HS2 at Manchester

[Nym]

OK, i'm opening the floodgates for ideas as to where to slot HS2 into Manchester...

It's going to need:

-Terminal or Through station in Central Manchester
-Through Station at 'Manchester South Parkway' or Manchester Airport
-Connection to the WCML
-HS2 North Depot location (Near to big roads)

It would be nice to have:

-Connections to Chat Moss or CLC Routes (Connection to Liverpool)
-Manchester North Parkway at Horwich prior to connection to the WCML
-Better connections between Manchester Airport and Stockport
-Better connections between Manchester Airport and Altringham *sp
-Fast trains able to run through 'Manchester South Parkway' to WCML North, Liverpool and Manchester Central (that isn't a hint to station location)

Anything else that would be nice to have at this bit of HS2?

Also, where to slot it into Leeds?

-Through or Terminal Central Station very close to Leeds City (That is a hint)

 

[185]

The answer is:

Mayfield Goods, Fairfield St, Manchester.

Le HS2 habite ici surely?

 

[Nym]

Mayfeild goods only? or Mayfeild goods and all them industrial buildings to have 12+ platforms and have more picc platforms on the current mayfeild site?

 

[185]

I think HS2 at Manchester would cope with 8 platforms.

Roof height would be an issue as the stock will likely be double deck in years to come.

Mayfield (8 platforms at present) would obviously have to be totally flattened and the new shed would run from the start of the existing shed all the way to about 10m short of the MacDonald hotel.

The new alignment would track the curve of platform 14 and make use of the vacant land, currently car parks, grass triangle, old pub. This would only require some slight re-jigging of the planned civil-service campus planned to replace Mayfield.

Fairfield street could also be totally covered as a road-only tunnel.

For Scottish services there could be a through road continuing west joining the Oxford Road corridor by the university.

 

[Lampshade]

How long are the trains going to be? If anything like Eurostar length there isn't going to be enough space in Mayfield.

 

[Proud Salopian]

Mayfield is being sold off for private development AFAIK.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah Mayfields unavailable, also not much space to work with on eastern side of the centre round Pic or southern around Manchester Central.

A good spot may be water treatment plant near Salford Central which has a easy connection to the northern Liverpool-Manchester line as its allignment into the city centre with trains to Liverpool to.

Secondary spot may be nearer Salford on the side of the Ship canal in Pomona, 10 minutes from the centre.

I personally think they will have to either do a station on stilts or an underground station if they want it really in the centre.

 

[185]

Mayfield is still in the consultancy stage. With the property crash and government departmental spending being reviewed it's very likely when the plans for Mayfield next month are considered they will agree to scrap it.

There still is scope to build a HS2 station there. If the length of a train is the same as a Eurostar set, it is possible to build 6 tracks adjacent to platform 14 without affecting any in-use buildings.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well they would have to move Piccadillys new transformer shed.

 

[Invincibles]

I would put it somewhere near the M6, well for through trains to Scotland anyway. Services that wanted Manchester City Centre would be pathed up the airport line to reach longsight. From there a little bit of reworking (ideally a fly over) would take them over to the east side of the alignment for continuation to Manchester Victoria.

Through HS trains would go through platforms 4-6 (Platform 3 would be the only through traditional rail platform as a rule) where the alignment could then be extended alongside the existing tracks (reworking Salford Central to have platforms on the "missing" bit and then the current platforms to be HS - although obviously no station)

If this is considered with the building of the new Salford Crescent then the high speed alignment would follow the Bolton bound trackbed. All other trains would run through the old Salford station (which would be reconstructed as two islands - one manchester bound, one country bound) and then connect into the Bolton alignment just north west of the current location using a new section of line across the industrial wasteland.

HS lines would come back the other way across the wasteland and then use the space that exists along the alignment towards Wigan until they rejoin the actual HS line somewhere between Manchester and Wigan. The geogrpahy here will determine where the new HS station for "Manchester and Liverpool" would be. Liverpool trains would take the line from Wigan to Liverpool from the north (and be simply a shuttle from the HS station using dedicated platforms) or from the "Manchester Airport" station along the HS alignment (at the same time as a Manchester central departure) to a point where it crosses the Chat Moss and then they would use that to reach Liverpool.

These ideas are a little bit mad but they will make the scotland route faster, fit in with existing infastructure, and ensure that Manchester and Liverpool have good connections to the HS network.

The only reason Manchester has a line squeezed through it is I imagine, that like Virgin show, the bigger market for direct trains is from Manchester. Looking at the nature of development in the area and the potential for taking cars of the road having "parkway" stations near the airport and Wigan seems to be better than having all HS trains using manchester centre (especially given the land constraints in the centre)

At Victoria 2 through platforms and one terminal (currently platform 5) would ensure that a reasonable frequency of trains could use Manchester. Maybe some of these trains would terminate at "Manchester and Liverpool" as the next stop after Victoria.

If economic times were better there would be room for better interchange and a station in Salford which would fuel growth there. However at the moment I think a rebuilt Salford (pendlebury?) and simply taking the HS lines through with no station, is best.

Just a different suggestion

 

[Nym]

Well, for the Manchester Central Station I'd be looking at using all the currently deralict Mayfeild industrial area, the actual Mayfeild station I'd be putting into use for normal trains into Piccadilly, the line to penetrate Manchester would immerge from tunnels round about the E* depot at Longsight, and travel on a new viaduct along with the 6-tracking into Manchester Centre from the airport, I'd look at 12 platforms, so that if they needed to do quick turnrounds at Euston, they could do slower turnrounds at Piccadilly, cleaning etc.

Anyway, if the large industrial area was used, there could be more of a transport interchange in what would become the undercroft, with sliproads onto the Manchester Salford IRR, while demolishing most of east Manchester I'd be putting a bypass of the A57/A6 roundabout to the A57 from the A57M. That would allow the possiblity of a few through platforms, but it would mean double decking the lines through oxford road, or, building a new viaduct down witworth st to the 'central' area to meet the chat moss alignment.

Would also leave space for a pair of lines to leave and flyover at ardwick, and drive into a tunnel just after the FTPE depot, so that a line can run to Leeds or Sheffeild.

But to pull off the curves and gradients, it would need to be a double floor station, ie. through platforms built above the terminal ones, to access the Fairfeild St Viaduct then tie into the main lines south of the station. But I don't see many massive inital benifits of having a through station at Manchester, a terminal one would only be 5 mins from the 'mainline' at Manchester South Parkway, so a northbound service from manc would run down there, then northbound, but leave facility for a line through Manchester later.

I don't like the idea of Victoria, there just isn't space there IMO, I can spot space for 3 or 4 platforms, but Birmingham is getting 6 with potential for 8, Manchester needs at least the same, and considering how bigger junction it could become, HS2, then there could be HS TP and HS XC to deal with aswell,

I'm gonna knock a map together at some point.

Map of what I'd do to start with in Manc...

The yellow route would be the first bit to be laied, the green being an alternative to access manc airport campus, preferable I'd have both so that trains can run from South to North or to Manchester via any route without reversing, Inital connection to the WCML via the Chat Moss route.

Manchester West Parkway is next to a motorway junction and could be used as a park & ride for a shuttle service from Liverpool L St to Manchester Central, and for London Bound services, also plenty of spare land for popping in a depot...

 

[ukrob]

12 platforms is very optimistic! Turnaround times are planned to be around half an hour at either end. I don't see why a terminus (assuming it is a terminus) for four trains an hour would need 12 platforms sorry.

Will the stations requite straight level platforms? If so, that hugely impacts any location and size, unless it is underground or on stilts.

 

[Nym]

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.474842,-2.225622&spn=0.0047,0.010933&t=h&z=17

Station would be here...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

12 platforms is very optimistic! Turnaround times are planned to be around half an hour at either end. I don't see why a terminus (assuming it is a terminus) for four trains an hour would need 12 platforms sorry.

Will the stations requite straight level platforms? If so, that hugely impacts any location and size, unless it is underground or on stilts.

4tph to London, 2 or 3 tph to Liverpool via MSP, 1tph to Glasgow, 1tph to Edinburgh?

Add in HS-TP and then 4tph to Leeds... ? adds up...

 

[185]

I think it's time Piccadilly used the French Stacking method for major stations.
Upstairs for express, downstairs in the dark and dank undercroft for Glossop Shame Metrolink is in the way.

Someone mentioned the Piccadilly Transformer is in the way of the Mayfield extension; it's not if you build the line at the same height as platform 13/14.

 

[Proud Salopian]

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&ll=53.474842,-2.225622&spn=0.0047,0.010933&t=h&z=17

Station would be here...

Yep, that's a pretty safe bet. (For the station somewhere in that area - i.e. south of Piccadilly and Mayfield.) Ardwick International?

 

[Lampshade]

Don't send them down the Airport line, it'll need quadrupling soon enough as it is.

 

[Nym]

I should have been a tad clearer, it's going to be in a tunnel to access central Manchester. Or down the centre of a 4 tracked airport line route, but for the amount of disruption that would cause it would be cheaper to just bore from Heald Green to Longsight and from Hale Barnes to Durnham Massey (Under Altringham to get to the Chat Moss / CLC and WCML

Dotted line = tunnel...

Also you may notice that the Western Located station is nice and close to Risley interchange on the M62, for P+R and depot access...
Looking in retrospect, the green line that moves to the west at that delta junction is not nessesarry, and would be quicker to move fast through Manc South Pway, and simplifies junctions slightly, as the green route wouldn't need to connect into the main route, just feed into either side of MSP.

If there where to be fast trains not stopping at MSP then a non tunneled bypass line from the Mobberley Area to Manchester West Parkway would proberbly cut a good 5 minutes, but that would be for when HS2 gets further north...

 

[WatcherZero]

Last report I saw said they were considering a Southern Lancashire Parkway too, somewhere in an area serving motorists from Wigan, Bolton and Preston. Make of that what you will.

 

[Invincibles]

Thinking about all of this again, things are very tight on the southern approaches.

Is it right that the only two lines with space for 4 tracking are the line in through Walkden and back out through Guide Bridge?

Maybe the answer is actually to run the trains in from "Lancashire Parkway" and then down the Walkden route. If necessary that line could be closed to classic trains with all Wigan services run via Bolton. Manchester station would then span Salford Central to Victoria making used of the old Exchange site. 2 through platforms in Victoria would allow later extension to Leeds via Ashburys.

The sacrifice here is probably 5 minutes on the journey time, assuming the line to Lancashire Parkway is fast enough and the junction to Manchester well designed.

Similar adaptation of the classical lines into Liverpool could potentially open up a fast route into Liverpool (maybe the Kirby line?) and a station could be built near the original Liverpool Central. (Where the lines dive down to go into the underground section there does seem to be a lot of land)

There would also be real potential for a service from Manchester to Liverpool that only took about 30 minutes using the HS route (stopping at Lancashire Parkway if the junction is designed correctly - I invisage a cross design station similar to Tamworth, but with chords running from the main north south line to the manchester-liverpool line in all directions, almost like a motorway junction)

 

[RochdalePioneers]

Manchester Exchange? Direct access off the WCML, tunnel diveunder at Victoria and onwards to Yorkshire.

 

[Nym]

*coughs* has anyone measured Manchester Exchange's space recently?

Invincibles, I like the idea but... Missing out Manchester Airport is a mistake, and yes, there is space for 4 tracking on the route through Walkden, 4 tracks of Standard Guage clearance, by the time you've faffed about changing round the platforms replaced 20 or so bridges for hight clearence, demolished parts of Walkden, removed any chance of a railway line to Leigh re-built Victoria so it's even more under capacity and demolished half the undercroft as it's going to be enough of a challenge to just fit wires in, threaded a HS line through the villages of South Bolton and East Wigan, built a station that will take shed loads off traffic ONTO the M61, A580 and local roads, as I wouldn't expect a D2AP spur from the M61 to be built, let alone the M60, while on the subject of witch, them bridges would need modifyng, or the Atherton Loop singling, as I dowbt the HA would be too pleased with taking up 15 lanes of A580, M61 and M60 motorway, by the time you've paid all this and added upto 10 mins onto journey timem you might as well tunnel from Heald Green to Longsight, or Double Deck the Airport Line and have passengers being brought to where they want to be and where all the connecting services are, Piccadilly. Yes it woulld be nice to have Victoria back to being a proper station again, but there isn't space without flattening the MEN arena! The exchange platforms are just too far away to be of use today and if we wanted more terminal platforms for services from the West (witch if what we're desprate for at the minute), a cheaper option would to either bring Central back into use, (A small curve and viaduct from the Windsor Link / Ordstall Lane, Modify the Tram Stop to fit a 2 track electrified line in, then we're only short of somwhere for the CLC to terminate, and that could be acceived with some shiney new(old) track from Cornbrook to Central. </rant>

<RANT> Leeds to Manchester btw doesn't NEED to be HS, it needs to be better seperated from stoppers with as higher classic line speed as possible, dedicated HS would be nice but it would need a station at Huddersfeild.

 

[Invincibles]

OK then another daft one.

Raise the level of the line that approaches Ashburys from Belle Vue (from memory there is enough land to do this and have another set of tracks on a level - the land is currently as if there were two tracks going down hill to pass under the Guide Bridge line) and take it over the top to head towards Victoria.

Then four track Guide Bridge to Ashburys so that the slow trains all use the current freight only link to Victoria. Add two platforms at Ashburys as suggested.

Now create a chord from the Stockport to Guide Bridge line onto the land to the left of the line through Belle Vue (This will take the "slow" Stockport to Manchester services - Primarily from the Hope Valley line but also others from Stoke/Macclesfield) This seems to fit on google, but I have no certainty it can be done. Failing that there is an existing chord a little further out, this could be upgraded and linked into the two tracks from Guide Bridge that do still go to Piccadilly.

Now services to Sheffield, Hadfield, Glossop, New Mills, Marple, Rose Hill would all run from Victoria using the extra links to that freight corridor

Services to Cleethorpes, Norwich, Stoke, Macclesfield etc would pass through Ardwick and use platforms 1-4 at Piccadilly. Similarly services to Newcastle/Middlesborough from the airport.

Liverpool transpennine would run through Victoria so I am leaving that one out.

Liverpool to Norwich would cease to be a through service, instead a Liverpool to Sheffield Northern train would be created to serve Chinley, Edale, Hathersage, Sheffield. Slower but probably the main stations that need a service in the peaks (Extra stops in the summer)

Now that frees Stockport to Manchester Piccadilly (Platforms 2,3 and 4 at Stockport) for use solely by London / Cross Country trains. This should create extra capacity in theory. Also platforms 4-10 are now free for such trains. There would only be two lines over Stockport viaduct (one in each direction) but I think that could cope and would be the only real pinch point as it soon opens out to 4 track again once the "guide bridge" lines have left.

HS trains could route in through Handforth and Cheadle Hulme with appropriate provision of extra track between Cheadle and Stockport (I think 4 will fit)

Stopping services to Crewe would all run via the classic lines and the airport, sorry to people wanting Handforth station but it would probably be a casualty of the links.

Manchester central trains would not call at the airport, but the HS line continuing north could do.

As far as I can tell this means the throat of Piccadilly is greatly simplified with dedicated pairs of lines for Airport, Stockport FAST and Stockport SLOW (via Reddish). This should provide the capacity needed I think.

Mayfield or whatever could be sorted out as a long term objective.

Extra platforms would be needed at Victoria to cope with all the new services from the east, but many could be extensions of trains from the West, Hadfield could be an extension of Liverpool electric trains for example.

--------------------------------

Chester to Manchester services would use Stockport Platform 4, or ideally a bay at the south end of stockport, and have easy connections to Manchester trains if paths can not be found for them.

In the latter case then Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel would need to find a dedicated service to Stockport, possibly the north facing bay?

 

[Nym]

Sounds good even though it's a hell of a lot of track works. All I'm wondering at the minute is how many track works would be needed before it's cheaper to just bore a tunnel, I'd purposefully be trying to avoid Stockport Viaduct for gauging issues, no doubt the massive population of one Cheshire town will be ****ed off they don't have a high speed direct service to London, but I do think that multi-modal transport would be better served at Manc Airport where many modes can meet. Namely, Bus, Tram, Train, Car, and Air. I wouldn't be leaving stockport out though, I'd look at building a line from Heald Green Jcn. to Cheadle Hume, putting Stockport 8mins from Manc Airport, Still, no-one's mentioned anything more on Leeds yet?

 

[Invincibles]

Not too many trackworks really

Upgrades to:

Stockport - Reddish South (just past)
Guide Bridge - Ashburys
(Wilmslow) - Stockport

New track:

Viaduct over the Ashburys line with appropriate up and down
Some work on the Piccadilly approach east side
Extra platforms at Manchester Victoria
2 extra lines parallel to the Belle Vue section

Overall I think it is only about 20 miles of new track, which is not too bad.

Just the worlds most complicated scheme to understand

 

[tbtc]

Would it work to build a new Airport station directly on the Manchester - Crewe line, with a monorail from there into the Airport terminal? That way you'd have more scope for through services, and to divert more Crewe trains that way (freeing up Stockport space)?

(not strictly HS2 related, sorry)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All I'm wondering at the minute is how many track works would be needed before it's cheaper to just bore a tunnel, I'd purposefully be trying to avoid Stockport Viaduct for gauging issues

Isn't there an Act of Parliament which says that any railway tunneling underneath Stockport needs to stop all services in the town?

 

[cle]

I think it's to do with the viaduct - but it didn't stop Cross Country having a few skip there. I think they've been reinstated though.

Audley End has something similar mandating everything to stop, even though it's hardly a major destination.

 

[WatcherZero]

Since an act of parliament would mandate the construction of the line they could easily put in an exemption.

 

[Ivo]

Without the use of a tunnel I just can't see how HS2 would get into central Manchester. Piccadilly is probably Britain's most over-crowded station as it is, so maybe the answer lies in a new interchange underground. Along the lines of the Picc-Vic tunnel, but not as ambitious for non-HS2 services, provide a dive-under for services to the Airport somewhere near Longsight and then a larger complex in the vicinity of Piccadilly Gardens, with about twelve platforms. Four of these can be for the Airport routes which would previously have been routed into Piccadilly (freeing up capacity there by negating the need for the reversals), and the remaining eight can be for HS2. It would also minimise (or even eliminate if a new HX-esque service were introduced) the need for a Manchester Airport station on HS2. As for HS2, two platforms could be bays, and then there could be through platforms heading east (for Yorkshire), west (for Liverpool), and north-west (Lancashire/Scotland). And lastly, Piccadilly Gardens tram stop could gain some underground Platforms, and services would upon the completion of the Big Bang would terminate at Piccadilly could instead terminate at the new stop.

Oh wait: It's too expensive.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'd suggest HighSpeed running (northbound) end near Alderley Edge. The line would then follow the A34 (raised above the road where it is not possible to run alongside it) to just north of Heald Green, after which it would enter tunnel. There's what looks on Google Earth to be a bit of old rail alignment crossing the B5167 at Didsbury which could allow a short cut-and-cover (or maybe even surface running) to reduce tunnel costs slightly. The use of the disused terminal station next to Piccadilly could be useful, if it is long enough for the 400m trains, but classic compatible trains would need a subterainian station as they need to continue through at least to Preston. The route in would also have to be different to use that station.

Some of you have mentioned a 'Transpenine HighSpeed' line. I imagine this would be an X shape (mainly formed of existing lines upgraded to 140mph), with one line from Liverpool to York via Manchester and Leeds and the other from Sheffield to Preston (sharing the Manchester - Preston section with HS2). The subterainian HS2 station would be just to the North-West of Manchester Piccidilly and could be placed on all 3-sides a triangular junction (South for Birmigham and London, West for Liverpool and Preston and East for Sheffield, York and Leeds). A second 'HS-X' could be formed at Leeds by a new 140mph route from Doncaster to Bradford.

After the underground Manchester station the line would surface at the start of the M602 and use similar methods to following the A34 on the way in, following the M602 out to the M60 junction. There the 'HS-X' route to Liverpool would branch off, using existing lines or the M62 route. The route to Preston would loop back after the motorway junction to follow the M60, then the M61 with HighSpeed linespeeds resuming about where the A575 Worsley Road crosses the M61. The line would leave the M61 to run alongside the existing railway just before Blackrod station, before connecting with the classic line between Blackrod and Adlington.

For the London end, I'd be interested to know how steep a gradient the HS2 trains would be able to manage on the approach and departure from a station.

 

[Nym]

One problem with that, Where is Manchester South Parkway going to be? and why approach over the A34 when there's plenty of empty land that you can approach Heald Green on? The A34 is very very curved and runs through the middle of some tight town centres and through Wilmslow and other towns and villages that will not want an HS Line, they already have flight paths out of Ringway Intl. to put up with.
Underground station, Manchester, Not going to happen! There simply isn't space down there, you COULD dig up piccadilly gardens, if you want to move underground cables, stop the tram and bus network and demolish the underpinnings of a couple of buildings, while trying to dodge the BT Exchange under there. There isn't a blank peice of land big enough to cut and cover, leaving of course, mayfeild, but why cut and cover at mayfeild when it's about a tenth of the price to build it at the same track level as Piccadilly above Fairfeild St and Mancunian way, incoperating a drop off and pickup interchange onto the A635/A57/A6
Mayfeild isn't long enough for a station but the disused land next to it is, as discussed above, in addition to this it will be needed for classic line services in the near future anyway.
Running through Manchester City Centre is going to be damn expensive, as tunneling is bloody hard to do in Manchester for reasons certain organisations would rather we didn't know, and because it's just not practical. Pushing through Mayfeild would mean you can have a viaduct toward central and follow the chat moss route out of Manchester, but that would mean duplexing with the M602, bringing me onto my next point, that I'm sure I've made before.
You can build on top of the M602 yes, or the A57 or any other major route in or out of Manchester, but it's not practical to do so, if you need a route out of Manchester to the North, the best route IMO would be to follow the route of the M601 (use google), you'd hit problems slotting it through Bradley Fold, but it's a route that could be used, or of course, tunnel.
If you're leaving Manchester in the direction of Worsley, why not just use the old trackbed to the South Wigan Junctions via Tyldsley and Atherleigh?