HS2-HS1 on foot

[MattRat]

I was being serious
Gets the passengers out of the ground level traffic and congestion, doesn't block roads and avoids long walks.

Why not just suggest a monorail? At least you'd have a catchy song to go with it

 

[randyrippley]

Why not just suggest a monorail? At least you'd have a catchy song to go with it

Engineering overkill, and you wouldn't be able to climb the cars from ground level loading to transit height. Cablecars can climb rapidly

 

[edwin_m]

There are some places where cable cars are "serious" transport options, such as cities in Colombia, so it shouldn't be written off as a solution. However, there might be a concern with privacy if it overflies residential areas.

 

[mike57]

I always thought that when HS2 was beiing planned that the HS1 - HS2 connection would need sorting. It would have been better if space for HS2 could have been found in the Kings Cross/St Pancras area, but thats history. Surley the solution is a properly signed and lit walking route, away from the horror that is Euston Rd. Various things would work, coloured footprints, or a coloured line. Just make it clear and bear in mind that a lot of people using it will not know the area, or possibly even speak English. The distance isnt that far, make sure its flat, most people have suitcases with wheels these days, and perhaps try and provide some weather protection. Anything more just seems like overkill considering the distance involved. For those have mobility problems electric buggies (with drivers) could be provided, a bit like you see at airports, to be booked with the other assistance you need when you book your journey. As well as a route to St Pancras International you also probably need one to the Thameslink platforms and the King Cross tube station.

The nearest equivilent I am familiar with is Gare du Nord to Gare de L'Est in Paris, a similar distance, and equally sketchy signage. Fine if you know it, but if you dont know the area then a nightmare.

Really sorting the route between HS1/Thameslink/Tube and HS2 should have been part of the initial design, not an afterthought

 

[MarkyT]

There are some places where cable cars are "serious" transport options, such as cities in Colombia, so it shouldn't be written off as a solution. However, there might be a concern with privacy if it overflies residential areas.

Particularly useful for very hilly cities. Example here in La Paz, Bolivia:

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Jan 2022 ==

I always thought that when HS2 was beiing planned that the HS1 - HS2 connection would need sorting. It would have been better if space for HS2 could have been found in the Kings Cross/St Pancras area, but thats history. Surley the solution is a properly signed and lit walking route, away from the horror that is Euston Rd. Various things would work, coloured footprints, or a coloured line. Just make it clear and bear in mind that a lot of people using it will not know the area, or possibly even speak English. The distance isnt that far, make sure its flat, most people have suitcases with wheels these days, and perhaps try and provide some weather protection. Anything more just seems like overkill considering the distance involved. For those have mobility problems electric buggies (with drivers) could be provided, a bit like you see at airports, to be booked with the other assistance you need when you book your journey. As well as a route to St Pancras International you also probably need one to the Thameslink platforms and the King Cross tube station.

The nearest equivilent I am familiar with is Gare du Nord to Gare de L'Est in Paris, a similar distance, and equally sketchy signage. Fine if you know it, but if you dont know the area then a nightmare.

Really sorting the route between HS1/Thameslink/Tube and HS2 should have been part of the initial design, not an afterthought

Excellent summary, reflecting my thoughts too. The TfL proposal is a start. Just hope there's some money availabile to do it.

 

[CW2]

Let's just be clear that the vast majority of people arriving at Euston by whatever means (Conventional rail, HS2, Underground) are continuing to places other than St Pancras. The number of additional passengers who might be attracted to use the Euston - St Pancras link is likewise very small. (Would you decide on whether or not to use rail for your through journey on the basis of presence or absence of a covered walkway linking Euston and St Pancras, or would price, journey times, and availability play a much bigger role?) Also, isn't there a proposal to create a direct link to Euston Square underground station? Surely that does the job?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Engineering overkill, and you wouldn't be able to climb the cars from ground level loading to transit height. Cablecars can climb rapidly

For a distance of less than half a mile, a cable car would also be engineering overkill... and over such a short distance between stations at pretty much the same elevation (and no bodies of water or otherwise impassable obstructions to cross) it's absolutely the wrong solution to the issue we're trying to address.

 

[swt_passenger]

Also, isn't there a proposal to create a direct link to Euston Square underground station? Surely that does the job?

Yes there is, and I suspect when that‘s completed it will definitely be seen as a good reason not to build anything else on the surface.

 

[mike57]

Also, isn't there a proposal to create a direct link to Euston Square underground station? Surely that does the job?

If you need the Piccadilly tubes or Thameslink, then its going to be quicker to walk to King Cross than to go to Euston Square and change at Kings Cross. I agree the absence or presence of a covered walkway isnt going to make the difference between making the journey or not, but it is all part of the experience. As I said earlier I think anything more than decent signage and possibly some cover is not needed. To be honest if you have suitcases then walking a flat signed route between Euston and St Pancras International/Tubes/Thameslink is going to be preferable to navigating the labyrinth of the underground, with escalators or stairs (and quicker)

E

 

[AndyMike]

I always thought that when HS2 was beiing planned that the HS1 - HS2 connection would need sorting. It would have been better if space for HS2 could have been found in the Kings Cross/St Pancras area, but thats history. Surley the solution is a properly signed and lit walking route, away from the horror that is Euston Rd. Various things would work, coloured footprints, or a coloured line. Just make it clear and bear in mind that a lot of people using it will not know the area, or possibly even speak English. The distance isnt that far, make sure its flat, most people have suitcases with wheels these days, and perhaps try and provide some weather protection. Anything more just seems like overkill considering the distance involved. For those have mobility problems electric buggies (with drivers) could be provided, a bit like you see at airports, to be booked with the other assistance you need when you book your journey. As well as a route to St Pancras International you also probably need one to the Thameslink platforms and the King Cross tube station.

The nearest equivilent I am familiar with is Gare du Nord to Gare de L'Est in Paris, a similar distance, and equally sketchy signage. Fine if you know it, but if you dont know the area then a nightmare.

Really sorting the route between HS1/Thameslink/Tube and HS2 should have been part of the initial design, not an afterthought

Agree completely. This need not be a complex thing at all, but some meaningful provision is necessary.

 

[XAM2175]

Ah yes, I keep forgetting that political correctness trumps the value of exercise, the value of teaching road sense, and the value of not wasting environmental resources. The combined value in fact, must all bow down to political correctness.

When you're done with your Daily Mail paint-by-numbers opinion piece, I'd suggest that you consider that the 'politically correct' classes are most likely to be in agreement with on this matter. The problem lies in political expediency - the measures that address short-distance use of oversized vehicles are things like road pricing and traffic regulations that alienate voters who find themselves inconvenienced by such lofty goals.

Increasing that market should be both a political and a commercial objective. Does not the advent of HS2 in particular offer an opportunity to do just that? ... There does seem to be a real lack of ambition inherent in a lot of this discussion; a feeling that passengers should be given a bare minimum of comfort and service, and a view that Eurostar’s market is already as big as it’s ever going to get, so why bother trying to encourage anybody else to use it? It’s quite depressing, and more than a little telling.

Surley the solution is a properly signed and lit walking route, away from the horror that is Euston Rd. Various things would work, coloured footprints, or a coloured line. Just make it clear and bear in mind that a lot of people using it will not know the area, or possibly even speak English. The distance isnt that far, make sure its flat, most people have suitcases with wheels these days, and perhaps try and provide some weather protection. Anything more just seems like overkill considering the distance involved.

Quite so. I don't think that there are many people who are under the illusion that HS2 to HS1 connections (and vice-versa) will be anything more than a small proportion of the overall non-connecting traffic on either route, and certainly even the most optimistic of the plausible estimates couldn't build a decent business case for a rail connection between the two lines with services skipping St Pancras.

At the same time though my personal opinion is that it would be short-sighted to ignore the potential development of a market for connections, given the reduction in journey times that HS2 will achieve - because it brings major centres like Birmingham and Manchester and Liverpool into the area of places that can already connect to Eurostar from the existing London terminals, and I think that there is genuine commercial value in that even before you consider environmental goals (and any 'prodding' that may come to be introduced along those lines).

(Would you decide on whether or not to use rail for your through journey on the basis of presence or absence of a covered walkway linking Euston and St Pancras, or would price, journey times, and availability play a much bigger role?)

For me it wouldn't be a big deal - but that's because 1) I already know about the nature of the interchange, and 2) I'm already accustomed to making unprotected connections from Euston to Heathrow by tube. I know roughly how long it'll take, and that I need to add a comfortable amount of padding to the schedule, and I know the route I need to take.

But in terms of developing a solid market for the connection the value of a defined and suitably-protected route can't be overstated. It needs to be both appealing to people considering using it for the first time, and of sufficient quality that reliability that people, having used it, are willing to use it again. It doesn't need to be very much; after all, we know that airline passengers will tolerate a fair bit of walking if they're given sufficient guidance and a reasonable level of comfort and amenity.

What needs to be considered as well though is that airline passengers know their connections are protected and that they won't be penalised for a delay that isn't of their causing, and further that they have their EC261 rights in cases of significant disruption. Eurostar and the parties responsible for ticketing on HS2 will need to co-operate on their connections policy if 'average' customers are to feel truly confident planning such journeys.

 

[MattRat]

When you're done with your Daily Mail paint-by-numbers opinion piece, I'd suggest that you consider that the 'politically correct' classes are most likely to be in agreement with on this matter. The problem lies in political expediency - the measures that address short-distance use of oversized vehicles are things like road pricing and traffic regulations that alienate voters who find themselves inconvenienced by such lofty goals.

Then how did the Netherlands move away from being car centric?

 

[XAM2175]

Then how did the Netherlands move away from being car centric?

The short answer is that car usage in NL is not substantially different to that in GB, in overall statistical measures.

The medium-length answer is that car usage in certain parts of the Netherlands - such as city centres - has been reduced by a mix of regulation (such as pedestrianisation and the introduction of Low Emissions Zones) and also inducement (by making it easier and less expensive to use bicycles and/or public transport for shorter journeys).

The more comprehensive answer will need a thread of its own and input from other users.

 

[MattRat]

The short answer is that car usage in NL is not substantially different to that in GB, in overall statistical measures.

The medium-length answer is that car usage in certain parts of the Netherlands - such as city centres - has been reduced by a mix of regulation (such as pedestrianisation and the introduction of Low Emissions Zones) and also inducement (by making it easier and less expensive to use bicycles and/or public transport for shorter journeys).

The more comprehensive answer will need a thread of its own and input from other users.

The point is, it is possible to get people to change their habits.

 

[XAM2175]

The point is, it is possible to get people to change their habits.

If you care to actually read my post you'll see that I challenged the poster's placing of blame, not the truth of this fact.

 

[gordonthemoron]

There's a simple answer: A cable car
Like that one down by the Dome

Or even better, a Schwebebahn. Personally I always walk via the Cock Tavern on Phoenix Road for a pitstop

 

[MarkyT]

But in terms of developing a solid market for the connection the value of a defined and suitably-protected route can't be overstated. It needs to be both appealing to people considering using it for the first time, and of sufficient quality that reliability that people, having used it, are willing to use it again. It doesn't need to be very much; after all, we know that airline passengers will tolerate a fair bit of walking if they're given sufficient guidance and a reasonable level of comfort and amenity.

A younger person, travelling light on business (say) who does the journey regularly, if not frequently, will soon become familiar with and appreciate the quick and rock-solid dependability of a pedestrian transfer. I find once I've experienced an area, walking distances at subsequent visits are psychologically shrunk in my perception. This can be reinforced by 'space syntax' techniques, straight sightlines, good signage, lighting, sense of safety and security, freedom from traffic risks etc. A bit of shelter en route, even if not continuous, could help make the route more attractive in cases where the weather changes.

What needs to be considered as well though is that airline passengers know their connections are protected and that they won't be penalised for a delay that isn't of their causing, and further that they have their EC261 rights in cases of significant disruption. Eurostar and the parties responsible for ticketing on HS2 will need to co-operate on their connections policy if 'average' customers are to feel truly confident planning such journeys.

Very much agree. Should include classic rail and other public transport mode connections too.

 

[Ken H]

I always thought that when HS2 was beiing planned that the HS1 - HS2 connection would need sorting. It would have been better if space for HS2 could have been found in the Kings Cross/St Pancras area, but thats history. Surley the solution is a properly signed and lit walking route, away from the horror that is Euston Rd. Various things would work, coloured footprints, or a coloured line. Just make it clear and bear in mind that a lot of people using it will not know the area, or possibly even speak English. The distance isnt that far, make sure its flat, most people have suitcases with wheels these days, and perhaps try and provide some weather protection. Anything more just seems like overkill considering the distance involved. For those have mobility problems electric buggies (with drivers) could be provided, a bit like you see at airports, to be booked with the other assistance you need when you book your journey. As well as a route to St Pancras International you also probably need one to the Thameslink platforms and the King Cross tube station.

The nearest equivilent I am familiar with is Gare du Nord to Gare de L'Est in Paris, a similar distance, and equally sketchy signage. Fine if you know it, but if you dont know the area then a nightmare.

Really sorting the route between HS1/Thameslink/Tube and HS2 should have been part of the initial design, not an afterthought

Excellent idea

 

[edwin_m]

A younger person, travelling light on business (say) who does the journey regularly, if not frequently, will soon become familiar with and appreciate the quick and rock-solid dependability of a pedestrian transfer. I find once I've experienced an area, walking distances at subsequent visits are psychologically shrunk in my perception. This can be reinforced by 'space syntax' techniques, straight sightlines, good signage, lighting, sense of safety and security, freedom from traffic risks etc. A bit of shelter en route, even if not continuous, could help make the route more attractive in cases where the weather changes.

Absolutely. I used to visit an office near Holborn quite frequently and on a good day it was quicker to get there from St Pancras by Tube. However it was necessary to allow contingency time when catching a train or before a meeting, whereas walking is much more predictable (and there was nice quiet route via Lambs Conduit Street). The office in question then moved to Aldgate, which is a similar travelling time on the Tube but a bit too far to walk. Because of the need for contingency I had more "dead time" travelling there and back.

 

[Jimini]

Or even better, a Schwebebahn. Personally I always walk via the Cock Tavern on Phoenix Road for a pitstop

Cracking boozer!

 

[Shrop]

When you're done with your Daily Mail paint-by-numbers opinion piece, I'd suggest that you consider that the 'politically correct' classes are most likely to be in agreement with on this matter. The problem lies in political expediency - the measures that address short-distance use of oversized vehicles are things like road pricing and traffic regulations that alienate voters who find themselves inconvenienced by such lofty goals.

I think your opening wording is unnecessarily harsh. Teaching road sense is a good thing, which was sadly lacking and a common form of concern from teachers, the police, and local councillors, whenever I was involved in meetings to discuss dangerous parking and driving outside schools. Similarly, pollution was also a subject of concern, particularly in the context of children being thrust into heavily polluted air every day as soon as they left school premises, due to many parked cars, often with engines running. The value of exercise for children was also noted, by many people other than myself, and I wouldn't say that any of these people were opinionated Daily Mail readers, nor subscribers, nor even sympathised with a lot of what that publication says.

Perhaps you could expand a little on your comments about road pricing and traffic management, it isn't completely clear whether or not you're advocating these things? And are you defending the lack of action on the points about road sense, pollution and exercise? If you think voters would be deterred from voting for measures which improve these things, are you not discrediting that these voters might be able to think for themselves?

 

[Peter Sarf]

For HS1 - HS2 I would start of with better/clearer signage. Personally, when I make that trek I used to walk along the Euston Road but I have learnt the route parallel and to the North of the Euston Road. Particularly attractive as it brings one into the side of St Pancras which os now the centro of St Pancras. Further more it is then easy to Cross St Pancras station to Kings Cross. When it is raining heavily I take the tube or the bus (Eastbound only). The Circle/Metropolitan route has become a less attractive route since the centre of St Pancras and Kings Cross has moved North. And its a dead loss at Euston anyway.

I would say the main justification for improving the route between Euston and St Pancras might be for the benefit of passengers using Thameslink to get to Euston (HS2 or other routes).

However the money to pay for a covered walkway, maglev or cable car could be far better spent on getting the large number of commuters into London Bridge mainline on-wards to the city. That is currently a rather exposed (on a bad weather day) walk across the Thames using London Bridge. In my experience this route is used by far more people than travel on the surface between Euston and St Pancras. So the benefits would be greater there.

 

[BrianW]

Looking back ... I found my post at #46 considering a number of the points since made (reinforced?) by others. I confess to finding it time-consuming myself to read back over comments already made by others
Some posters appear to have looked at the Phoenix Road 'walking route', observing the lime green signs, the Cock Tavern and other 'resting places', trees, people walking with backpacks and cases on wheels, scope for footpath widenings, etc.

I also note thoughts related to distance. I looked up what might be thought a distance that may or may not be thought ok or not: Monument to Bank and found this:

Transfer stats between Monument Station and Bank Station - a Freedom of Information request to Transport for London

1. What is the walking distance in feet between the Platform 1 (District Line) at Monument Station and Platform 5 (Central Line) at Bank Station. 2. What is the mean time taken for passengers to transfer between Platform 1 (District Line) at Monument Station and Platform 5 (Central Line) at...

www.whatdotheyknow.com

and Mancheter Picc to Vic: https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowT...ng-Manchester_Greater_Manchester_England.html

I think I'm seeing solutions looking for a problem.

I'd be happy to see clearer signs/ a few red feet/ coloured line, all without tens of thousands of public realm/ urban syntax/ consultant fees or m/billions of infrastructure costs, and fees!!

And good for personal and public health.

The main 'problem' is unawareness and anxiety esp for first-timers trying to find their way, running late and/or cutting it fine.

 

[6Gman]

Travelling light I'd walk.

If it's raining I'd take the underground.

If I've got a suitcase I'd go to the taxi rank and tell the cheerful cockney cabbie exactly where I want him to take me.

There's a lot of property between Euston and St Pancras and I really struggle to see how a cable car/ monorail/ covered walkway etc could be fitted in.

 

[XAM2175]

I find once I've experienced an area, walking distances at subsequent visits are psychologically shrunk in my perception. This can be reinforced by 'space syntax' techniques, straight sightlines, good signage, lighting, sense of safety and security, freedom from traffic risks etc. A bit of shelter en route, even if not continuous, could help make the route more attractive in cases where the weather changes.

Yes, very true.

Very much agree. Should include classic rail and other public transport mode connections too.

Indeed, the whole 'London CIV' picture could do with a touch-up.

I think your opening wording is unnecessarily harsh. Teaching road sense is a good thing ... pollution was also a subject of concern ... The value of exercise for children was also noted, by many people other than myself, and I wouldn't say that any of these people were opinionated Daily Mail readers, nor subscribers, nor even sympathised with a lot of what that publication says.

In response to "there is a way to deal with that but it isn't politically acceptable at the moment" you posted:
"Ah yes, I keep forgetting that political correctness trumps the value of exercise, the value of teaching road sense, and the value of not wasting environmental resources. The combined value in fact, must all bow down to political correctness. "
This use of 'political correctness' is the Daily Mail talking point I was criticising. You will note in my original post that I said that the 'politically-correct classes' would agree with you that road sense and pollution and exercise are important topics.

Perhaps you could expand a little on your comments about road pricing and traffic management, it isn't completely clear whether or not you're advocating these things? And are you defending the lack of action on the points about road sense, pollution and exercise? If you think voters would be deterred from voting for measures which improve these things, are you not discrediting that these voters might be able to think for themselves?

No, because it's irrelevant to the topic of this thread.

 

[Bald Rick]

I have a sense of déjà vu...

Is Crossrail 2 not going to be a "Euston St-Pancras" station combining the two? Where perhaps this could include some form of walkway that makes use of the station infrastructure?

In the extremely unlikely event of Crossrail 2 happening anytime in the next 20 years... it would be substantially quicker to walk at ground level than do 3 long escalators at each end.

I'm not convinced that the numbers involved would be "vanishingly small", but in the context of £100bn (plus or minus whatever), the cost of providing a dedicated moving walkway for at least some of the route, is also vanishingly small.

Yes, look after the millions and the billions look after themselves. The number of people who would benefit, and the scale of the benefit is, as others have said, rather small compared to the millions it would cost to build.

Less than half a mile"? Or a little more than that?

Less than half a mile. I do St Pancras to Euston regularly. Always under 8 minutes. Have done it platform to platform in less.

Exactly. And this is something that needs to be addressed if we’re to encourage people away from other modes of transport. Providing a bare minimum of passenger service and convenience won’t be enough.

But would it? How many extra passengers would be encouraged to use this route (rather than, say, flying) if there was the provision of, say, a moving walkway compared to a well signed and safe walking route (and three tube lines plus several buses).

There are some places where cable cars are "serious" transport options, such as cities in Colombia, so it shouldn't be written off as a solution. However, there might be a concern with privacy if it overflies residential areas.

Especially Grade II listed residential areas, with (apparently) the finest example of its architecture in existence.

The point is, it is possible to get people to change their habits.

Indeed, as London has demonstrated.

Personally I always walk via the Cock Tavern on Phoenix Road for a pitstop

Brave lad!


Perhaps someone would like to speculate exactly where such a moving walkway could be sited, taking into account the various underground lines, the safeguarded zone for Crossrail 2, the (very) deep basements of the British Library and Francis Crick Institute, the various listed buildings (including Levita House), the school (brand new), social housing, etc etc.

 

[MarkyT]

I'd be happy to see clearer signs/ a few red feet/ coloured line, all without tens of thousands of public realm/ urban syntax/ consultant fees or m/billions of infrastructure costs, and fees!!

And good for personal and public health.

The main 'problem' is unawareness and anxiety esp for first-timers trying to find their way, running late and/or cutting it fine.

Without any improvement whatsoever beyond signage and markings, narrow pavements in a traditional largely residential street arrangement that has been dominated by road vehicles for getting on for a couple of centuries just don't cut it, in my mind, for a major inter-terminal walking route. Urban realm improvements are recognised as being desirable in the area anyway, including a new east side entrance to the Euston station complex to improve E-W permeability, an objective for the larger redevelopment, as the station at the moment is seen as a large 'wall' blocking local surface access across the borough. While I'm not advocating travelators, APMs etc (anymore!), a modest pedestrian improvement of the Phoenix Rd route tying in with the Euston east side entrance proposal seems broadly proportionate to the potential interchange traffic (including HS2 to Thameslink and HS1 Kent domestics as well as Continental services), and there's scope for further improvements in the more distant future, as desired according to changing demand. Generally, I believe pedestrian improvements are desirable LITERALLY EVERYWHERE in our auto-dominated cities.

 

[Shrop]

Less than half a mile.

Even from the new HS2 platforms? Are you sure about that?

I do St Pancras to Euston regularly. Always under 8 minutes. Have done it platform to platform in less.

Bully for you, so can I but not when I have my wife with me, and neither can a great many others. As I've said before, it's easy when you know the way, but not all travellers do, many have suitcases, and many would be simply unable to walk this in 8 minutes even if they knew the way. This thread is not targeted at you or others like you, unless you wish to help.

 

[Ken H]

Even from the new HS2 platforms? Are you sure about that?

Bully for you, so can I but not when I have my wife with me, and neither can a great many others. As I've said before, it's easy when you know the way, but not all travellers do, many have suitcases, and many would be simply unable to walk this in 8 minutes even if they knew the way. This thread is not targeted at you or others like you, unless you wish to help.

Having luggage trolleys you can take between the stations would help. Maybe ones that walkers can lean on. (Missus finds supermarket trolleys help when her hip gives her gyp.) Pay with credit card and take authorisation for a lump of cash in case the trolley goes missing.

 

[Mikey C]

Even from the new HS2 platforms? Are you sure about that?

Bully for you, so can I but not when I have my wife with me, and neither can a great many others. As I've said before, it's easy when you know the way, but not all travellers do, many have suitcases, and many would be simply unable to walk this in 8 minutes even if they knew the way. This thread is not targeted at you or others like you, unless you wish to help.

Then you can take the tube to do it, if you're elderly/infirm or have heavy luggage.

Especially as by the time HS2 opens, there'll be direct access to the Circle Line platforms at Euston Square from the mainline station, and indeed they'll be at the HS2 end of Euston station