HS2-HS1 on foot

[MarkyT]

When Euston Square station is properly connected to Euston, the sub-surface lines will probably become the best route to/from St Pancras for those unwilling or unable to walk it.

Paradoxically still a fairly long walk though, by the time the distance to and from the platforms at each end are added up, but easier and shorter than alternative deep-level tube routes I agree, and all assuming you've got a ticket, pass or PAYG method valid on TfL for the short journey, which may not be the case automatically if you combine (say) separate HS2 and Eurostar bookings for a journey.

 

[Ken H]

Its OK on a sunny day. But will be a pain when its raining sideways.
I think it needs a dedicated shuttle bus from Euston Station bus station to a stop just north of the Great Northern Hotel

 

[Dr Hoo]

Paradoxically still a fairly long walk though, by the time the distance to and from the platforms at each end are added up, but easier and shorter than alternative deep-level tube routes I agree, and all assuming you've got a ticket, pass or PAYG method valid on TfL for the short journey, which may not be the case automatically if you combine (say) separate HS2 and Eurostar bookings for a journey.

Isn't it possible to use a bank card or various mobile phone payment options to pay for a straightforward tube (or bus) journey? (I don't know as I always use Oyster or my bus pass.)

I am always baffled that able-bodied people who have supposedly managed to organise long trips (such as Shrewsbury to Amsterdam or something) involving multiple changes, as well as things like hotels, car hire, foreign currency, passport, packing and so on; and paid hundreds of pounds into the bargain seem to completely go to pieces when faced with a 'short hop' tube or bus journey, let alone a short stroll or shower of rain.

 

[MattRat]

Isn't it possible to use a bank card or various mobile phone payment options to pay for a straightforward tube (or bus) journey? (I don't know as I always use Oyster or my bus pass.)

I am always baffled that able-bodied people who have supposedly managed to organise long trips (such as Shrewsbury to Amsterdam or something) involving multiple changes, as well as things like hotels, car hire, foreign currency, passport, packing and so on; and paid hundreds of pounds into the bargain seem to completely go to pieces when faced with a 'short hop' tube or bus journey, let alone a short stroll or shower of rain.

Maybe then just don't want any more stupid complications. It's the straw that broke the camel's back situation.

Plus, why is it seemingly so easy to enter London, yet when you get there, it feels like they never want you to leave.

 

[Shrop]

I am always baffled that able-bodied people who have supposedly managed to organise long trips (such as Shrewsbury to Amsterdam or something) involving multiple changes, as well as things like hotels, car hire, foreign currency, passport, packing and so on; and paid hundreds of pounds into the bargain seem to completely go to pieces when faced with a 'short hop' tube or bus journey, let alone a short stroll or shower of rain.

You wouldn't be referring to me by any chance with your mention of Shrewsbury? If so then did you not read my comment in the original post which said "... even for those who can cope with escalators and luggage etc (as I can, as well as being pretty familiar with the various routes), it would still be helpful, as well as conducive to future rail-based trips, to have something that makes the transfer easier.

XAM2175 clarified the point very well in post #16. Your point about going to pieces seems unnecessarily provocative, and lacking in understanding of the comfort that many travelling people prefer.

 

[CW2]

Integrating HS1 and HS2 is one of those schemes which seems "obvious" until you look at the numbers involved - both the costs and the amount of potential passengers.

People currently travel into Euston for onward services on HS1 from St Pancras. Some walk, some take the Tube, some take a bus, others take a taxi. How many people would benefit from some form of fixed link Euston - St Pancras e.g. a moving walkway? How many additional passengers would make the journey because of the existence of this link (or looked at the other way, how many people are prevented from making the journey because of the absence of such a link)? I suggest the answer is probably vanishingly small, so the business case for such a link is non-existent.

 

[Shrop]

Integrating HS1 and HS2 is one of those schemes which seems "obvious" until you look at the numbers involved - both the costs and the amount of potential passengers.

People currently travel into Euston for onward services on HS1 from St Pancras. Some walk, some take the Tube, some take a bus, others take a taxi. How many people would benefit from some form of fixed link Euston - St Pancras e.g. a moving walkway? How many additional passengers would make the journey because of the existence of this link (or looked at the other way, how many people are prevented from making the journey because of the absence of such a link)? I suggest the answer is probably vanishingly small, so the business case for such a link is non-existent.

I'm not convinced that the numbers involved would be "vanishingly small", but in the context of £100bn (plus or minus whatever), the cost of providing a dedicated moving walkway for at least some of the route, is also vanishingly small.

The cost of providing good quality direction signing for pedestrians is even "vanishingly small" in comparison purely with the cost of a moving walkway, yet the signing that has been provided in recent years has been extremely poor at best.

The study that was linked in post #2 suggests costs of £2m-£4m and apparently doesn't even include any such walkway. I think we should be able to do better than this. I wonder what studies have been done to ascertain how many people really do make this transfer now, by whatever means, and what projections have been made to estimate how many will once HS2 is open. It would be very remiss if no-one has done the necessary work to quantify these estimates, so that we don't have to just speculate?

 

[MattRat]

The study that was linked in post #2 suggests costs of £2m-£4m and apparently doesn't even include any such walkway. I think we should be able to do better than this. I wonder what studies have been done to ascertain how many people really do make this transfer now, by whatever means, and what projections have been made to estimate how many will once HS2 is open. It would be very remiss if no-one has done the necessary work to quantify these estimates, so that we don't have to just speculate?

Almost as if they didn't actually want anything done. It's as if they don't want people crossing London, and would rather they stay in London....

 

[MarkyT]

The study that was linked in post #2 suggests costs of £2m-£4m and apparently doesn't even include any such walkway. I think we should be able to do better than this. I wonder what studies have been done to ascertain how many people really do make this transfer now, by whatever means, and what projections have been made to estimate how many will once HS2 is open. It would be very remiss if no-one has done the necessary work to quantify these estimates, so that we don't have to just speculate?

I think the proposal is a good start though, especially the east side entrance into Euston station which makes a short pedestrian route, away from Euston Rd, plausible. It might be improved further once the demand is demonstrated, and I expect there will be considerable demand, as so many additional connections are thereby enabled, to Thameslink, Kent HS1 domestics, etc. It is not only HS2 - Eurostar traffic.

 

[SynthD]

While they’re rebuilding the classic side of Euston the encouragement towards the nice route will be seriously limited. The main road route could do with that Pancras hotel removing those hedge boxes and give the pavement space back.
Once it’s all done, the nice route (Phoenix/Brill) could do with wider pavements. But I fear people will grab a taxi when it’s cold and wet and form a habit.

 

[JonathanH]

While they’re rebuilding the classic side of Euston the encouragement towards the nice route will be seriously limited. The main road route could do with that Pancras hotel removing those hedge boxes and give the pavement space back.
Once it’s all done, the nice route (Phoenix/Brill) could do with wider pavements. But I fear people will grab a taxi when it’s cold and wet and form a habit.

I'm not sure I'd call the Phoenix/Brill route the 'nice route'. Doric/Dangoor would have better potential and is more direct. An entrance onto Eversholt Road any further north is somewhat difficult given where platform 1 is.

 

[Chester1]

Integrating HS1 and HS2 is one of those schemes which seems "obvious" until you look at the numbers involved - both the costs and the amount of potential passengers.

People currently travel into Euston for onward services on HS1 from St Pancras. Some walk, some take the Tube, some take a bus, others take a taxi. How many people would benefit from some form of fixed link Euston - St Pancras e.g. a moving walkway? How many additional passengers would make the journey because of the existence of this link (or looked at the other way, how many people are prevented from making the journey because of the absence of such a link)? I suggest the answer is probably vanishingly small, so the business case for such a link is non-existent.

I agree with this. The market for journeys from Midlands and the North to the continent is insufficient for direct train services. Some who would take a direct train won't do a change of station no matter how easy the change becomes. I have used Eurostar on multiple occasions when flying would have been easier and cheaper but for the vast majority of people Eurostar is only appealing for journeys to and from London.

Its unfortunate that heritage concerns stopped the HS2 terminus around Kings Cross and St Pancras. The review of potential terminal locations came to the conclusion that Euston was the only viable option that met all criteria.

 

[MattRat]

I agree with this. The market for journeys from Midlands and the North to the continent is insufficient for direct train services. Some who would take a direct train won't do a change of station no matter how easy the change becomes. I have used Eurostar on multiple occasions when flying would have been easier and cheaper but for the vast majority of people Eurostar is only appealing for journeys to and from London.

Surely we should be moving away from plane travel where possible though.

 

[JonathanH]

Surely we should be moving away from plane travel where possible though.

No powered travel is without environmental impacts. We seem to be discussing additional construction or transport services here to avoid a walk of less than half a mile.

 

[Shrop]

No powered travel is without environmental impacts. We seem to be discussing additional construction or transport services here to avoid a walk of less than half a mile.

"Less than half a mile"? Or a little more than that? And what's wrong with creating some small form of powered transport that potentially benefits a lot of people, whilst also encouraging them out of cars and aeroplanes?

If you want to express concern about people who walk around half a mile, try looking at just about every school in the country and see how much fuel is wasted transporting children shorter distances than this, whilst simultaneously depriving them of valuable exercise, and also preventing them from learning road sense. And do you really think children travelling to school with perhaps a small bag, need transport in comparison with rail passengers carrying suitcases?

 

[BrianW]

Looking at the walk via Phoenix Road on Googleearth, it looks quite pleasant. The signs may be rather 'architectural' but they are present. Rather less clear at the Euston end but this could be worked up as Euston develops. A shuttle bus/ pods could develop (there is width) as demand develops and at relatively low cost (liitle infrastucture development necessary).

Heathrow was without link to Central London (for which there must have been huge potential demand) other than the 'Airline bus' to an 'air terminal' at Kensington or Victoria for YEARS!!

A Euston eastern exit/ entrance in the vicinity of Phoenix Road should easily demonstrate/ facilitate/ 'prove' what value there may be in further investment, esp if financial support is a bit short at the time.

'Passengers make their own way between stations'; I imagine that 'gatelines' and ticketing can be adapted to whatever seems most suitable come the time. Umbrellas, bus, tube, taxis also possibilities

"Less than half a mile"? Or a little more than that? And what's wrong with creating some small form of powered transport that potentially benefits a lot of people, whilst also encouraging them out of cars and aeroplanes?

If you want to express concern about people who walk around half a mile, try looking at just about every school in the country and see how much fuel is wasted transporting children shorter distances than this, whilst simultaneously depriving them of valuable exercise, and also preventing them from learning road sense. And do you really think children travelling to school with perhaps a small bag, need transport in comparison with rail passengers carrying suitcases?

I believe that hedgehog 'runners' are evolving at the expense of 'rollers'; similarly children without legs and with longer thumbs ... and as for being let out unsupervised?

 

[JonathanH]

If you want to express concern about people who walk around half a mile, try looking at just about every school in the country and see how much fuel is wasted transporting children shorter distances than this, whilst simultaneously depriving them of valuable exercise, and also preventing them from learning road sense. And do you really think children travelling to school with perhaps a small bag, need transport in comparison with rail passengers carrying suitcases?

There is a way to deal with that but it isn't politically acceptable at the moment.

"Less than half a mile"? Or a little more than that? And what's wrong with creating some small form of powered transport that potentially benefits a lot of people, whilst also encouraging them out of cars and aeroplanes?

Euston to St Pancras via Doric Way, the Ossulston Estate and Dangoor Walk is about 0.45 miles door to door.

 

[mmh]

The title of this thread is a little fantastical.

Nobody will be travelling internationally between Euston and St Pancras. What does happen, and this thread has managed to remarkably avoid, is lots of people do travel domestically between them. Loads of journeys that require going between the two.

 

[Shrop]

There is a way to deal with that but it isn't politically acceptable at the moment.

Ah yes, I keep forgetting that political correctness trumps the value of exercise, the value of teaching road sense, and the value of not wasting environmental resources. The combined value in fact, must all bow down to political correctness.

Euston to St Pancras via Doric Way, the Ossulston Estate and Dangoor Walk is about 0.45 miles door to door.

And from the HS2 hub?

 

[JonathanH]

The title of this thread is a little fantastical.

Nobody will be travelling internationally between Euston and St Pancras. What does happen, and this thread has managed to remarkably avoid, is lots of people do travel domestically between them. Loads of journeys that require going between the two.

Indeed, and it needs to be marketed just how convenient it is to do so and the destinations that can be reached domestically from St Pancras. It really is much easier than people make out.

 

[MattRat]

No powered travel is without environmental impacts. We seem to be discussing additional construction or transport services here to avoid a walk of less than half a mile.

We are discussing how to make a journey more appealing so less people travel by air. It could be as simple as a travelator, which even add in the trains produces far less Co2 than a plane.

The title of this thread is a little fantastical.

Nobody will be travelling internationally between Euston and St Pancras. What does happen, and this thread has managed to remarkably avoid, is lots of people do travel domestically between them. Loads of journeys that require going between the two.

You still made a business case for why it's needed.

 

[Jimini]

Random memory of this trip being undertaken by the Liverpool squad en route to Madrid for their Europa League game in 2010 whilst the Icelandic volcano (not even going to attempt to spell it!) grounded all flights round these parts due to the infamous ash cloud.

The Liverpool squad went VWC to Euston, then coach to St. Pancras, then onwards to Spain via Eurostar. They almost missed the E* service as the coach taking them from Euston to St. Pancras got snarled up in traffic on Euston Road for over half an hour!

 

[Chester1]

Surely we should be moving away from plane travel where possible though.

Yes but most people won't until the alternatives are a similar price and speed. Even a direct service would struggle to compete, let alone a journey changing stations, no matter how easy. I have personally taken the train down to London to take the Eurostar but its not remotely normal for Northerners to do it.

Does anyone have the stats for the number of domestic and international journeys involving changing between Euston and Pancras (or Kings Cross)?

 

[Hadders]

Euston to St Pancras via Doric Way, the Ossulston Estate and Dangoor Walk is about 0.45 miles door to door.

This is my preferred route from Euston to St Pancras or Kings Cross. I've managed to do train at Euston (one of the higher number platforms iirc) to train on platform 1 at Kings Cross in 8 minutes. I didn't run but it was a rather brisk walk!

 

[MattRat]

Yes but most people won't until the alternatives are a similar price and speed. Even a direct service would struggle to compete, let alone a journey changing stations, no matter how easy. I have personally taken the train down to London to take the Eurostar but its not remotely normal for Northerners to do it.

Does anyone have the stats for the number of domestic and international journeys involving changing between Euston and Pancras (or Kings Cross)?

So we shouldn't do anything? And people wonder why the railways are in the state they are in.....

 

[AndyMike]

Psychologically there is a very big difference between walking a distance that later turns out approximately 1 km but that is entirely within terminal buildings and very clearly signposted, and walking a distance that you know is approximately 1 km and that takes you to a completely different station, and that is almost entirely out in the open and on public roads.

The key to making the interchange palatable lies in moving the average person's perception of the task to be closer to that which they already accept from at airports.

Absolutely right - and that arguably includes provision of weather protection.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2022 ==

And then people wonder why Euston Road is so bad....

Or, more fundamentally, why people are put off travelling by train.

 

[randyrippley]

There's a simple answer: A cable car
Like that one down by the Dome

 

[AndyMike]

You wouldn't be referring to me by any chance with your mention of Shrewsbury? If so then did you not read my comment in the original post which said "... even for those who can cope with escalators and luggage etc (as I can, as well as being pretty familiar with the various routes), it would still be helpful, as well as conducive to future rail-based trips, to have something that makes the transfer easier.

XAM2175 clarified the point very well in post #16. Your point about going to pieces seems unnecessarily provocative, and lacking in understanding of the comfort that many travelling people prefer.

Exactly. And this is something that needs to be addressed if we’re to encourage people away from other modes of transport. Providing a bare minimum of passenger service and convenience won’t be enough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2022 ==

I agree with this. The market for journeys from Midlands and the North to the continent is insufficient for direct train services. Some who would take a direct train won't do a change of station no matter how easy the change becomes. I have used Eurostar on multiple occasions when flying would have been easier and cheaper but for the vast majority of people Eurostar is only appealing for journeys to and from London.

Its unfortunate that heritage concerns stopped the HS2 terminus around Kings Cross and St Pancras. The review of potential terminal locations came to the conclusion that Euston was the only viable option that met all criteria.

Increasing that market should be both a political and a commercial objective. Does not the advent of HS2 in particular offer an opportunity to do just that?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2022 ==

So we shouldn't do anything? And people wonder why the railways are in the state they are in.....

There does seem to be a real lack of ambition inherent in a lot of this discussion; a feeling that passengers should be given a bare minimum of comfort and service, and a view that Eurostar’s market is already as big as it’s ever going to get, so why bother trying to encourage anybody else to use it? It’s quite depressing, and more than a little telling.

 

[HSTEd]

There's a simple answer: A cable car
Like that one down by the Dome

I don't know if you are serious but I don't think it's the worst idea in the world.

Plenty of ezamples of them being used in an urban environment and the journey and wait times for a gondola won't be long at all.

 

[randyrippley]

I don't know if you are serious but I don't think it's the worst idea in the world.

Plenty of ezamples of them being used in an urban environment and the journey and wait times for a gondola won't be long at all.

I was being serious
Gets the passengers out of the ground level traffic and congestion, doesn't block roads and avoids long walks.
And minimal infrastructure needs