Vanishingly few people who travel long distance won't have a smartphone. You can get a perfectly adequate one for less than I would expect a return ticket on HS2 to cost, certainly less than £100. The idea that the elderly don't is generally nonsense, my parents and parents in law are all in their mid 70s and have smartphones and their friends and others I know of that age do too.
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HS2 Compulsory Reservations
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WideRanger
Member
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There's been a lot of comparison to the TGV on here. I think a better comparison (given the much higher planned frequencies) would be the Japanese Shinkansen.
On the fastest or longest routes (and therefore the ones with the highest chance of getting the loadings messed up), many of the trains (16 carriages) are reservation compulsory, or most carriages reserved seats only with one or two unreserved carriages. An essential difference with the way it is done in the UK is that if you are travelling without a reservation, you can only travel in the unreserved carriages - you can't just go to 'find an empty seat'. So there is a very real risk that you will be travelling in very unpleasant levels of loading. As a result of that, unless it is impossible (or, in many cases you are a foreigner who is struggling with the system) nobody travels without a reservation (which cost negligible amounts of money on top of the price of the travel ticket).
At all of the stations, there are machines where you can book a reservation a few minutes before your train leaves your station - it's real time. But increasingly JR is encouraging people to book their reservations on a dedicated app (which is also real time). As a result, very large numbers of people do book their reservation in the 10 minutes before getting on the train (and there is no chance of the seat being occupied, because non-reserved people are not allowed in the reserved carriages, even if they seem to be empty and the non-reserved carriages are heaving).
On the Tokaido Shinkansen (the busiest, by a long way) there are some slower trains which are mostly non-reserved (with reserved carriages ironically being mostly used for people on discounted tourist tickets). Apart from the absolutely peak travel times (a couple of times a year when, frankly everyone expects things to be something of a zoo), these trains are generally pretty empty - the overcapacity coming from the fact that they probably have demand to fill 6 carriages, but have decided that they want a uniform fleet of 16 carriages for maximum flexibility.
So in the case of Japan, the (nearly) all compulsory reservations doesn't really create any problems, even for the sort of people who would generally want a flexible ticket in the UK. Because you simply turn up to the station and book your reservation. And if there is no room, you get on the next one 10 minutes later. And if there is no room on that, and you really need to get moving, you get on a slower one where there is loads of space.
I rarely see seats empty because people have not turned up for their reservation. Because there isn't really much of an incentive to book on a train 'just in case'.
The crucial thing that makes this all work is that the fares are basically the same for any journey pair on the Shinkansen, whatever train you take (there is a slight difference according to the speed of the train, but it is a rounding error). The thing that constrains capacity on the busiest trains is that there are no more seats, so you simply can't travel on them. There are no peak fares. And the price is the same whether you buy the tickets 5 minutes before boarding or a month before boarding (unless you have bought a tourist ticket, which are not really a normal retail experience, given that you can't buy them at the station).
On the fastest or longest routes (and therefore the ones with the highest chance of getting the loadings messed up), many of the trains (16 carriages) are reservation compulsory, or most carriages reserved seats only with one or two unreserved carriages. An essential difference with the way it is done in the UK is that if you are travelling without a reservation, you can only travel in the unreserved carriages - you can't just go to 'find an empty seat'. So there is a very real risk that you will be travelling in very unpleasant levels of loading. As a result of that, unless it is impossible (or, in many cases you are a foreigner who is struggling with the system) nobody travels without a reservation (which cost negligible amounts of money on top of the price of the travel ticket).
At all of the stations, there are machines where you can book a reservation a few minutes before your train leaves your station - it's real time. But increasingly JR is encouraging people to book their reservations on a dedicated app (which is also real time). As a result, very large numbers of people do book their reservation in the 10 minutes before getting on the train (and there is no chance of the seat being occupied, because non-reserved people are not allowed in the reserved carriages, even if they seem to be empty and the non-reserved carriages are heaving).
On the Tokaido Shinkansen (the busiest, by a long way) there are some slower trains which are mostly non-reserved (with reserved carriages ironically being mostly used for people on discounted tourist tickets). Apart from the absolutely peak travel times (a couple of times a year when, frankly everyone expects things to be something of a zoo), these trains are generally pretty empty - the overcapacity coming from the fact that they probably have demand to fill 6 carriages, but have decided that they want a uniform fleet of 16 carriages for maximum flexibility.
So in the case of Japan, the (nearly) all compulsory reservations doesn't really create any problems, even for the sort of people who would generally want a flexible ticket in the UK. Because you simply turn up to the station and book your reservation. And if there is no room, you get on the next one 10 minutes later. And if there is no room on that, and you really need to get moving, you get on a slower one where there is loads of space.
I rarely see seats empty because people have not turned up for their reservation. Because there isn't really much of an incentive to book on a train 'just in case'.
The crucial thing that makes this all work is that the fares are basically the same for any journey pair on the Shinkansen, whatever train you take (there is a slight difference according to the speed of the train, but it is a rounding error). The thing that constrains capacity on the busiest trains is that there are no more seats, so you simply can't travel on them. There are no peak fares. And the price is the same whether you buy the tickets 5 minutes before boarding or a month before boarding (unless you have bought a tourist ticket, which are not really a normal retail experience, given that you can't buy them at the station).
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
I think the problem with a compulsory reservation is you either get no choice where you want to sit, or if the app gives you a choice, you have to make that choice based solely on a map of the train but possibly without knowing which carriage is going to be most convenient for where you want to get on/off (super-important if we do end up with 400m trains), and without having seen the carriage or the people on it. That's particularly important given the high level of low-level anti-social behaviour on UK trains these days (things like people playing mobile phone music out loud) which can easily mean that the seat the reservation system has given you becomes unpleasant so you want to sit somewhere else.
Given how few on-board ticket checks there are on avanti, it seems very unlikely there will be any attempts to force people to sit in a given seat, despite the fantasies of the micromanagers.
People will sit wherever they want. If they sit in someone elses reservation then it will be either ignored or dealt with, just like someone on a flexible ticket does today.
People will sit wherever they want. If they sit in someone elses reservation then it will be either ignored or dealt with, just like someone on a flexible ticket does today.
PyrahnaRanger
Member
I would buy an EV in a heartbeat if I were able to drive one. No more gauging every penny out of me by XC, no more being let down by nobody wanting to work on railways at weekends. No more spending the price of a small car for a day trip by train for the family, no more overcrowding, no more standing, no more football supporters shouting insane songs about Plymouth being the greatest team on earth (they’re not btw), no more Sundays not being able to be where I need to be before 3pm (because trains don’t do Sunday mornings apparently), no more 25quid taxi fares to travel the 4 miles to the station
Whilst I totally agree with the sentiment, given there levels some charging stations are sellling their electrons for, you’d be better off with a decent diesel car. We did a trip to Reading and back a few weeks ago, and the fuel cost was about 1/3 of what one ticket was, and there were two of us travelling. I acknowledge there are other costs on top of that for insurance, wear and tear, tyres, servicing etc, but I have to pay all of those anyways as it’s eight miles to the nearest town, and no public transport these days…
It’s easy to say “I should be allowed to choose to stand” but what about those who have got a reservation and a seat? Being sat on a train full of standing passengers is pretty miserable, if not stressful, and a severe downgrade on the experience.
As for those without smartphones how did they buy the ticket, why didnt they reserve them? If it’s flexible then just have a machine at the station that lets you reserve a seat (but whatever you do don’t give too much choice or the queues will make people miss their train!)
As for those without smartphones how did they buy the ticket, why didnt they reserve them? If it’s flexible then just have a machine at the station that lets you reserve a seat (but whatever you do don’t give too much choice or the queues will make people miss their train!)
I think there are two issues, which can get conflated but are actually separate. Will you be forced to get a reservation to travel, and will the railway be advance purchases only with the off peak return fare scrapped? I’d be okay with mandatory reservations, providing you can reserve a seat up to 5-10 minutes before departure via an app. However, I would be very opposed to the ending of flexible off peak returns. Which is where I unfortunately think we are heading - like LNER.
But argubly less miserable than being stuck at the station because you weren't allowed on the train.
Eurostar mostly competes with airlines. So it can get away with acting like a pseudo airline. There is no comparison with a 3tph London to Birmingham service taking 45 minutes.
Probably, like Watford Junction.
Still too much faff for my taste. If reservations must be compulsory (ridiculous for a 45 minute journey to Birmingham) they should be the easiest thing in the world to obtain. You should be able to walk up to the barrier five minutes before departure, scan your Anytime ticket, and if there isn't already a reservation for that train it should generate one on the spot (perhaps spitting out a slip of paper with the seat number on it). Any reservations associated with that ticket for later trains should automatically be freed up. If people want to be picky about their seat (want to sit with other people etc.) then they can reserve via an app or TVM, but for those who mind less it should be possible to just walk up to the barrier and have the barrier allocate your seat immediately. The process should feel as easy as any other walk-up journey.
But again, compulsory reservations on a 45 minute journey with more than 800 seats departing every twenty minutes is ridiculous.
You do as you choose, but that doesn‘t mean that the rest of us shouldn't be able to choose too
If the train is packed then your skull wouldn’t be able to build up any momentum. Probably safer to be wedged than if you were walking back from the toilet when a derailment happened. This is why sheep were packed tightly into livestock wagons, so that they couldn't fall down.
Completely over the top. If you are really concerned then you're safer in a rear-facing seat - sudden deceleration won't make you faceplant the seat in front that way.
They need better spin doctors. Imagine the Daily Mail story:
Mr and Mrs Jones were forced to stand for 45 minutes from London to Birmingham blah blah blah... A GBR spokesperson said "we are delighted that HS2 has proven so popular and we trust that the Daily Mail will shelve all opposition to extending HS2 to Manchester and Leeds".
I (a millennial) have a smartphone and am very capable of using it for a wide range of functions (indeed I am typing this on it and might use it to adjust my lights to 48% brightness in a minute). That doesn't mean that I want to download yet another app just for the simple task of getting on a train. I want to just get on the train. In the Netherlands I can just touch in with a contactless card/Google Pay. I can also do that in London or South Wales. Train travel should not be a chore.
On which note I don't want to have to download an app to book an appointment at a barber shop. I want to walk into a barbershop, pick up an out-of-date magazine and wait my turn, just like the good old days way back in 2019.
Likewise, call me a "Luddite" but I want to be able to walk into the Science Museum (which is free to enter) without having to fill out a form to book a ticket in advance. God life is getting far too complicated, rant over!
I know we're covering the same ground repeatedly and I don't know Japan.
Two separate issues: Can it be made to work? Do I like it?
Pre-Internet (late 80s/early 90s?), walk up to machine, insert TGV Pro ticket (equivalent to open single), select change reservation (fiddly control, from memory), next train, out comes new ticket.
All that's wrong technically in the GB is that competitive retailing colliding with contractual interfaces and probably a geriatric backend reservations system so has failed to produce the necessary 'change my ticket in 10 seconds and 3 clicks', neither on TVM nor app.
Two separate issues: Can it be made to work? Do I like it?
Pre-Internet (late 80s/early 90s?), walk up to machine, insert TGV Pro ticket (equivalent to open single), select change reservation (fiddly control, from memory), next train, out comes new ticket.
All that's wrong technically in the GB is that competitive retailing colliding with contractual interfaces and probably a geriatric backend reservations system so has failed to produce the necessary 'change my ticket in 10 seconds and 3 clicks', neither on TVM nor app.
poffle
Member
The Avanti Everos (805/807) have sensors in the seats so the train knows exactly which seats are occupied and which are free. I think the plan is to tie this into real time reservation systems so you can reserve a seat a few minutes before travel even if it was originally booked by someone who didn't turn up or sat in another seat.
I presume this is part of the HS2 plan
I presume this is part of the HS2 plan
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
Sounds like something someone with a heavy bag could exploit to prevent the seat next to them ever being booked (also presumably it would need some level of cooldown period for people to go to the toilet/shop).
The japanese Shinkansen seat reservation policy is great. I was in Japan recently and loved it. However, it relies on frequent very long trains so that there is plentiful capacity to handle the demand. We just don't have that level of capacity on many UK lines, so our ticketting has to perform some sort of demand management role - nudging people onto less busy services so everyone doesn't try to all board the 6pm out of Euston etc.
As this thread is about HS2 we would indeed have that level of capacity in this instance.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Yes if you're travelling London to Birmingham Interchange. Not if you're travelling - say - London to Lancaster, when the next direct via-HS2-to-Handsacre service probably won't be for another hour.
London to Lancaster is a pretty minor flow. You're looking double figures per train on average at the moment. Even including Warrington and Wigan there is plenty of room for growth once the Preston and Glasgow passengers have their own, faster train every half hour.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Lancaster might be (nice though it is it's little more than an oversized market town), but if you include Crewe, Warrington and Wigan as well it's not that small.
~800 passengers per day without Crewe (as I think that would get Liverpool / Scotland services as well) – more than Bletchley or Birmingham International to Euston – or 1600 per day with Crewe, around the same as Northampton – Euston.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I suspect in any case that if that train ends up a bit quiet people will be priced onto it, being offered a cheaper ticket for a slower journey, just as is done to fill the "via Birmingham" services to the North West and Scotland, where you get a small discount if using Advances for Glasgow/North West, and a massive saving over price gouging LNER if going to Edinburgh. Otherwise it's likely the 200m Glasgow will be full all the time.
You’re such a Luddite
And there’s nothing wrong with that. Being forced to use E-tickets, no option but self checkout in supermarkets, online banking because you’re branch is closed, parking apps or it’s a parking ticket… the list goes on, things are being made over complicated all over the.
Technology is not wanted by many, and not accessible to many more. It’s not right to have this forced upon is. Don’t get me wrong, I love technology but I have family members who just don’t understand and don’t want it, and for many things I’d rather choose not to use it (personal security being one good reason) and let’s face it the driving force behind it is increased profits and not improved customer service. We’re being squeezed for every cent at every opportunity.
I booked that seat
No you didn’t, I booked that seat on the app 15 minutes ago
How can you book my seat when I just spent 30 minutes battling my way through the train to find a toilet that works
Sounds like a bonkers idea to me
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the idea I can only see it being practical where you can control access to the platform and hence to the train. At any station where a ticket holder can access multiple platforms once through the barriers its a non starter
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
An interesting aside to this is that if I go to an Odeon cinema I can change my allocated seat even after the film has started from the app if I want to. I do usually recheck before sitting down to make sure someone hasn't booked the seat next to me and change if they have, unless it's full. Allocated seating in cinemas (something that was done to drive a move to advance booking and save money on staffing ticket desks, which does have railway parallels*) does seem positive to me, as it means you can turn up much later and miss the adverts rather than having to go in first to get the best seats.
As to the Avanti thing (also done by camera on Pendolinos - those cameras along the ceiling aren't excessive CCTV position so the guard can read your newspaper, they check if seats are free or not) it doesn't seem to work consistently. In particular, if I occupy an unclaimed reserved seat it seems to assume I'm the reserved passenger and allows it to be re-reserved at the end of that reservation even if I am travelling further, which is quite annoying.
* If you close ticket offices you get a lot of adverse publicity. But if you reduce the demand for them by financially or otherwise inducing people to buy tickets other ways, people don't mind if they are quietly reduced in hours and the number of windows because they don't need them any more, but they can still see them so that's OK. I have a fairly strong suspicion that that is in part behind Northern's change to only selling Advances 15 minutes rather than 5 minutes before travel.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
That's an interesting problem, and I wonder what the best solution is. The issue is that, in the vast majority of cases, the person on the seat is the reserved passenger. So if the system doesn't assume the seat will become free at the end of the reservation, then it may end up refusing to provide a reservation to another passenger for that later part of the train's journey when the seat will actually be free.
I'm not sure I get the connection. Changing to sell advances only 15 minutes before travel seems to me like a deterrent to buying advances (which are usually bought online), so therefore would seem likely to increase demand for ticket offices rather than reduce it, if it means more people buy walk-up tickets (which can be bought at ticket offices)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
While I don't have stats, a lot of Northern Advances are sold close to travel (they were previously available up to 5 minutes before). Some would buy at booking offices and TVMs. Whereas almost nobody will get to the station 15 minutes beforehand to buy a ticket. They aren't priced like LNER ones, they're very closed to fixed price (or only have a couple of steps).
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
Ah OK I didn't realise Northern allowed you to buy advance tickets at booking offices - I'd assumed they could only be bought online. Now I understand your reasoning.
I deliberately omitted Crewe because it would see 3x200m per hour because it's also served by the Liverpool portions. Warrington and Wigan are more popular than Lancaster, but even then you're unlikely to struggle to find a seat on the 200m hourly stopper to Lancaster.
Indeed. I gladly use technology where it makes my life better. I object however to being forced to use it where it makes life more difficult, and is clearly designed to benefit the business, not the customer.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
They had stopped allowing it for a bit, but backtracked.
Agreed. For short distance flows, people will get on the first train that is heading in the right direction, regardless of operator. People who did the EPB farewell tour will no doubt recall that numerous people hopped on at London Bridge platform 6 and made the short journey to Charing Cross. Present day examples include Stockport to Manchester, Liverpool South Parkway to Lime Street, Newport to Cardiff and Wakefield Westgate to Leeds. In my experience, ticket checking is almost non existent between those stations so any ticket that gets people through the barriers will give access to any train.
Well no - if I thought I was likely to be in my reserved seat with unreserved people's bums in my face and blocking my way to the doors/loo and any hope of the trolley then I will just drive. Its bad enough on short distance commuter trains, unacceptable on intercity
Only if the bag has a sweaty bottom IIRC (or was that another train type?).
You would hope that if you sat in the seat before/whilst the train left your departure station then there would be a long delay before it assumed you had moved seat/gone to the loo. Would there be a downside of an app based reservation system letting you change your seat reservation whilst on the train (to get away from a smelly/large/loud person or to get a window for example), and even having a 'I'm popping to the loo/shop' button to assuage the worries? It could even let you hit 'need the loo' and tell you which way to go to find a working/free one!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
But then the trade off is that you may not be able to travel at all. If we're serious about people giving up cars then that isn't an acceptable situation, whereas if we see rail as an adjunct to the car (because if it's booked up you can drive) it is.
ThameslinkUser
Member
So the people without cars are second class citizens?
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