HS2 Compulsory Reservations

[Bletchleyite]

I'm more thinking accidental.

A few by accident won't be significant, just as if the odd person goes Euston-MKC or Manchester-Bolton on a pick up/set down only train that small volume of people causes no practical issue in the way it would if the train was crowded out with commuters.

 

[miami]

Looking forward to the headlines while the empty trains whizz around and the older WCML line is rammed with people who want to go home now rather than waiting 4 hours

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking forward to the headlines while the empty trains whizz around and the older WCML line is rammed with people who want to go home now rather than waiting 4 hours

Surely if they're empty there isn't a problem, they'll grab a reservation and board? The issue isn't going to be 3tph at 400m from London to Birmingham, that's over a doubling of what runs now - most of those won't even fill, the service rarely does now*, and when it does it's often with MKC commuters who aren't applicable to HS2 as it doesn't stop there. The issue is going to be shorter Manchesters and the likes.

* You might see "sold out" on trains where they've either been cack-handed with the quotas or kept seats back for walk ups, but I've very rarely had to stand on an Avanti train - only time you really did was Friday evenings before the peak restrictions were lifted.

 

[miami]

So no need to stop flexible fares then?

Of course I assume things like break of journey will also be destroyed. Want to go Monday Glasgow->London, Tuesday London->Birmingham, Tuesday night Birmingham->Crewe, Wednesday night Crewe->Carlise. Or maybe change your plans on Tuesday morning and skip Birmingham and just go straight to Crewe.

Or you could just drive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course I assume things like break of journey will also be destroyed. Want to go Monday Glasgow->London, Tuesday London->Birmingham, Tuesday night Birmingham->Crewe, Wednesday night Crewe->Carlise.

Much easier to do that with single-fare-priced Advances than it is with classic return fares where the single is priced 10p less than the return. Just book what you plan to do as singles with no faffing about trying to work out the best value of combined returns.

It is absolutely an issue for spontanaety though, and there the car wins.

The biggest thing I have an issue with is penalising people for taking a shorter journey than booked on the booked train, and refusing people permission to leave a station between booked trains on a through ticket. That's just silly and the UK (indeed, mostly just Northern) seems alone in doing that. Charges for changing Advances are also sly - nobody's doing any admin - as is keeping the money if you change to a cheaper service and being unable to change the origin/destination. While Advances were refundable over COVID I used them a fair bit as there were more options to "flex" them a bit.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

One of the things that has been cited that might mean they can't do that is the evacuation plan for the long tunnel which has been said before not to be planned around crush loads and how long they would take to get out. So that may be a problem. But I've not heard an official statement on that

If that is the reason, then an obvious response is that every day thousands of trains in the UK (including all the deep tube trains in London) go through tunnels in which evacuation is essentially impossible no matter how well or badly loaded the train is, because until recently it was quite normal to build tunnels without any evacuation space to the side of the train. Oddly, that almost never seems to cause a problem.

 

[robspaceman]

If that is the reason, then an obvious response is that every day thousands of trains in the UK (including all the deep tube trains in London) go through tunnels in which evacuation is essentially impossible no matter how well or badly loaded the train is, because until recently it was quite normal to build tunnels without any evacuation space to the side of the train. Oddly, that almost never seems to cause a problem.

Tube trains have emergency exits at each end via the cabs - no need to exit to the side

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Indeed, if Eurostar's close-to-departure pricing was more reasonable I'd probably do several day trips a year to Paris/Brussels, as a result of their policy I do none.

Much as I deplore Eurostar's close-to-departure pricing, I would imagine those high prices are there because capacity is so low relative to potential demand, with only one tph to Paris plus a few trains a day to other destinations, and difficulties running many more trains because of capacity/border checks at St Pancras. Fees to use the Channel tunnel may also play a part. The ECML, where turn-up-and-go prices also tend to be very high is also in a similar situation: Those prices make business sense because trains are already full even with those prices.

I doubt either problem will be an issue on HS2, where I'd anticipate capacity to be so high that it will make no business sense to put people off by charging high prices.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt either problem will be an issue on HS2, where I'd anticipate capacity to be so high that it will make no business sense to put people off by charging high prices.

True of Birmingham, but if Manchester is going to go down to 3 x 200m instead of 3 x 265m (potentially, some are 9s) then that's going to be rather pricey as it's a capacity drop. By and large Avanti's demand and capacity are quite well matched at the moment, with standing comparatively rare, so capacity cuts won't be a good thing. Though there are ways to work around this to some extent, largely involving portion working.

(It will be interesting to see if the addition of the third Newcastle train next December results in ECML prices being any lower in real terms)

You may be right about Eurostar despite the long trains - looking at Saturday pretty much the whole morning is sold out in Standard.

 

[Bikeman78]

If that is the reason, then an obvious response is that every day thousands of trains in the UK (including all the deep tube trains in London) go through tunnels in which evacuation is essentially impossible no matter how well or badly loaded the train is, because until recently it was quite normal to build tunnels without any evacuation space to the side of the train. Oddly, that almost never seems to cause a problem.

You make a good point. I have been on crush loaded IETs through the Severn tunnel. I expect the HS2 tunnels will have walkways and ventilation systems to try and move smoke away from passengers evacuating from a train. The Severn tunnel has none of that. It's dark and damp, and the only way out is to walk along the track. It's a two mile walk from the middle.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Having to build in contingency time to ensure you arrive at your departure station in time to catch the one train your ticket is valid on will more than wipe out any time gained by taking the faster HS2 train.

I hate the stress that Advance tickets impose so I hardly ever use them.

 

[renegademaster]

Even with very good throughput you are still going to have times that people will need to stand. Like a few trains before being cancelled, or Aston Villa Vs a London Team where you could have 5000 extra people trying to get from London to Birmingham in the space of a few hours.

 

[SynthD]

I suppose if there was a simple app that you open at the station and tick 'reserve seat on next train' that should work. Probably bearable.

I understood TGV and the like was reservation only due to safety and not allowing standing at very high speeds, as such I would expect HS2 services to be the same. ORR will never let you run full and wedged services at 200mph, not going to happen

It feels like we already know the answers (quoted), but don’t want to change habits and enjoy the chance to complain.

A journey from Manchester/north to Birmingham won’t go through any major tunnels? If so, those journeys could take standing passengers in theory. But I don’t think they will, as it will be inconsistent across the brand, and will be judged as anti northern.

 

[renegademaster]

You make a good point. I have been on crush loaded IETs through the Severn tunnel. I expect the HS2 tunnels will have walkways and ventilation systems to try and move smoke away from passengers evacuating from a train. The Severn tunnel has none of that. It's dark and damp, and the only way out is to walk along the track. It's a two mile walk from the middle.

I expect ORR would use grandfather rights to excuse present tunnel operations if that's the line they will take. Like how the thousands of km of preexisting third rail is fine but extended its looked harshly upon

 

[stuu]

I have seen a consultant's report into ticketing. One suggestion was for it all to be on an app which would check you in automatically based on location once you arrived in the station and reserve a seat on the next available train, if you had an anytime ticket.

There were other suggestions, but the basic premise was that it would be all-reserved with no standing allowed

 

[Bletchleyite]

I expect ORR would use grandfather rights to excuse present tunnel operations if that's the line they will take. Like how the thousands of km of preexisting third rail is fine but extended its looked harshly upon

I don't think there's a generalised issue with standing in tunnels, it's just specifically how the evacuation provisions were calculated for these ones.

TGV is sort of similar - the trains (e.g. suspension) aren't designed for large numbers of standees as it wasn't anticipated that that would be the operational model, though I don't know how it works with the TER-GV services because those aren't all reserved.

 

[sh24]

Most passengers like the security of having a confirmed seat reservation. Many passengers also like some flexibility in their travel plans. Hopefully HS2 will reflect that.

My fear is that financial pressure driven by the huge cost over-runs will focus on a full blown airline style yield maximisation model.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My fear is that financial pressure driven by the huge cost over-runs will focus on a full blown airline style yield maximisation model.

Like LNER, you mean? I don't doubt that when that rolls out more widely they'll do stuff like remove the safeguards and potentially even suggest why the Anytime fare should either be removed or increased to four figures to give them more scope to increase the fare when busy...

(Airlines do or did technically have maximum fares - the IATA interavailable single - but it's swingeingly expensive - it makes Avanti's ridiculous London-Manchester Anytimes look cheap)

But yes, I have a massive fear that they'll stick with the 3x200m/hour Manchester service and just price it to the absolute hilt to maximise income rather than finding a way to up the capacity, be that building some 400m classic line platforms or playing with portion working to get up to 4 or 5 an hour at busy times of day.

Birmingham perhaps less so, though, as 3 x 400m is a huge amount of capacity, and there's no practical way of them pricing Chiltern up to the same extent because even if they did it with the through tickets you could just string together a split out of lower priced day returns (and I believe there's legal precedent against BR from the 1980s/90s that means splits can't be banned, unlike in the Republic of Ireland where they actually are banned). Also Birmingham-London is short enough that most people would consider driving if the train was too costly, so there's solid competition - Edinburgh/Newcastle are a bit different because it's a bit far for most to drive. Yes, driving to London is grim, but driving to somewhere like Luton Airport Parkway or an outlying Tube station is fine.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

True of Birmingham, but if Manchester is going to go down to 3 x 200m instead of 3 x 265m (potentially, some are 9s) then that's going to be rather pricey as it's a capacity drop. By and large Avanti's demand and capacity are quite well matched at the moment, with standing comparatively rare, so capacity cuts won't be a good thing. Though there are ways to work around this to some extent, largely involving portion working.

Yes I take the point about Manchester. You'd like to think capacity would go up because, besides the three HS2 London-Manchester trains, there will presumably be one or two slower direct WCML trains providing competition (plus the proposed extension of the LNWR London-Crewe train). But guess the issue is, since nothing is currently proposed to be built heading into Manchester, there's unlikely to be much scope for many more trains than presently run at the Manchester end. And as soon as Handsacre is built, you'll also presumably have fast Birmingham Curzon St->Trent Valley->Manchester trains competing for paths too.

London-Birmingham should be a different story: You have a brand new HS2 with capacity for 18tph between London and Birmingham Interchange, but nothing like that many trains actually going to run on it in the absence of Phase 2 being built, so you can theoretically basically run as many trains as you want between London and Birmingham, even if the current intention is to only run 3tph.

 

[Taunton]

You make a good point. I have been on crush loaded IETs through the Severn tunnel. I expect the HS2 tunnels will have walkways and ventilation systems to try and move smoke away from passengers evacuating from a train. The Severn tunnel has none of that. It's dark and damp, and the only way out is to walk along the track. It's a two mile walk from the middle.

It's an interesting comparison, because there were always special provisions for the Severn Tunnel, including its own permanent Tunnel Rescue Train, pleasantly unused for 100 years until the collision in there in 1991, when both the accident cause and the recovery process were a complete fiasco.

I presume the HS2 tunnels are provided with just the same emergency facilities as the Crossrail tunnels, which are new tunnels used by new trains on which the very substantial uncontrolled standing capacity to crush load is touted as some form of advantage over seated carriages.

 

[thedbdiboy]

I have seen a consultant's report into ticketing. One suggestion was for it all to be on an app which would check you in automatically based on location once you arrived in the station and reserve a seat on the next available train, if you had an anytime ticket.

There were other suggestions, but the basic premise was that it would be all-reserved with no standing allowed

Part of the problem with the 'what-iffery' is that people apply 2024 sensibilities to something that is a good few years away from going live. There's a big difference between making bookings today and what will be technologically available when it starts. It is possible to have a reservable walk-up railway - you're checked in on arrival at the platform, directed to a seat, the train knows you're on it, you're ticket is electronically clipped. And 'old people' will be from the smartphone generation.

 

[GoneSouth]

The issue isn't CR, the issue is the idea that it's perfectly acceptable to fleece people who either wish to book nearer the time of travel or who wish to change their booked journey on the day.

Or people who just don’t have a choice and have to travel at short notice. They get completely fleeced too.

I would buy an EV in a heartbeat if I were able to drive one. No more gauging every penny out of me by XC, no more being let down by nobody wanting to work on railways at weekends. No more spending the price of a small car for a day trip by train for the family, no more overcrowding, no more standing, no more football supporters shouting insane songs about Plymouth being the greatest team on earth (they’re not btw ), no more Sundays not being able to be where I need to be before 3pm (because trains don’t do Sunday mornings apparently), no more 25quid taxi fares to travel the 4 miles to the station

 

[Kite159]

I have seen a consultant's report into ticketing. One suggestion was for it all to be on an app which would check you in automatically based on location once you arrived in the station and reserve a seat on the next available train, if you had an anytime ticket.

There were other suggestions, but the basic premise was that it would be all-reserved with no standing allowed

Oh great, another app to have to download in order to use the trains.

Only for the App to say "sorry, the next train which available reservations is in 3 hours time" as business travellers on season tickets have made multiple reservations around the time they expect a meeting to have finished

 

[weeklycommuter]

I have seen a consultant's report into ticketing. One suggestion was for it all to be on an app which would check you in automatically based on location once you arrived in the station and reserve a seat on the next available train, if you had an anytime ticket.
There were other suggestions, but the basic premise was that it would be all-reserved with no standing allowed

I would take no notice whatsoever of any such reports. My concern is that money is being wasted on asking consultants to make suggestions now about a train service with a start date at least ten years in the future. If this is their response I would not ask for their views on anything to do with running train services.

 

[stuu]

Oh great, another app to have to download in order to use the trains.

Only for the App to say "sorry, the next train which available reservations is in 3 hours time" as business travellers on season tickets have made multiple reservations around the time they expect a meeting to have finished

The idea was that anyone who hadn't checked in x minutes prior to departure wouldn't have a reservation - reservations would be released to anyone waiting for them

 

[renegademaster]

The idea was that anyone who hadn't checked in x minutes prior to departure wouldn't have a reservation - reservations would be released to anyone waiting for them

Ugh, more "let's copy the bits everyone doesn't like about easyJet" stuff, but probably without easyJet prices

 

[A S Leib]

Oh great, another app to have to download in order to use the trains.

Given other signs of integration (e.g. automatic ticket acceptance between OLR TOCs in case of disruption from Sunday), I'd hope that it would ultimately end up with fewer total apps available. My preference would be LNER's app as the model, as I know Avanti's website lets you choose from a seat map but the app doesn't, and I don't think TPE, GWR or ScotRail let you choose at all beyond window / aisle and airline / table.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Part of the problem with the 'what-iffery' is that people apply 2024 sensibilities to something that is a good few years away from going live. There's a big difference between making bookings today and what will be technologically available when it starts. It is possible to have a reservable walk-up railway - you're checked in on arrival at the platform, directed to a seat, the train knows you're on it, you're ticket is electronically clipped. And 'old people' will be from the smartphone generation.

I don't want to be directed to a seat by an app. I want to get on the train and choose once I'm inside the carriage which seat I'd like to sit on.

 

[Route115?]

Its interesting that in Japan there are unreserved seats on certainly most Shinkansen trains (I'm not sure about the fastest Nozomi trains) - although not in their equivilent of first class.

I supect that HS2 is comparing itself to airlines where in generally one books ahead. This is not true for many journeys including some on high speed trains. Booking ahead for Reading to Paddington doesn't make sense.

I wonder what proportion of the population don't have a smart phone (and mean a smart phone - having a simple mobile phone doesn't count). It may be quite high for elderly people and they are not cheap. Not every elderly person will find downloading an App, using it on the move and crucually deleting it once used (coping with dozens of apps is not fun, you need regular clear outs) easy . The trouble with compulsory reservations is that you have to change them if your connection is delayed. One of the reason that stations like Euston are overcrowded is that passengers on advance tickets tend to arrive very early - if missing a train will cost you an additional £100 it makes sense to arrive 30 minutes early. This leads to an interesting issue that the time saving from faster travelling could be offset by having to arrive early at ones starting point, although in truth it won't affect people already travelling on advanced tickets, probably a high proportion of longer distance travellers.

Of course you could install lots of machines at stations to deal with this, as SNCF used to - but make sure that you have staff floating around to deal with those looking bemused. (Will they survive the first round of cuts?)

You could treat those with cognitive difficulties using a smart phone the same way as those confined to wheelchairs and legislate the additional care must be provided. The problem is that disability legislation is not really geared for the frail who are not wheelchair users or blind, etc and one wonders of similar legislation would similarly be directly at a small group of cognitively disabled people rather than the larger technophobe group. (I'm thinking of my 90 year old mother who can't understand the BBC i-player.)

I wonder if there is a parrallel with my time at a TOC 25 years ago where the management didn't grasp that not everyone drove and wanted to build everything around parkway stations. This attitude is fortunately reducing (many youngsters don't drive), but instead we have an attitide of everyone has a smart phone - although in this case the problem lies at the other end of the population spectrum.

 

[renegademaster]

You could treat those with cognitive difficulties using a smart phone the same way as those confined to wheelchairs and legislate the additional care must be provided. T

And where are you going to find all those extra accessibility staff with a government that really doesn't like to spend money on hiring new staff?
Or the maintenance staff for reservation machines