modest pedestrian improvement of the Phoenix Rd route tying in with the Euston east side entrance proposal seems broadly proportionate to the potential interchange traffic (including HS2 to Thameslink and HS1 Kent domestics as well as Continental services), and there's scope for further improvements in the more distant future, as desired according to changing demand. Generally, I believe pedestrian improvements are desirable LITERALLY EVERYWHERE in our auto-dominated cities.

I'm with you on this. I confess to great disappointment when the HS1-2 rail link was lost (lack of vision etc) but now see this pedestrian link as far superior. The rail link would have cost a fortune and wasted train paths all for a few 'through' passengers at the expense of London passengers- the greater flows. A pedestrian link will facilitate transfers just as if passengers were changing platforms and with distances less than (at worst comparable to) those between airport 'gates'.

I would like to see public realms have emphasis, but not if it means giving NIMBYs etc opportunity to delay etc. That's why I'm suggesting relatively 'modest' improvements on the existing, so that the great is not the enemy of the good. I also recognise the need for 'political' support, which may evaporate if its seen as 'wasting yet more taxpayers' money' rather than cutting taxes on 'hard-working families' eg air passenger duty on flights to holiday destinations.

Perhaps some innovative private sector entrepreneur will start up a kind of Seaborne Emirates Grayling all-weather chauferred Boris-buggy service?

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Could a cut and cover gently sloping subway walkway to avoid lifts and escalators be created under Brill Pl, properly lit wide and fully integrated into the 2 stations with CCTV etc... a bit like the walkways around King's Cross St Pancras Underground Station. Like from the SE platforms to the northern ticket hall.
It'd feel like you've not left the terminal as some people describe at an airport, a few accessibility electric buggies and staff to help the few people who can't walk that far, and bobs your mother's brother you have an integrated system which'll cost loads because the utilities and the construction, costs would probably run into the 10s or nearly 100s of millions of £s but it'd create an amazing super station

 

[AndyMike]

How many extra passengers would be encouraged to use this route (rather than, say, flying) if there was the provision of, say, a moving walkway compared to a well signed and safe walking route (and three tube lines plus several buses).

I’m not advocating a moving walkway. I think a good-quality - ideally covered - walking route would suffice, along with some provision for the less mobile.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2022 ==

Then you can take the tube to do it, if you're elderly/infirm or have heavy luggage.

Especially as by the time HS2 opens, there'll be direct access to the Circle Line platforms at Euston Square from the mainline station, and indeed they'll be at the HS2 end of Euston station

A walking route on the flat is, in my view, far easier with heavy luggage.

 

[jon0844]

The existing walking route is fine, if you know it, but the walk up to (or from) Euston station via Eversholt Street is not exactly great and access into the station directly opposite Phoenix Road is definitely the thing to do.

Also, even though it's pretty well signed right now (although I do think some of the lamppost signs are now missing) I still could not recommend it for use at night, or even in the dark. It might indeed be perfectly safe, but I think it's fair to say that walking down what feels like a backstreet is going to put a lot of people off compared to walking along Euston Road EVEN THOUGH all of the times I've been approached by people begging (or giving sob stories about being robbed etc) have been on Euston Road.

 

[mike57]

Having luggage trolleys you can take between the stations would help

When Ive been changing between Eurostar and Kings Cross I have found a mix of trolleys, labeled Kings Cross, St Pancras and Euston, so people obviously use them to get between the 3 stations. So maybe just have a pool of luggage trolleys for the 3 stations and with step free clearly signed walking routes between the various stations, and trolley parks where you enter/exit underground bits as well as the current ones on platforms. Back that up with someone to move the trolleys around if there are too many in one spot and not enough in another.

EVEN THOUGH all of the times I've been approached by people begging (or giving sob stories about being robbed etc) have been on Euston Road.

Problem is the scammers and beggars will follow the crowds, more targets, but robbers will look for badly lit quieter areas, preferably with multiple ways out down dark side streets. Kings Cross used to be plagued by prostitutes, but they managed to clear them out (moved it elsewhere???), so why not the other criminals and losers.

Compared with the grimness that was the area during the 1980s when I used to travel through twice a week for about 2 years its a vast improvement, although there are obviously still problems.

 

[Bald Rick]

Could a cut and cover gently sloping subway walkway to avoid lifts and escalators be created under Brill Pl, properly lit wide and fully integrated into the 2 stations with CCTV etc... a bit like the walkways around King's Cross St Pancras Underground Station. Like from the SE platforms to the northern ticket hall.

Cut and cover along Brill Place doesn’t fit, unless you want to shift Thameslink at one end, the basement of Francis Crick in the middle and the Northern line at Euston end. Plus all the utilities etc.

 

[jon0844]

Problem is the scammers and beggars will follow the crowds, more targets, but robbers will look for badly lit quieter areas, preferably with multiple ways out down dark side streets.

Indeed. Thing is, I think it's more a perception thing - especially as robberies are probably less of a thing these days (perhaps because people don't often carry cash, or not a lot of it, and phones can be easily blocked*).

Far more likely to be scammed out of money by someone giving a convincing story, and traditional crimes like the theft of bikes or shoplifting seem to be back in vogue right now.

* Sure, often phones are exported abroad where IMEI blocks don't work, but generally speaking I think it's harder to sell on a dodgy mobile as it used to be.

 

[Mikey C]

A walking route on the flat is, in my view, far easier with heavy luggage.

The stations are or will be step free though, so no stairs and level boarding

Indeed flatter than the walk, which requires crossing 3 roads

 

[Shrop]

Well I do wish to help, and perhaps unlike most commenting on this thread, I have actually looked into the problem in a professional capacity.

A very significant majority of people travelling specifically between Euston station and St Pancras (or Kings Cross) station are more than capable of walking, and they do. I see them every time when I do the walk which is several times a week. Very, very few have heavy luggage, and even then many walk. Realistically, we are talking a handful of people a hour that would need the assistance of some form of powered transport between the two. Today most that need the assistance due to heavy bags or being less mobile will take a cab, bus, or (if they haven’t done their research) the tube; it’s as much effort to get up / down the three levels to the tube at Euston and the 2/3 at KXSP as it is to walk.

So the need is relatively small, and certainly less than 1% of people doing the trip.


There are only three solutions to providing some sort of moving walkway / people mover / rapid transit. Street level, above street level, or below street level. Let’s take them in turn:

Street Level means either i) closing one or more roads to all vehicular traffic in full or part, elements of which provide the only vehicular access to some properties, or ii) demolishing listed buildings / social housing / places of worship / all of the above. Either option is very difficult to get consent for, and also very expensive.

Above street level also means closing or restricting one or more roads, or demolition, to provide space for the columns necessary to support it. You then run into the issue of a good number of Camden folk having a view of a walkway / transit out of their bedroom window, or alternatively the walkway / transit users having the opposite view. Again very difficult to get consent for, and elevated metro / walkways are not cheap.

Below street level on that side of Euston is already congested with full 5 separate rail tunnels on three levels and three alignments with the levels changing, plus deep basements of the Library and Francis Crick, plus all the normal gubbins of utilities, plus the safeguarded Crossrail 2 zone. At the St Pancras end you have the Thameslink tunnel and station box plus the basements of the Midland hotel in the way. There is nowhere to go at a reasonable depth. You *could* go anywhere you like if you are prepared to go about 40-50 metres deep, but to do that you need to build two very deep access shafts at either end, which would take a couple of years to build and lots of material in /out, and I have no idea where you might locate them that wouldn’t interfere with the existing tunnels or stations. Page 7 of the TfL document linked upthread shows the challenge quite well. Going that deep also means it takes a long time to make the trip.

So that leaves two complementary low cost solutions, with a third in the future.

1) when Euston is rebuilt, improve the layout and public realm of Phoenix Road / Brill Place, as proposed. Excellent way finding, shared space layout, step free, better sight lines.

2) some form of autonomous pod system, using the same route, and probably at walking pace. This is a little way off, but in my opinion quite likely.

3) if Crossrail 2 gets built, use of the station as a through route. This will take much longer than either of the above, but will be possible for those that have a ticket (it would be barriered, or whatever form barriers take by then).

Okay, so you've worked on this professionally, and you've found plenty of reasons for doing little or nothing.

I guess you've seen my earlier request for information in post #37 above, viz ...

"I wonder what studies have been done to ascertain how many people really do make this transfer now, by whatever means, and what projections have been made to estimate how many will once HS2 is open. It would be very remiss if no-one has done the necessary work to quantify these estimates, so that we don't have to just speculate?"

Perhaps you're the person to answer this if you've worked professionally on it?

 

[Bald Rick]

Okay, so you've worked on this professionally, and you've found plenty of reasons for doing little or nothing.

I guess you've seen my earlier request for information in post #37 above, viz ...

"I wonder what studies have been done to ascertain how many people really do make this transfer now, by whatever means, and what projections have been made to estimate how many will once HS2 is open. It would be very remiss if no-one has done the necessary work to quantify these estimates, so that we don't have to just speculate?"

Perhaps you're the person to answer this if you've worked professionally on it?

Sometimes doing little or nothing is the right answer. Plenty of examples of that.

In this case there is certainly no reason to do something that will costs tens of millions of pounds.


The answers are not in the public domain, so I’m not at liberty to say.

What I will say is to repeat what I wrote above, that the number of people doing the transfer who are able to walk is nearly all of them, and that is not expected to change post HS2. The absolute number of people expected to travel between Euston and St Pancras / Kings Cross stations will increase proportionally less than the increase in users at Euston triggered by HS2.

And finally, the number of people making the connection between HS2 and HS1 will only be a small proportion of those travelling between Euston and St Pancras / Kings Cross.

 

[Shrop]

Sometimes doing little or nothing is the right answer. Plenty of examples of that.

In this case there is certainly no reason to do something that will costs tens of millions of pounds.


The answers are not in the public domain, so I’m not at liberty to say.

What I will say is to repeat what I wrote above, that the number of people doing the transfer who are able to walk is nearly all of them, and that is not expected to change post HS2. The absolute number of people expected to travel between Euston and St Pancras / Kings Cross stations will increase proportionally less than the increase in users at Euston triggered by HS2.

And finally, the number of people making the connection between HS2 and HS1 will only be a small proportion of those travelling between Euston and St Pancras / Kings Cross.

A lot of useful ideas further up in this thread would not cost anywhere near tens of millions of pounds.

I'm also wary of your comment that you can't provide figures as they're not in the public domain, that smacks of wanting to hide something. A bland comment that nearly all of the people making the transfer are able to walk, says nothing useful other than to perpetuate this secrecy, and it also fails to recognise the value of people who ARE able to walk, just wanting to do so with greater confidence about their route, and to feel a bit more looked after and welcome during their journey.

 

[zwk500]

A lot of useful ideas further up in this thread would not cost anywhere near tens of millions of pounds.

I'm also wary of your comment that you can't provide figures as they're not in the public domain, that smacks of wanting to hide something. A bland comment that nearly all of the people making the transfer are able to walk, says nothing useful other than to perpetuate this secrecy, and it also fails to recognise the value of people who ARE able to walk, just wanting to do so with greater confidence about their route, and to feel a bit more looked after and welcome during their journey.

Have you got any data about how people feel about the existing walking routes? I'd be very interested to see survey results.

 

[Shrop]

Have you got any data about how people feel about the existing walking routes? I'd be very interested to see survey results.

I've not worked on the project, so no. But if I had then perhaps I should just say it's not in the public domain?

 

[YorksLad12]

The best comparison I can think of is walking from the Blackfriars Road entrance of Southwark tube to the ex International part of Waterloo via Southwark tube and Waterloo east. Down a level, up 2, then up another, then down one. Far quicker to walk along the Cut!

And the actual walking part would be about the same. I guess it would depend on the weather as to which option to take...

On the Euston-StP walking route: via Euston Road is obvious on maps, and is the one most people would go for, despite the crowds. An alternative walking route would need (to me) to be wholly a walking route; so no road vehicles. Cycles permitted as an alternative route. But then that means less general patronage and more risk of undesireables, so you're back to where you were.

My personal wishlist for that part of town is for an entrance to the Underground from the British Library (or just outside it). That would save having to cross Midland Road and negotiate the sort-of portico structure at the hotel. At the moment, once past that I walk up the ramp and down the steps to get to Kings Cross; an Underground entrance at, say where the Origin Coffee shop is would allow covered access to both St P and KX in the same way that to cross Euston Road outside KX you'd use the Underground entrances as a subway. Between a BL entrance and Euston you'd only be exposed to the elements for 7 minutes.

If you imagine being at the Circle/Met/H&C gateline, I'd punch a hole through the stairs underneath the travel centre. It shouldn't interfere with any Tube lines, 'just' services, and might clear some of the railway foot traffic off the streets.

 

[Bald Rick]

A lot of useful ideas further up in this thread would not cost anywhere near tens of millions of pounds.

which ideas are those, and how do you know what they would cost?


as regards to ‘secrecy’, I don’t know what line of work you are (or were) in, but I’m willing to bet that you didn’t make A habit of publishing details of it in public.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2022 ==

If you imagine being at the Circle/Met/H&C gateline, I'd punch a hole through the stairs underneath the travel centre. It shouldn't interfere with any Tube lines, 'just' services, and might clear some of the railway foot traffic off the streets.

the Thameslink tunnel is right behind (and a little below) the travel centre…

 

[YorksLad12]

the Thameslink tunnel is right behind (and a little below) the travel centre…

The one line that didn't show up on Google Maps when I turned on the 'transport' layer...

 

[zwk500]

I've not worked on the project, so no. But if I had then perhaps I should just say it's not in the public domain?

Or maybe you should stop challenge others to provide data to back up their statements whilst refusing to provide any yourself?

 

[Shrop]

as regards to ‘secrecy’, I don’t know what line of work you are (or were) in, but I’m willing to bet that you didn’t make A habit of publishing details of it in public.

Most of what we did in Local Authority (Traffic Management) was in publicly available reports, and if the public weren't happy with that, they could request further information via the FOI act. So no, we didn't tend to hide things.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2022 ==

Or maybe you should stop challenge others to provide data to back up their statements whilst refusing to provide any yourself?

I'm in this because I like the idea of advancing rail projects, I'm not in it for playing games.

 

[Ediswan]

Cut and cover along Brill Place doesn’t fit, unless you want to shift Thameslink at one end, the basement of Francis Crick in the middle and the Northern line at Euston end. Plus all the utilities etc.

I have been in that basement, and seen the building plans. I don't recall the basement extending out under Brill Place. Just the area under the surface building.

 

[Bald Rick]

Most of what we did in Local Authority (Traffic Management) was in publicly available reports, and if the public weren't happy with that, they could request further information via the FOI act.

Most.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2022 ==

I have been in that basement, and seen the building plans. I don't recall the basement extending out under Brill Place. Just the area under the surface building.

oh it doesn’t. But there’s very sensitive equipment in it, the owners of which do not want a tunnel next to (or being dug).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Jan 2022 ==

I'm in this because I like the idea of advancing rail projects,

but this isn’t a rail project!

 

[HSTEd]

There are some places where cable cars are "serious" transport options, such as cities in Colombia, so it shouldn't be written off as a solution. However, there might be a concern with privacy if it overflies residential areas.

Given how short the journey is you could just frost the lower windows of the gondola vehicles.

 

[Shrop]

but this isn’t a rail project!

Ah, that would explain a lot of your comments, if you think that facilitating getting passengers between two major rail routes which are (in your words) less than half a mile apart, isn't anything to do with railways.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ah, that would explain a lot of your comments, if you think that facilitating getting passengers between two major rail routes which are (in your words) less than half a mile apart, isn't anything to do with railways.

of course it is related to railways. But unless it’s building a railway (or a station), a rail project it is not. Unless you think it would only be used by rail passengers?