HS2 Compulsory Reservations

[A S Leib]

On the other hand, if you have compulsory reservations then you have to make sure you turn up early to avoid being delayed en route and missing your train – especially if you are arriving by road and so subject to the vagaries of traffic and/or unreliable buses. Whereas if you know you can just get on the next train, you might not be so bothered about cutting it fine and arriving with a few minutes to spare.

That's true; even with metro frequency services in western Hertfordshire, I normally plan journeys into London around specific departures if I have an advance ticket (especially if not from Euston, St. Pancras or King's Cross), and that's even more so the case with a twenty minute walk to a station.

Has there been any indication that season tickets won't be available on HS2 with existing flexibility or effectively as good as it? I can't imagine charging what will probably be tens of thousands of pounds per year (given that Manchester to London's already close to £19,000) without being able to use said season tickets at any time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So you are just making an assumption based on a bias and with absolutely nothing to back it up other than... it happens there.

corrilation is not causation.

In this case it absolutely is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Dec 2024 ==

Seat belts could stop the impact of seated passengers, luggage can be in contained areas, similar to airlines. Passengers using the road instead are of no concern to the ORR or HS2 risk assesment's, you could say the same of Eurostar passengers either flying or driving via Eurotunnel but it has had no effect on Eurostar having compulsory reservations from startup. Eurostar could have standing passengers since everyone would still go through security before boarding and a few standees per coach wouldn't make evacuation in the tunnel that much more difficult but they still don't allow it.

You are allowed to stand on Eurostar. I have spent the entire journey standing drinking in the buffet before. Therefore no safety issue.

I believe the reason for the rule is part commercial and part relating to tunnel evacuation.

 

[gabrielhj07]

I'd much rather stand for an hour between Crewe & London (say), than spend that hour on the platform waiting for a train with empty seats.

 

[A S Leib]

It hopefully / probably won't be many, but I wonder how many people would only decide on their route at the last minute, making a reservation on a HS2 service but ending up travelling on classic services with fewer changes, wasting the seat reservation.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If HS2 has truly compulsory reservations I wouldn't be suprised if people planning to travel on the existing WCML (on flexible tickets) make a reservation via HS2 just in case they need it.

Partly the same problem Avanti already has, except they allow unreserved people on to take up unoccupied seats.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If HS2 has truly compulsory reservations I wouldn't be suprised if people planning to travel on the existing WCML (on flexible tickets) make a reservation via HS2 just in case they need it.

Partly the same problem Avanti already has, except they allow unreserved people on to take up unoccupied seats.

I wouldn't be surprised if HS2 had no ticket interavailability with the classic railway.

 

[Horizon22]

Eurostar doesn't work for me. I hardly ever use it because they think their super-high fares near the time of travel (for trains that usually aren't full) are acceptable. Even Ryanair/easyJet don't fleece you to the same extent to go somewhere this weekend, say. The policy is about extorting revenue, nothing else.

As a private operator, surely this makes sense. Maximise yield?

Anyway as someone who semi-frequently goes on a continental main line route, I wouldn't consider not having a reservation. It's just the done thing and there never seems to be any major issues. The two caveats are a) it needs to be open until pretty close to departure and b) flexible for times of service disruption.

 

[A S Leib]

I wouldn't be surprised if HS2 had no ticket interavailability with the classic railway.

So would Watford to Birmingham season ticket holders have to decide between a season ticket via HS2 but not Coventry or one on direct services only, or would season tickets for HS2 be non-existent or limited to HS2 serviced stations?

 

[Brush 4]

The underlying issue here is the bias against spontaneity. Leisure travel in other words. Business trips are planned in advance so, reservations makes sense. Leisure trips are dependent on weather and spontaneous decisions. Someone may change their mind. You can't do that if reserving is compulsory.
Passenger choice is supposed to be the mantra but, TOC convenience is the reality.
I get around it by buying Rovers yes, in advance but on the day(s), I can decide in the moment then change plans according to whim and if there is disruption. I can use local and long distance services according to my needs. Reservation tickets on the seats with start and finish stations marked are better, because I can sit in a seat before the reservation station then move to one just vacated.

 

[Snow1964]

Seat reservations will always be available on long-distance trains, and no-one is arguing against them.

Rather depends on how you define long distance

Not available on services like Cardiff-Portsmouth (which is over 3 hours). HS2 London-Birmingham will be third of that journey time.

Its not like a numbered seat is offered on any journey over 1-2 hours, it's nearer 4 hours before reservations (not counted places) apply on some routes currently

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I wouldn't be surprised if HS2 had no ticket interavailability with the classic railway.

The current DfT policy is for the ICWC operator to run HS2 services, at least initially (notionally Avanti).
That means mixed services by the same TOC on routes north of Lichfield, similar to Southeastern and HS1.
That could all change, of course.

 

[stevieinselby]

The underlying issue here is the bias against spontaneity. Leisure travel in other words. Business trips are planned in advance so, reservations makes sense. Leisure trips are dependent on weather and spontaneous decisions. Someone may change their mind. You can't do that if reserving is compulsory.

Even if business trips are planned, people may still want flexibility for the return journey. Sometimes meetings or conferences finish early or overrun, or people want to spend a bit longer networking.

Rather depends on how you define long distance

Not available on services like Cardiff-Portsmouth (which is over 3 hours). HS2 London-Birmingham will be third of that journey time.

OK sure, there are some trains now that run as local services but over long distances, and don't have seat reservations.
That may be an issue to take up with GWR any other TOCs where it is the case, but it's not relevant in the context of a discussion about whether HS2 will/should have compulsory reservations.

 

[Bikeman78]

But surely you are saying the exact opposite. You are arguing that those who can/do plan should be punished to support your, erm, less well organised approach!

What is the expected frequency from London to Birmingham? The Dutch run a double decker every 10 minutes Amsterdam-Utrecht-Eindhoven. No need to book, just turn up and pile on. I've only had to stand occasionally in the rush hours.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Dec 2024 ==

I wonder how much of forcing mandatory reservations is trying to manage passenger capacity at stations; there's less need to turn up half an hour early if everybody knows they can get a seat.

Isn't the opposite true? If my ticket is only valid on one train, I'll turn up early to reduce the risk of having to buy a new ticket. With a flexible ticket, I get on the first available train after I arrive.

 

[Indigo Soup]

What is the expected frequency from London to Birmingham? The Dutch run a double decker every 10 minutes Amsterdam-Utrecht-Eindhoven. No need to book, just turn up and pile on. I've only had to stand occasionally in the rush hours.

One every 20 minutes, on the last published plan, which is the same as the WCML except that the trains will have nearly double the number of seats.

Isn't the opposite true? If my ticket is only valid on one train, I'll turn up early to reduce the risk of having to buy a new ticket. With a flexible ticket, I get on the first available train after I arrive.

I suspect it's actually trying to manage the potential bad publicity of 'HS2 cost eleventy squillion pounds - and I couldn't even get a seat!'

That's not materially different from '... and all the trains were sold out!', but it's much easier to spin the second one as the being phenomenally popular, rather than ineptitude.

 

[Discuss223]

What if someone wants to break their journey, as per conditions of several (most, but not all) Anytime tickets? Flexibility is the railway's unique selling point.

 

[A S Leib]

What if someone wants to break their journey, as per conditions of several (most, but not all) Anytime tickets? Flexibility is the railway's unique selling point.

Or changing between going to Birmingham Curzon Street or Interchange for example due to delays?

I suspect passengers breaking journeys are afterthoughts; I'd hope that the answer would just be "make a reservation for each leg" but I'm not sure.

 

[JonathanH]

What if someone wants to break their journey, as per conditions of several (most, but not all) Anytime tickets? Flexibility is the railway's unique selling point.

The number of people wanting to break their journey at Birmingham Interchange is going to be trivial.

 

[A S Leib]

The number of people wanting to break their journey at Birmingham Interchange is going to be trivial.

But it's another reason to hope that either classic line services aren't drastically cut, or that mandatory reservations won't apply to HS2 services running on classic lines.

 

[Discuss223]

The number of people wanting to break their journey at Birmingham Interchange is going to be trivial.

That doesn't make it OK. What about the example posted above by A S Leib?

 

[weeklycommuter]

The Standard are running a piece saying all HS2 passengers are guarenteed a seat. Whilst this is probably good from a PR perspective (opening a new railway and within days having people standing on crowded trains) it screams to be capacity crunch- something which HS2 really cannot afford in its current guise.

Every passenger will be guaranteed a seat on each double set train between London and Birmingham because the plan is three double set trains an hour each way each with over one thousand seats so there will always be enough seats for the number of passengers travelling on each train. This will be a commuter type train service like all the other commuter type train services. No seat reservations and no need for seat reservations. I expect passengers will also be able to pay by using contactless at the start and end of their HS2 train journey. It will be well into the 2030s when HS2 train services finally start so it is far too early to know all the details. The closest equivalent service now is Southeastern High Speed but I expect HS2 train fares to be the same as all other train services for the same journeys including Birmingham to London as the whole point is to persuade passengers making those journeys to travel on HS2 services instead of the stopping services to free up seats on the stopping train services for more passengers travelling to and from stations on route.

 

[A S Leib]

This will be a commuter type train service like all the other commuter type train services

Is the plan for all HS2 services to have on-board catering?

I expect passengers will also be able to pay by using contactless at the start and end of their HS2 train journey

I know that there's already SWR's PAYG system for Exeter / Weymouth – London, but that could lead to some very expensive charges if that happens for all HS2 services.

 

[jfowkes]

Is the plan for all HS2 services to have on-board catering?

I doubt the London-Birmingham services will. It's not a very long journey. Best guess, there might be a couple of vending machines.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt the London-Birmingham services will. It's not a very long journey. Best guess, there might be a couple of vending machines.

Replied here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/willhs2-have-catering.278422/

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Every passenger will be guaranteed a seat on each double set train between London and Birmingham because the plan is three double set trains an hour each way each with over one thousand seats so there will always be enough seats for the number of passengers travelling on each train.

That's a bold claim. Can you please also lend me info on the lottery numbers since you can clearly see into the future?

This will be a commuter type train service like all the other commuter type train services. No seat reservations and no need for seat reservations.

They've explicitly said it will be akin to Eurostar. I agree that it should be more like Southeastern High Speed, mind.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They've explicitly said it will be akin to Eurostar. I agree that it should be more like Southeastern High Speed, mind.

With regard to the Aston-Acton shuttles (or Birmingham-Euston) I would agree. Fixed price for a given time of day, high capacity, contactless payment (though paper tickets available if you must). The Birmingham is in essence a commuter route given the short journey time.

The Glasgows perhaps different.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

The Glasgows perhaps different.

I still disagree. Eurostar works efficiently because you can easily control access to the platforms. With the levels of frequency on HS2 access-control would be a challenge, and it will be likely there will be a not-insignificant number of rogue standees.

 

[A S Leib]

I still disagree. Eurostar works efficiently because you can easily control access to the platforms. With the levels of frequency on HS2 access-control would be a challenge, and it will be likely there will be a not-insignificant number of rogue standees.

Also the fact that Eurostar services stop, at most, three times between origin and destination (Lille, Brussels, Rotterdam), all of which are also segregated. The same probably won't be true of Carlisle or Runcorn.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I still disagree. Eurostar works efficiently because you can easily control access to the platforms. With the levels of frequency on HS2 access-control would be a challenge, and it will be likely there will be a not-insignificant number of rogue standees.

This assumes there will be any flexible tickets at all valid on it. Few are going to take the chance of boarding and standing if it'd cost them a £100+fare Penalty Fare or even a prosecution.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Few are going to take the chance of boarding and standing if it'd cost them a £100+fare Penalty Fare or even a prosecution.

I'm more thinking accidental.

 

[A S Leib]

This assumes there will be any flexible tickets at all valid on it.

Irregular day trippers are unlikely to care as much about half an hour saved between Birmingham and London as commuters, so I'd imagine that season tickets for HS2 would be available.