HS2 Compulsory Reservations

[Krokodil]

Well no - if I thought I was likely to be in my reserved seat with unreserved people's bums in my face and blocking my way to the doors/loo and any hope of the trolley then I will just drive

Freeing up the seat for one of the standing passengers. Out of curiosity, given that only Eurostar and Caledonian Sleeper offer a guarantee of avoiding someone's backside in your face, do you also avoid using the existing intercity train operators just in case of overcrowding following disruption? Remember that HS2 should offer a drastic capacity increase on Birmingham services (and Manchester too, once the government get their act together) so trains are much less likely to be overcrowded than Avanti's existing services.

and even having a 'I'm popping to the loo/shop' button to assuage the worries?

This is more technological overreach. I am a grown adult, I should not need to tell an app that I want to go to the bog just so that it doesn't reserve my seat from underneath me. A simple "would you mind watching my bag?" to a neighbouring passenger should be enough.

It could even let you hit 'need the loo' and tell you which way to go to find a working/free one!

Illuminated signs at the end of the saloon have been normal since... HSTs, I think.

 

[Indigo Soup]

So the people without cars are second class citizens?

Unfortunately yes. That's been made pretty clear over the last thirty or forty years.

A simple "would you mind watching my bag?" to a neighbouring passenger should be enough.

In a civilised society, leaving one's bag in the luggage rack or one one's seat ought to be enough!

Illuminated signs at the end of the saloon have been normal since... HSTs, I think.

Of course, HSTs were also among the last trains where you could reliably go in either direction and reach at least one, normally two, toilets before entering another passenger saloon. Veering off topic here, but I'm not sure what led to the reduction in toilet provision; did diets change markedly around 1980?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, HSTs were also among the last trains where you could reliably go in either direction and reach at least one, normally two, toilets before entering another passenger saloon. Veering off topic here, but I'm not sure what led to the reduction in toilet provision; did diets change markedly around 1980?

Cost and complexity of accessible/vacuum retention toilets and the amount of space they take up compared to the traditional tiny boxes.

 

[Indigo Soup]

Cost and complexity of accessible/vacuum retention toilets and the amount of space they take up compared to the traditional tiny boxes.

AFAIK the issue predates the (comparatively) enormous accessible toilets on modern stock, and in any case that would only account for a couple of vehicles in a train. The Mark 3 sleepers managed to fit two toilets with retention tanks, but they may have had comparatively small tanks compared to day stock.

 

[Krokodil]

Veering off topic here, but I'm not sure what led to the reduction in toilet provision; did diets change markedly around 1980?

Regional trains always had fewer toilets, a class 108 (in either two or three car formation) had exactly the same number of toilets as the equivalent 197 today. Inner suburban EMUs often had none, just as they generally do today. Intercity stock has seen a reduction which I'd mostly attribute to the increased space required (Voyagers in particular being overprovisioned with universal toilets). Last time I travelled on a GWR 80x I found provision to be decent - toilets are about the one good feature they have.

 

[Meerkat]

But then the trade off is that you may not be able to travel at all. If we're serious about people giving up cars then that isn't an acceptable situation, whereas if we see rail as an adjunct to the car (because if it's booked up you can drive) it is.

But you dont attract people by offering them a rubbish product - one experience on an overcrowded train will put them off such that they arent filling seats on uncrowded trains.

Illuminated signs at the end of the saloon have been normal since... HSTs, I think.

And when that sign says 'in use' or 'out of order'?
Though you have reminded me that the 720s do have toilet status on the overhead screens that show which coaches are busy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But you dont attract people by offering them a rubbish product - one experience on an overcrowded train will put them off such that they arent filling seats on uncrowded trains.

The number of people who travel on overcrowded trains probably suggests otherwise. Indeed, seeing "sold out" all day when they need to travel is more likely to put them off, as they'll find an alternative and stick to it going forward.

 

[GoneSouth]

So the people without cars are second class citizens?

Very much so.

Try accessing any of the increasing number of out of town retail parks, try accessing business parks without any public transport provision, thus reducing employment opportunities, , heck even the supposedly environmentally savvy Dale Vince is whacking up a new sports stadium on the M5 for Forest Green Rovers, not a lot of rail or bus services near that.

Why should the rail industry be any different with their rail isn’t really your first choice attitude… if there’s a problem you can always drive etc…

I’d like the job of minister for closing roads, a kind of Beeching for the motorists

 

[Krokodil]

But you dont attract people by offering them a rubbish product - one experience on an overcrowded train will put them off such that they arent filling seats on uncrowded trains

Picture this: it's Friday afternoon, everyone is going home for the weekend. There's some minor disruption with several trains cancelled but the line has now reopened. Your train was one of the ones cancelled so you need to rebook on a later one. Except that they're fully booked for several hours, possibly for the rest of the day. Is being stranded at a draughty station not going to put people off from travelling?

And when that sign says 'in use' or 'out of order'?
Though you have reminded me that the 720s do have toilet status on the overhead screens that show which coaches are busy.

Yes, that's increasingly common these days. On a well designed PIS (again I'm looking at the systems used on the Rhatische Bahn, not the rubbish installed on 197s) you can see clearly everything you need to see at a glance, no need to download a specific app to board a train and open it just to book your slot on the bog.

Train travel should be carefree, particularly on a 45 minute journey to Birmingham. Turn up, swipe your contactless card and just board whatever train is in the platform. Need to go to the toilet? Just say "excuse me" to the person in the aisle seat and go.

If you want to be guaranteed an aisle free of standees, then cough up and pay for 1st class. That's what premium services are for.

 

[Meerkat]

The number of people who travel on overcrowded trains probably suggests otherwise. Indeed, seeing "sold out" all day when they need to travel is more likely to put them off, as they'll find an alternative and stick to it going forward.

HS2 isnt going to be XC though - if anything it will have too much capacity almost all the time.

Train travel should be carefree, particularly on a 45 minute journey to Birmingham. Turn up, swipe your contactless card and just board whatever train is in the platform.

Because there should be enough capacity. No reason the reservations can't be last minute when you check the train times. You would be brave to swipe a contactless card for an intercity journey without being sure what you will get charged!!

If you want to be guaranteed an aisle free of standees, then cough up and pay for 1st class.

But the people who insist on standees tend to also insist on declassifying 1st class. If you want guaranteed turn up and go then you pay up for it

Picture this: it's Friday afternoon, everyone is going home for the weekend. There's some minor disruption with several trains cancelled but the line has now reopened. Your train was one of the ones cancelled so you need to rebook on a later one. Except that they're fully booked for several hours, possibly for the rest of the day. Is being stranded at a draughty station not going to put people off from travelling?

Firstly disruption is a special case, and secondly it will be much easier to deal with if the cancelled trains werent overbooked in the first place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

HS2 isnt going to be XC though - if anything it will have too much capacity almost all the time.

This is true of Birmingham 400m services. It's a bit so-so for Liverpool which would go from one 265m and one 180m to two 200m, which is about the same.

It's not true of Glasgow or Manchester which are likely, at 200m, to see a capacity reduction. A capacity reduction with a vastly improved service and the "sparks effect" is precisely what destroyed XC.

 

[HSTEd]

I very much doubt that HS2 evacuation plans have been prepared for anything other than crush loading.
Indeed the train specification details crush loaded performance!

If they had decided to set a limit on passengers for evacuation purposes, simply having notionally compulsory reservations would definitely not be enough to get past the safety regulator as a SFAIRP risk management strategy

(So far as is reasonably practicable).

They would need systems to ensure there are never more than the regular loading of passengers aboard, and implement these to ensure no such train can enter HS2 from the classic railway.
It's obviously silly.

I think HS2 primarily wants compulsory reservations because it fits with their vision of a high price, "high quality" railway that will skim off the valuable passengers from the classic railway.
The same reason they wanted to rewrite the TSIs to suit them to accelerate boarding at Old Oak Common, then ordered trains with only a single door per vehicle (per side). Or ordered trains with 200m sets and catering facilities to shuttle back and forth from Birmingham to London all day.

EDIT:
Edited to be less strident.

 

[Krokodil]

You would be brave to swipe a contactless card for an intercity journey without being sure what you will get charged!!

At 45 minutes to Birmingham it's rather stretching the traditional definition of Intercity. You can make any journey in the Netherlands using a contactless card, even journeys on Intercity trains, and fares are reasonable.

Firstly disruption is a special case

But you said:

one experience on an overcrowded train will put them off

Which sounds like an argument for a blanket "no overloading in any circumstances".

It's a bit so-so for Liverpool which would go from one 265m and one 180m to two 200m, which is about the same.

But the 180m train is new so for many years it was just the 265m one. The Pendos aren't too efficient space-wise either.

It's not true of Glasgow or Manchester which are likely, at 200m, to see a capacity reduction. A capacity reduction with a vastly improved service and the "sparks effect" is precisely what destroyed XC.

Wasn't Glasgow supposed to get 2tph? Though that is on the basis of the full route opening. Re: Manchester, I'm sure that you know my views on Sunak's hatchet job.

 

[A S Leib]

At 45 minutes to Birmingham it's rather stretching the traditional definition of Intercity. You can make any journey in the Netherlands using a contactless card, even journeys on Intercity trains, and fares are reasonable.

Anytime Avanti returns from Birmingham to Euston are £189; anytime open returns from Exeter to Waterloo via Honiton, which is already possible with contactless (Tap2Go) is £179.

 

[renegademaster]

with unreserved people's bums in my face and blocking my way to the doors/loo and any hope of the trollely then I will just drive.

But if the train keeps being packed on that route, can't be too many people making that decision.

 

[Krokodil]

Anytime Avanti returns from Birmingham to Euston are £189; anytime open returns from Exeter to Waterloo via Honiton, which is already possible with contactless (Tap2Go) is £179.

There is little chance that the extortionate Anytime fares will stay once capacity has increased dramatically. There will be many empty seats to fill.

For context of how ridiculous British fares have become, Amsterdam to Groningen is roughly the same distance as London to Birmingham. Less than €30 single.

 

[A S Leib]

There is little chance that the extortionate Anytime fares will stay once capacity has increased dramatically. There will be many empty seats to fill.

For context of how ridiculous British fares have become, Amsterdam to Groningen is roughly the same distance as London to Birmingham. Less than €30 single.

Hopefully not for Birmingham, although given that petrol for London to Glasgow's ~£60 each way, I'd be surprised if the £178 off-peak return (which I think is valid on all except the first train of the day each way if not breaking journeys overnight) for that or similar southeast England – Scotland fares change much.

 

[m_m]

Well no - if I thought I was likely to be in my reserved seat with unreserved people's bums in my face and blocking my way to the doors/loo and any hope of the trolley then I will just drive. Its bad enough on short distance commuter trains, unacceptable on intercity

Only if the bag has a sweaty bottom IIRC (or was that another train type?).
You would hope that if you sat in the seat before/whilst the train left your departure station then there would be a long delay before it assumed you had moved seat/gone to the loo. Would there be a downside of an app based reservation system letting you change your seat reservation whilst on the train (to get away from a smelly/large/loud person or to get a window for example), and even having a 'I'm popping to the loo/shop' button to assuage the worries? It could even let you hit 'need the loo' and tell you which way to go to find a working/free one!

Not a bum! Whatever will we do?



I don't think one passenger's preference to not see a bum outweighs say, the need for someone to travel full stop. But however you look at it, the problem with our railway is capacity. On some routes (cross country and emr) trains are way too short. On others too infrequent. Fixing that is the answer as it will ease overcrowding for everyone and all these problems would fade away without bizarre ticket restrictions, seat reservations and wierd apps. Hopefully hs2 will help with this in some ways and on some routes.

Compulsory reservations also massively underuse the capacity available. I often get emr trains between derby and London. I get on and the train is packed standing. Everyone empties out at Leicester and I sit down, along with many others. If it was mandatory reservations I'd simply never ever get to Leicester. Then, that same train would do the bulk of the rest of the journey with loads of empty seats. I'd be stuck at home. Pretty daft.

I any case, all of the above would be sorted out to a large extent if the emr trains had been ordered with lots more carriages. But the country is run on a spreadsheet by people who are removed from reality, so the HSTs were replaced by trains half the capacity. Forgive me for not trusting that HS2 won't be similarly underfunded when it comes to trains.

 

[LogicalTrainBo]

If it's compulsory reservation, then make it easy to make one - i.e when you tap your bank card it spits out a reservation for you (and people who have specific preferences can reserve from TVMs or online) BUT also have 3 or more carriages which are still unreserved - allowing for people who don't want to reserve a seat or missed a train.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

BUT also have 3 or more carriages which are still unreserved - allowing for people who don't want to reserve a seat or missed a train.

That isn’t reservation compulsory