How to encourage bus use?

[starrymarkb]

Generally the buses have a transponder that a sensor on the approach to the lights detects and changes for the bus...

 

[90019]

Generally the buses have a transponder that a sensor on the approach to the lights detects and changes for the bus...

All of our buses have them fitted, but they don't really work.

 

[Deerfold]

Generally the buses have a transponder that a sensor on the approach to the lights detects and changes for the bus...

Although in places with lots of buses it can get complicated - for example if more than 1 bus is approaching from different directions.

Some systems will only change for buses which are late but then either the bus or a central system has to be able to work that out.

 

[90019]

Some systems will only change for buses which are late but then either the bus or a central system has to be able to work that out.

I believe that's how ours works (when it works), and it's tied into the AVL on the bus.

 

[Statto]

Keep the flat rate fare, but just let me use my ticket within a certain time on other buses. And if the second bus takes me outside of any sort of zone, when I board that bus and ask to go to wherever, let my smartcard automatically charge only the difference (in effect an extension).

All dead simple with modern technology.

Also, these are the new style timetables being introduced by Herts County Council;

View attachment 13534

Not perfect as I don't believe at the bigger stops they have a map like London bus stops do - and as such you can find yourself having to check 10-20 timetables like this to see which ones you can take. There are still a few too many notes and other confusing additions on the page too, which - again - become more complicated at a bus stop with more than one bus!

Good point, i was looking at timetables on Friday, where i wanted to go had a few routes operating, which i had to look up 6/7 different timetables then trying to remember the times as in my area they're not always listed at the stop. At stops with shelters in Greater Manchester as well as the times & the timers are listed together rather than individual routes[ this is an example http://www.flickr.com/photos/raver_mikey/8092229329/sizes/l/in/photostream/], & they have a bus map of the area at the stop.

Another problem is the fares, very few operators list single fares, especially annoying if the operator has stage fares rather than one flat fare. Then you have the situation of 2 or more different operators on the route or sections of the route who charge different fares which can be even more confusing when the single fares not listed.

 

[jon0844]

Finding fares for buses appears to be impossible.. unless there are any websites that do route planning for buses (outside of London)? I can see bus information on my Android app, but can't do route planning and nor can I find out anything about fares - or what fares are available (single, return, daily pass, season etc). I hate asking a bus driver for information as many just want to drive, not offer customer assistance (and I sympathise with them - and the other passengers that are also cursing you when you're asking!).

It is rather stupid for any bus operator or council to encourage people to try using a bus, which expects the correct change to be presented, and people won't have a clue if it's going to be £1, £2, £4 or more.

I pay £1.50 for my local bus (£2.20 return) but when I was in the Lake District, a journey of just a few stops was £4 (hopefully that was flat rate!!) and I was rather shocked but luckily had the coins to pay for me and the wife. How much should you carry, in coins, to be on the safe side?

Outside of London, when you think about it, buses are actually quite daunting - and if I went tomorrow to another town, I possibly wouldn't have a clue where to go or what to pay if the bus stops had very little information and no maps - or just loads of stops with names that mean nothing to me.

 

[northwichcat]

Finding fares for buses appears to be impossible..

Most operators who have a website give a day ticket price on their site and then say single fares are also available. (Some operators also offer return tickets but not all do.)

 

[jon0844]

Sadly, Uno Bus only offers this;

http://www.unobus.info/fares.html

Which doesn't show the fares that I'd pay (or do pay), or indeed fares for non UH Students/staff. I guess they want to sell the passes - but not everyone needs a £5.50 day pass.

I seem to recall that the old-style timetables produced by Uno had the same day pass prices on them, but not the fares for the actual route (whether flat rate or crossing zones).

If I want to go to WGC from Hatfield, I can take a bus from a nearby business park that goes 'the back way' via the countryside. I had no idea how much that cost the first time I used it (it's about £2.50 I think, single) and there was nothing at the bus stop to say.

How hard would it be to publish this information? I guess Uno doesn't want to do it because fare increases aren't often in line with a new timetable and so it means updating the posters at every stop... but I wonder how many more people might travel IF there was more useful information and maps at bus stops? Likewise, if you could get a smartcard and just bung £10 or so on it so you'd know you can always get a bus without having the right money (or ANY money!).

I'm all for the local authority taking more charge of buses to sort out this nonsense, as buses should be as easy to use as trains. With real-time info, you'd never run the risk of missing a bus or waiting for a bus that isn't coming (assuming any of these systems can show a cancelled bus?).

 

[Statto]

Most operators who have a website give a day ticket price on their site and then say single fares are also available. (Some operators also offer return tickets but not all do.)

Some operators only list the single if it's one single flat fare, most operators only list day & season tickets. Return journeys are also another problem as is some cases the return journey is operated by a different operator with return tickets are not valid unless the route is under QBP.

I do loath operators who insist on exact fare only, i was nearly caught out once by this on the 30 Newport-Cardiff, it was the first & only time i've used the service, the fare was £1.80 but i didn't know it was exact fare, fortunately however turned out i had the correct money for the fare.

 

[Condor7]

I have to visit Leeds most weeks and stay about 7 miles out of the centre.
There is a regular bus service, very frequent, with modern Volvo buses with the Wright bodywork. There are plenty of bus lanes on the way in ensuring a much quicker journey than by car, certainly during rush hours. I could also take a book and catch up on my reading, and no parking fees when I get into town.

So I keep asking myself why do I not ever think of catching the bus?

Despite all the above, my car in right outside where I stay and returns there, whereas the bus stop is a 5 minute walk, and for a good part of the year not a very pleasant place to stand even for a short time. Without trying to show off my car is a nice car, very comfortable with heated seats. Although I end up bumper to bumper for most of the journey I have nice surroundings to sit in, with the radio or cd player to use. I can make or take phone calls on hands free without being overheard.

One thing I do know is price has nothing to do with it, they could offer free travel and I would still use the car. I do of course realise that for many this would be an important consideration.

I must admit the thought of catching up on my reading while on the bus is a consideration and one that this thread has made me think about, but if I did catch the bus it would have to be a reasonably nice day, and during rush hour or the temptation to jump in the car would be to great.

 

[jon0844]

I love my car too. It also has heated seats and 240bhp on tap for when the roads aren't snarled up.

However, I would like to use buses more. When I go by train somewhere, I'm more likely to take a taxi as I'm unlikely to have a clue where the buses go, or what bus I need to take (especially at bus terminals were there are loads of stops, but you then find that there are buses from different stops that go to where you want - so which one do you stand by?!)

Then there's the question of paying, and then knowing where to get off. All quite daunting, so you either take a cab, walk (as I often do) or take the car - thus skipping the train too!

London has the best network, with the best signs and maps, along with real time info and a wealth of apps to show where buses are and all the buses you can take - plus decent fares. People don't know how lucky they are, even when fares go up but are still far cheaper than most people pay outside of town.

If only local authorities and bus operators could realise just how much more business they could attract by implementing as many of these things as possible. Even buses made in the early 2000s are still likely to be pretty modern and accessible inside, so it's not even the case that passengers are forced to sit on dirty buses with horrible seats.

 

[tbtc]

One thing I do know is price has nothing to do with it, they could offer free travel and I would still use the car

This is an important point - you could make all public transport free (trains included) and still see thousands of cars on the road. Look at how pensioners still drive in reasonable numbers despite having country-wide bus passes.

 

[Deerfold]

This is an important point - you could make all public transport free (trains included) and still see thousands of cars on the road. Look at how pensioners still drive in reasonable numbers despite having country-wide bus passes.

Although some of them either don't have a local bus service or use the car when buying heavy shopping or going longer distances. My mum virtually stopped driving when she got hers and even my dad uses the bus from time to time, having not used them with any frequency since his early 20s.

Some councils don't promote the passes much either.

It's only recently that I've found out that my wife's grandmother is entitled to free travel for herself and a companion within West Yorkshire after 0930 on trains. As this is because of her visual impairment and she has no internet she was unlikey to have found this out for herself (and I've actually bought a concessionary fare for her and a fare for me when travelling by train with her).

 

[radamfi]

Obviously the fact that single bus fares are rarely publicised is ridiculous. What is even more stupid is that you pay separately when you change buses, so it costs more to change than to get a through bus for the same trip. That doesn't apply for trains, and doesn't apply on buses in most other places in the developed world. So why does the UK and Ireland still do it? Even London is no better and the flat fare system makes the change penalty worse.

Does anyone here think that is acceptable? It is nothing to do with deregulation as things were even worse before 1986 as day tickets were less common. Dublin and Belfast operate in the same way and deregulation doesn't apply there.

 

[Muzer]

Currently buses seem to me to only be popular for short journeys within towns or cities. I do find it odd that services further afield to the surrounding villages never do well. For example, before September 2011 (I think it was), there was a good service from Andover to Stockbridge via the villages (including the one I lived) - I think hourly and it went on all day into the late evening - they weren't too well-used though. Now, there are four buses per day, and many of them are now virtually deserted because the times are just too awkward.


But yes, I always did (and still do in new places) get a little daunted by buses. Clear signs to show where you are (they could paint them on the front of bus shelters, I dunno about smaller stops but perhaps they wouldn't be needed), published lists of stops shown on maps (so you know roughly how close you are), and easier to find timetables for less well-serviced routes (would keeping a stock of them at bus stops work that are replenished once a day or would they all just get taken "for a laugh"?) would all be things that would make me more likely to travel by bus.

 

[Greenback]

I asked my parents a while back about their use of buses with their All Wales Concessionary Pass. My father said he uses the bus on average once a fortnight but woudl try and sue it more to save money on fuel.

My mother said she uses the bus once a week for shopping.

When I asked why they didn't the bus more, the answer was that it wasn't convenient enough. They only have one bus an hour (with a couple of gaps) and it means that they lose the flexibility of travelling when they want to, rather than when the timetable says they have to!

They would not consider using the bus for anything but a simple journey (5 miles) into the city centre, as the thought of having to change buses to go anywhere else puts them off.

They will not use the few evening buses because they don't go out anywhere in the night anyway!

 

[northwichcat]

My mother said she uses the bus once a week for shopping.

My mum (a pass holder and car owner) also uses the bus once a week for shopping. However, only a mid-week shop to pick up some fresh fruit, vegetables, bread, milk etc. she thinks trying to take a full weekly shop on the bus would be inconvenient due to how much would need to be carried and thinks she might need to make additional shopping trips if she never used the car and did all shopping using public transport.

My mum's idea of hell would be making a journey from her home in Cheshire to a relative living between Hereford and Abergavenny by public transport. For my mum that would involve a 200yd walk to a bus stop to catch a bus to Wilmslow, then a train to Hereford and then an onward bus and a 1 mile walk.

On the other hand I once made a journey to a village in South Yorks using public transport which involved a 1 mile walk to the station, a train to Stockport, a train to Sheffield, then another local train and then a bus ride. It's only when I was going back that I realised how much effort it had been.

 

[Greenback]

My mum (a pass holder and car owner) also uses the bus once a week for shopping. However, only a mid-week shop to pick up some fresh fruit, vegetables, bread, milk etc. she thinks trying to take a full weekly shop on the bus would be inconvenient due to how much would need to be carried and thinks she might need to make additional shopping trips if she never used the car and did all shopping using public transport.

Yes, my mother uses the car for her main shopping trip (she usually visits at least two as she likes different things from different ones). She uses the bus when she just wants to have a bit of a browse in whats left of the High Street!

My mum's idea of hell would be making a journey from her home in Cheshire to a relative living between Hereford and Abergavenny by public transport. For my mum that would involve a 200yd walk to a bus stop to catch a bus to Wilmslow, then a train to Hereford and then an onward bus and a 1 mile walk.

My mum does use the train to go to Cardiff once or twice a year, but that is about her limit. And it's only because she is scared of driving there.

On the other hand I once made a journey to a village in South Yorks using public transport which involved a 1 mile walk to the station, a train to Stockport, a train to Sheffield, then another local train and then a bus ride. It's only when I was going back that I realised how much effort it had been.

It's surprising how much effort it is! I once took a bus from my flat to Reading station, then a train to Basingstoke, then another bus to a small village that I have forgotten the name of. Hanging around for the buses on the way there and then again on the way back really sapped my energy!

I think it is the hanging around for late running buses, plus the chance of missing connections that puts a lot of people off making anything but the simpelst of journeys.

 

[Statto]

I think it is the hanging around for late running buses, plus the chance of missing connections that puts a lot of people off making anything but the simplest of journeys.

Good point, connections are another thing nothing worse than catching a bus then finding out you have to wait 30 min+ for a connecting service, far worse evening & Sundays when you find the connecting service doesn't operate.

In my area there's Joblink buses however they don't run at weekends & the place they run to[Broughton Airbus factory] the journey one way takes 2 hours, imagine doing a journey both ways on the bus then doing a full 8 hour shift with overtime no wonder people prefer the Car.

 

[90019]

My father said he uses the bus on average once a fortnight but woudl try and sue it more to save money on fuel.

That seems a tad harsh!

 

[theageofthetra]

In London buses should have a time validity like most European cities or even the Croydon Tramlink. Paying each time is just daft. In the next round of procurements all should be air conditioned as part of the spec. Not just for the summer either I am sick of having water dripping down the inside of the windows or so steamed up you can't see out. Banning all food from then as in other countries would make the whole experience more pleasant too.

 

[radamfi]

Good point, connections are another thing nothing worse than catching a bus then finding out you have to wait 30 min+ for a connecting service, far worse evening & Sundays when you find the connecting service doesn't operate.

In the Netherlands and Switzerland especially, lower frequency buses are carefully timed to connect at set times past each hour. This does cost money as it requires increased layover time meaning higher PVR. But it means that buses can be used effectively for a wide variety of journeys, not just for the few places that can be accessed by a direct bus. Obviously the same policy is used for trains in many places.
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In the next round of procurements all should be air conditioned as part of the spec. Not just for the summer either I am sick of having water dripping down the inside of the windows or so steamed up you can't see out.

Air conditioning is ideal but most places in Europe outside the UK and Ireland use double glazing which prevents steamed up windows. One good thing about First is that they buy a lot of Wright bodied single deckers which are double glazed.

 

[jon0844]

Air conditioning simply makes the journey more pleasant in places where buses are often not moving, or are left in the sun for long periods of time to heat up.

Some buses will air condition upstairs only, which I guess is the section where heat rises and has the most glass. That's a step in the right direction (and might just encourage more people to stop standing downstairs when there's room upstairs!).

A time-based system would be a good idea but I bet Londoners would moan (well the natives, not anyone who has moved from somewhere else in the EU that will be saying 'about time!').

 

[radamfi]

Some buses will air condition upstairs only, which I guess is the section where heat rises and has the most glass. That's a step in the right direction (and might just encourage more people to stop standing downstairs when there's room upstairs!).

Are you talking about London buses? Some double deckers have an air cooling system which is merely a big fan although it is better than nothing. These do allow the hopper windows to be open, whilst proper air conditioning wouldn't have opening windows.

One of the main reasons why buses in the UK and Ireland don't have air conditioning or double glazing is weight. In the few places outside the UK and Ireland where a lot of double deckers used (Berlin, Hong Kong, Singapore), the buses have three axles. It is a matter of debate whether British buses should actually be three axles these days even at basic specification as weight has increased in recent years because of heavier passengers and more equipment on the bus. This argument is particularly pertinent for the New Bus for London (Borismaster) as that bus is long and has air conditioning.

A time-based system would be a good idea but I bet Londoners would moan (well the natives, not anyone who has moved from somewhere else in the EU that will be saying 'about time!').

Those people who don't currently change would pay more under a time-based system, unless there was extra subsidy. But if there was extra subsidy, a mayor would gain more political capital by merely reducing the existing flat fare. It would therefore require political courage to bring in a time-based fare. It would certainly reduce excess demand on certain routes, particularly if the tube was included. Route 25, for example, mirrors the Central Line and Abellio Greater Anglia for almost its entire route, but has massive patronage because it travels through deprived areas so there are many people who use the bus for long distances into central London because it is a long direct route so only incurs one flat fare.

 

[jon0844]

Are you talking about London buses? Some double deckers have an air cooling system which is merely a big fan although it is better than nothing. These do allow the hopper windows to be open, whilst proper air conditioning wouldn't have opening windows.

Feeling what I believed to be cold air coming out, I thought it was cooled air - but perhaps not.

I don't think any windows were open on the bus though.

One of the main reasons why buses in the UK and Ireland don't have air conditioning or double glazing is weight. In the few places outside the UK and Ireland where a lot of double deckers used (Berlin, Hong Kong, Singapore), the buses have three axles. It is a matter of debate whether British buses should actually be three axles these days even at basic specification as weight has increased in recent years because of heavier passengers and more equipment on the bus. This argument is particularly pertinent for the New Bus for London (Borismaster) as that bus is long and has air conditioning.

Seen so many of these but still haven't been on one!

 

[Deerfold]

Seen so many of these but still haven't been on one!

Though a year after its first run in London there's still only 4 out at any given time.

 

[LE Greys]

Air conditioning simply makes the journey more pleasant in places where buses are often not moving, or are left in the sun for long periods of time to heat up.

Like practically any populated area.

Some buses will air condition upstairs only, which I guess is the section where heat rises and has the most glass. That's a step in the right direction (and might just encourage more people to stop standing downstairs when there's room upstairs!).

A time-based system would be a good idea but I bet Londoners would moan (well the natives, not anyone who has moved from somewhere else in the EU that will be saying 'about time!').

I wish they'd apply it in other locations as well. Being able to get to Hitchin on one ticket without walking a mile each way would certainly encourage me to use the bus a lot more.
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Currently buses seem to me to only be popular for short journeys within towns or cities. I do find it odd that services further afield to the surrounding villages never do well. For example, before September 2011 (I think it was), there was a good service from Andover to Stockbridge via the villages (including the one I lived) - I think hourly and it went on all day into the late evening - they weren't too well-used though. Now, there are four buses per day, and many of them are now virtually deserted because the times are just too awkward.


But yes, I always did (and still do in new places) get a little daunted by buses. Clear signs to show where you are (they could paint them on the front of bus shelters, I dunno about smaller stops but perhaps they wouldn't be needed), published lists of stops shown on maps (so you know roughly how close you are), and easier to find timetables for less well-serviced routes (would keeping a stock of them at bus stops work that are replenished once a day or would they all just get taken "for a laugh"?) would all be things that would make me more likely to travel by bus.

I agree with most of this. One big problem I've often had is knowing where the heck I am when I don't know the area, and something that can be read from the back of the bus in time to hit the bell would be ideal. The worst place so far was Jersey, where there is no post, instead the stop is marked on the road. By the time you've worked out there's a stop, you're right on top of it.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps one option (not so much for London as people just tap their Oyster cards and don't say where they're going) is to tell the driver where you're going and pay the fare there and then - which might cover other buses. It would a lower cost than buying two tickets, and the machine knows where it is and can work things out automatically (even easier for buses that operate within zones).

Given the modern ticket machines we have on our buses (Uno, which also operate zones), it shouldn't be too hard to print a ticket that has my chosen destination/zone (even telling me where to change and what bus(es) to get perhaps) and I show that to the next driver. Job done.

I am not sure how that could work with a smartcard as you'd have to wait before tapping - but I suppose for Oyster, you could set the system to not charge (or give a discount) if the card is tapped again within a certain time. Or perhaps another validator at bus stops that can be tapped when you alight at a stop, so you won't be charged for xx minutes again (to account for what might be a wait for the next bus). Obviously, the system would only do that IF you'd already tapped on a bus previously within a certain time.

Certainly, we must have the technology today to do things better. I give the above option so that the standard flat rate for a single journey can remain unchanged - thus solving the issue of bus fares having to go up for those who won't need to use another bus or two.

 

[34D]

This is a problem, whether perception or reality, people are nervous about using a service that may be scrapped/ amended at short notice. We need to have some guaranteed lengths for timetables, so that people know that the link will still be there in a few months.

In West Yorkshire, bus operators by and large agree to a voluntary code of having changes only on four specific dates per year (though changes can occur on other dates if necessary).
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Indeed: several years ago Hampshire County Council introduced monitors showing live running information at several bus stops around Winchester. A few of these monitors no longer work, meaning the passenger is back at square 1 when it comes to live running information.

Have you tried reporting these faulty ones to the council?

 

[radamfi]

Time limited tickets have been around for decades and don’t require any fancy technology. Until the OV-Chipkaart smartcard replaced them in the Netherlands, the driver just used a hand stamp onto a strip ticket to denote the number of zones and the stamp told you the time of stamping. Now of course they use entry and exit validation. Belgium use a slightly more high tech system where you put the ticket into a machine on boarding and it checks whether the ticket is valid for the right zones and for the right time. Brussels now also has a smartcard system which only requires entry validation and still allows unlimited changes on a single trip, including between bus, tram and metro.

I suggested to Metrobus, who are normally quite progressive by UK standards, that they introduce a one hour ticket but they said they were worried about people returning in the same hour, meaning they would lose 50% of the revenue. But they could just impose a ban on return travel in the terms and conditions, like many other areas.

To be honest, as a country we allow the authorities and operators to get away with far too much. And, to be honest, I don’t think things will change as we would have had all the things that our neighbours take for granted a long time ago if there was any intention for us to have them. So the only way to enjoy such facilities is to leave the country.

Forget about lobbying our politicians and operators.