HS2 at Manchester

[deltic]

I keep saying elsewhere Mayfield will fit...

450m platforms and more platforms for through running (P15/P16)
Piccadilly Mayfield HS2 P15 P16 by D3Steve, on Flickr

It might fit but its not going there!

I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up in Salford. Can't see it going to Victoria as that would require MEN arena to be demolished, Piccadilly might be best station option but problem is getting there with huge amount of demolition or tunnelling needed.

 

[Invincibles]

Looking at the arial photo surely the best option is to the east of the current shed.

Build some platforms out there for East Manchester services (the ones that currently use 1-4) and extend the viaduct width to take these) This would also be part of restoring the curve to let trains go to Victoria.

Extend platforms 1-4 along the viaduct (including over the NR car park and portacabins)

The result is Mayfield can be sold off when the economy picks up and bring in much needed revenue.

No need for HS trains to cross any other paths (either 13/14 to the airport or 1-4 to the east).

It should be possible to do all of this without demolishing the old parcel offices that were recently refurbished

 

[stockport1]

i always thought that manchester central would be a great terminal for high speed services to liverpool. the original liverpool manchester line is very straight and would not need much

never mind hs2 as it is now. high speed to liverpool from manchster (10-15mins) would be a great start.

the present 50mins is an embarrasment for the worlds first passenger line.
also the track out of lime street is a joke.

ballastless track and electrify the line and stations. electrify.
divert all liverpool traffic to ox road on the clc south liv/manc line and via wigan to victoria in the mean time. cost ??? about £1 bil?

reopen central viaduct to odsall dual track and there is still space for 3 tracks on the main clc viaduct ,5 if metrolink was kicked off the viaduct.

from the station for High Speed services to chester/northwales via currently used metrolink altrincham line. west from here there are disused tracks to wcml at warrington. and east at stockport (needs reversal at the mo without link track)

also as a terminal for HS2. join the old didsbury line (was 4 track a lot af it back in the day) back across the mersey at heaton mersey. tunnel from parrs wood to join the old midland line still used for freight at cheadle. options then include joining midland mainline via matlock or rejoin west coast somewhere along the way from didsbury to alderly edge...maybe even including the airport. Another option is a flying junction to join wcml south of stockport where the tracks cross.

piccadilly is heaving. no changing that for anything. thats without a future reopening of woodhead and options west and north are very limited.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its interesting how working out how to fit HS2 into Manchester has produced so much more speculation and theorycrafting across the internet than existed for the Birmingham or London terminals before they were announced.

 

[stockport1]

another potential route south to the wcml from central would be a connection (flying junction) at kingsway (a34 in burnage) with the fallowfield loop..and continuing along the loop you could reach east manchester and the sheffield/woodhead route. great access to the airport using this proposal.

that would be quite a cheap option with only disruption to metrolink.

 

[DiscoSteve]

From Skyscraper City.... here's my suggested route in from the south. Three assumptions made:

1. Lichfield to Wilmslow is dealt with easily, plenty of space, so not worried about this piece.
2. Terminate at Mayfield/Piccadilly (take yer pick)
3. Airport Interchange Required.

Its going to be easier to see it Outbound, North to South - and white is above ground (cutting/embankment/bridge as required), orange is tunnel.

Leaving Terminus head south alongside or taking over two lines of the 6 track viaduct as far as Longsight Depot, drop off viaduct in green space and into a tunnel.

A mixture of tunnel and above ground where possible through Levenshulme, Burnage and Heaton Mersey - not too many properties lost

Tunnel under East Disdsbury and proceed above ground down to Mersey, bridging it and the M60

..and the M56, skirting between Gatley and Benchill, using a small tunnel where required (could just demolish a dozen houses instead)

Then its above ground in the green strip between Wythenshawe and Heald Green alongside Styal Road

Until it cross the Airport Railway Spur - the perfect location for an Airport Stop (via an integrated shuttle service up and down existing railway link) - this would sit above the spur and MAELR Western Extenstion - some houses on Ringway Road would have to go. HS2 continues south from here towards Styal

Squeezing between Quarry Bank Mill and Styal Village before entering a tunnel as it approaches Wilmslow...

Finally emerging to the East of the WCML and bridging over the A34 and continuing South Easterly above ground towards Lichfield

Thats only a total of about 3.5 miles of tunnel - considerably less than what is required to get out of London.

Just my view. Comments?

 

[HST Power]

I'd like the airport interchange.

 

[Invincibles]

I just thought of a really cheap solution thanks to Disco Steves map.

Close the Manchester Airport to Longsight line and give it over to HS2. Take HS2 off the formation near the current junction and up over what would still be a classical line from Wilmslow to the Airport station.

HS2 then runs into a curved station along the south east edge of the runway. This would have similar curved platforms parallel to the runway and others forming the triangle.

Glasgow bound trains would call here and go on to the north without hitting Manchester.

Manchester to Glasgow trains would serve the north curve (which would have higher platforms as necessary to grade separate).

HS shuttles would operate from the Airport station to Manchester Piccadilly. These would then be extended to serve Preston / Lancashire Parkway when that line was built. This will replace the current TPE/Northern alocation to the airport from the north west.

There may be paths for TPE running at 100mph to take trains to 13/14 and on through the new curve to Victoria, but this may not work. I do not know how hard it would be to path trains through there. Maybe the HS can be slowed down to 100 over this section without too much penalty.

The final stage then is to bring the link in from the west to run Liverpool and potentially other North West stations semi fast to the Airport that way.

 

[HST Power]

I think the only solution is to call NR and see what they think!

 

[CosherB]

Disco Steve's route is very twisty for a high speed line; much more so than the existing Wilmslow - Manchester route. And the southern end finishes pointing staright at the ridge of Alderley Edge, about a mile further south.

The existing railway routes around the west end of this ridge (which falls sharply to the Cheshire plain at the village of Alderley Edge). For Steve's route to do the same it needs to be about half a mile further west.

 

[DiscoSteve]

had a rethink and deals with your points twisty and alderley edge points (forgot about that - lived in this part of the world for four odd years so should know its there)
Main differences - Airport Interchange nearer to Styal Road and Line runs to the West of Wilmslow and Alderley Edge alongside new bypass for a stretch

BUT having looked a bit closed nearer the centre I reckon its feasible to four track the Styal Line down to the airport with not too much demolition - two new lines for HSR - this makes the entry into Piccadilly/Mayfield a cinch...

 

[Invincibles]

I have a feeling that the four tracking will be considered then

 

[DiscoSteve]

MEANT TO POST THIS ON THE OTHER THREAD:

Mayfield is the obvious place (if the western leg of HS2 terminates in Manchester)

Here's my latest thoughts on the route through South Manchester.
Starting from a New Mayfield on the South Side of WCML, take over the two south side lines on the six track viaduct down past the Longsight Depot before running onto the Styal Line - by singling the existing suburban service its not a huge undertaking to squeeze HS2 lines alongside it on the embankment between Slade Lane and the River Mersey - about a dozen bridges to widen, and there is about green space alongside 50% of this embankment on one side or other - with minor demolition or vertical retaining walls elsewhere. It gets a bit harder south of the river so some demolition required to get through Gatley and Heald Green but then build the HS2 Airport Station right on (or over) the airport triangle junction - use one side of the existing dual line (as a mini metrolink maybe) as the link down to the Airport Station. South of the triangle HS2 would diverge due South at the curve at Styal, dodging between Quarry Bank Mill and Styal before ploughing on south towards Lichfield (don't care after that there's plenty of space in Cheshire and Staffordshire)

I'll add in some detailed Birds Eye View Mock Ups to show what I mean...

 

[Waverley125]

Surely best way would be to Transfer all local services, aside from the Glossop & Hadfield trains, to a refurbished Mayfield? Connect via the existing bridge to Piccadilly. Divert TPE services to Liverpool & northwest to Victoria. You then have Glossop stoppers on 1 & 2, terminating and reversing TPE/XC services on 3 & 4, HS & VT on the rest.

 

[Nym]

What existing bridge?

If the Ardwick flyover was to be built it would have been combined with 8 track/6track to Slade Ln Jcn with slows fasts and easts in the main shed, and airport services in mayfeild. Aswell as East services that wouldn't fit.

It would be an option to provide HS platforms on the Northern side of Piccadilly, and push slow line terminators into a refurbished mayfeild, but, fast line terminators would only be able to use upto platform 9, thanks to 10 - 12 being quite short.