How many passengers have valid tickets when checked?

[Islineclear3_1]

With hindsight I wish I'd called back "how do you know I'm not exempt?", except he would probably have demanded proof.

And you would be quite within your rights to refuse

 

[trainophile]

And you would be quite within your rights to refuse

Well it's water under the bridge now, but I hope he is more amenable with other people should it happen again.

The other irony is that of the four or five people (turnover, that's about what was average) well spaced out in my carriage, only one wore a mask correctly for the entire journey, everyone else was removing them periodically (including me as I get too hot after a while), or not bothering at all.

 

[InOban]

I find that appalling. Get used to it. We're going to be wearing them until sometime next year.

 

[the sniper]

The ironic thing about the driver who had a go at me today is that his own mask was one of those with a valve, which are apparently more dangerous than no mask at all.

Seemingly many of these have closable valves. I don't think I'd want to wear one of those though, as listening to people tell me 'I think you'll find you're wearing the wrong mask' all day, every day, would be mind numbing...

 

[Ken H]

Some rail staff do enjoy behaving this way.

Having worked in various settings, such as in a hospital and in a school, I wouldn't treat a customer/patient/student this way. The only way I'd talk like that to a student is if they had not previously listened to being asked nicely on numerous occasions.

If you don't like working with the public, don't do a customer facing role, simple!

Anyway today, no ticket checks at all (except at one gateline at the very end of the journey) and that's on trains with Guards, 6 in total, on several TOCs.

Some staff were shouting at customers, lacking empathy and generally not acting in a manner that is consistent with a customer-oriented industry, while others being really nice and asking if people are okay. There is no consistency, and you get the full range, from great to terrible, because the rail industry has insufficient safeguards in its employment processes, but that's another topic really.

Very low loadings on the trains, as usual, worryingly so; I'll post in the relevant thread shortly (edit: done https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-busy-have-your-trains-been.207156/page-3#post-4742683 )

What is worrying, Yorkie, is that an experience like that to an occasional traveller could put them off rail travel. Really not good. Shops dont shout at their customers, why does Rail?

 

[HowardGWR]

What is worrying, Yorkie, is that an experience like that to an occasional traveller could put them off rail travel. Really not good. Shops don't shout at their customers, why does Rail?

Because they won't lose their jobs by doing so. We are told on this site that Blackpool staff have been doing this for over a decade with impunity.

 

[D1537]

Because they won't lose their jobs by doing so. We are told on this site that Blackpool staff have been doing this for over a decade with impunity.

Blackpool have been like that since the 1980s at least. I presume that the requisite personality defects are part of the interview process.

 

[Gems]

A good many of onboard railstaff are becoming slightly more nervous at the present. On the one hand we are seeing ever increasing numbers of passengers, which is good from a railway business point of view, we do want this. However what I personally don't want is a certain type of passenger, the drunk.
Drunks don't understand social distancing, they don't understand why they have to wear a face covering. I had a group of loudmouthed females on the train last night, masks off, (although looking at a few of them I would superglue a permanent mask to their faces for improvement purposes) But then they start singing and shouting like only a group of drunk middle aged women can. So I told them straight, "Put those face coverings on, stop shouting and spraying spit everywhere, or do us a favour and get a taxi" I was spoiling their fun according to one. "Well there is no fun in having a ventilator tube down your throat love" was my reply.
It makes me nervous. It makes me even more nervous when revenue is making a return and we are going to be at a greater risk, meanwhile those on the railway with office jobs can still hide away and draw up a work roster in their pyjamas. We are slipping back into the ' Keyworkers lives can be expendable again' kind of thinking. So if you see a member of railway staff get uppity about face coverings, just bear in mind we might be having a 9 hour shift of being exposed.

That said. I have a great deal of sympathy with those who are exempt. You can get lanyards and badges that show you are exempt. If you are, please consider it. If I see one I am going to be understanding and more than helpful to that passenger. Yes it is true, you don't have to explain your exemption reasons, but try and see it from our point of view, and consider it.

Now to the question the poster asked. I had a ticketless survey conducted on my train just the other day. I was expecting big numbers of ticketless people. I was quite surprised, there was just one clear fare dodger, two who didn't seem to understand that buying a ticket at Leeds could equal a penalty fare, and another who was so far spaced out I doubt he would know his name. Yes there are dodgers, but I am not seeing a mass increase.

 

[trainophile]

In the case of the drunken women if I was the TM I would have called BTP and have them removed at the next stop. A bit different from a lone middle aged female who has only just boarded an empty train at its starting point and not even sat down yet.

 

[43094]

Full grip out of KGX on the service I was on yesterday evening.

Knowing who it was, not surprised - don’t know if anyone was without a ticket or not, but they’d have been found quickly enough if so.

 

[Chriso]

Full grip out of KGX on the service I was on yesterday evening.

Knowing who it was, not surprised - don’t know if anyone was without a ticket or not, but they’d have been found quickly enough if so.

Was this on LNER or Great Northern?

 

[43094]

LNER.

 

[Chriso]

Interesting they must have resumed on train checks

 

[Scotrail314209]

I've heard quite a lot of people trying to short fare on the Ayrshire Coast line. There's no ticket checks on board, so people have been going to the excess fares window and, if they're remotely smart, asking for a ticket from Milliken Park (which has no facilities), or if they're not so much, from Paisley Gilmour St, which is often manually barriered. I know that the majority of people claiming to have come from Milliken are talking out of their backsides because it's the station I board at and at most half a dozen or so get on with me. so for an entire ticket queue to be asking for it is relatively unrealistic.

People travelling between Ardrossan/Saltcoats and Irvine also tend to not buy tickets as these stations are ungated. Fare evasion is rife on the Ayrshire Coast.

 

[Leyther]

On Friday (28/08/2020). I travelled up to Carlisle then purchased a hadrian's wall rail rover. Ticket only checked once by trans pennine on the way back from Carlisle.
Today on a merseyrail rail day saver announcement on a northern a northern train there be no ticket check though to already have purchased a ticket.
I over heard a person near me comment they didn't really need to have purchased a ticket for their journey and next time they won't be purchasing a ticket!!

 

[BJames]

A good many of onboard railstaff are becoming slightly more nervous at the present. On the one hand we are seeing ever increasing numbers of passengers, which is good from a railway business point of view, we do want this. However what I personally don't want is a certain type of passenger, the drunk.
Drunks don't understand social distancing, they don't understand why they have to wear a face covering. I had a group of loudmouthed females on the train last night, masks off, (although looking at a few of them I would superglue a permanent mask to their faces for improvement purposes) But then they start singing and shouting like only a group of drunk middle aged women can. So I told them straight, "Put those face coverings on, stop shouting and spraying spit everywhere, or do us a favour and get a taxi" I was spoiling their fun according to one. "Well there is no fun in having a ventilator tube down your throat love" was my reply.
It makes me nervous. It makes me even more nervous when revenue is making a return and we are going to be at a greater risk, meanwhile those on the railway with office jobs can still hide away and draw up a work roster in their pyjamas. We are slipping back into the ' Keyworkers lives can be expendable again' kind of thinking. So if you see a member of railway staff get uppity about face coverings, just bear in mind we might be having a 9 hour shift of being exposed.

That said. I have a great deal of sympathy with those who are exempt. You can get lanyards and badges that show you are exempt. If you are, please consider it. If I see one I am going to be understanding and more than helpful to that passenger. Yes it is true, you don't have to explain your exemption reasons, but try and see it from our point of view, and consider it.

Now to the question the poster asked. I had a ticketless survey conducted on my train just the other day. I was expecting big numbers of ticketless people. I was quite surprised, there was just one clear fare dodger, two who didn't seem to understand that buying a ticket at Leeds could equal a penalty fare, and another who was so far spaced out I doubt he would know his name. Yes there are dodgers, but I am not seeing a mass increase.

I completely understand your frustration and why you would get annoyed at groups acting up.

But there is no requirement to get a badge or lanyard to show you are exempt (I know you're not saying this, but the lanyards and badges are to make customers feel more comfortable if they wish, not to prove their exemption). Staff just need to ask if they are exempt or if they have a face covering. To treat passengers who are wearing lanyards and who are not wearing lanyards differently is not fair. (Note: I'm saying this as someone who is not exempt and wears their covering whilst on the train (albeit with reluctance) - I always assume those not wearing face coverings are exempt).

In terms of ticket checks and valid tickets, my London Overground station has no barriers. A few stations on this line also have no barriers, so if a survey was to be done on these trains I imagine quite a high proportion would be picked up as avoiding the fare. It used to be highly entertaining as I'd be in the front carriage, but I knew when inspectors got on carriage 4 as there was a steady stream of passengers walking between carriages to avoid them.

 

[43066]

So I told them straight, "Put those face coverings on, stop shouting and spraying spit everywhere, or do us a favour and get a taxi" I was spoiling their fun according to one. "Well there is no fun in having a ventilator tube down your throat love" was my reply.

I expect they will get a taxi next time, and quite possibly never use the railway again, after being spoken to like that!

Rail staff frequently get a pretty bad write up on this forum, sometimes deservedly so, and this sort of thing really doesn’t help with the railway’s image problem. Making sarcastic comments and being rude to people isn’t the way to go about attracting people back to the railway (and those people ultimately pay our wages).

People often choose to use public transport, rather than driving, precisely so that they can have a few drinks. I doubt the sight of a few middle aged women getting a bit merry and talking loudly (hardly “drunks”) would have batted an eyelid before the pandemic, and it shouldn’t now.

So if you see a member of railway staff get uppity about face coverings, just bear in mind we might be having a 9 hour shift of being exposed.

Rail staff shouldn’t be getting “uppity” about coverings - it’s not the job of staff to enforce these rules.

That said. I have a great deal of sympathy with those who are exempt. You can get lanyards and badges that show you are exempt. If you are, please consider it. If I see one I am going to be understanding and more than helpful to that passenger. Yes it is true, you don't have to explain your exemption reasons, but try and see it from our point of view, and consider it.

There’s absolutely no requirement to carry any form of exemption lanyard or badge. If someone tells you they’re exempt, you need to take that at face value.

 

[LowLevel]

I expect they will get a taxi next time, and quite possibly never use the railway again, after being spoken to like that!

Rail staff frequently get a pretty bad write up on this forum, sometimes deservedly so, and this sort of thing really doesn’t help with the railway’s image problem. Making sarcastic comments and being rude to people isn’t the way to go about attracting people back to the railway (and those people ultimately pay our wages).

People often choose to use public transport, rather than driving, precisely so that they can have a few drinks. I doubt the sight of a few middle aged women getting a bit merry and talking loudly (hardly “drunks”) would have batted an eyelid before the pandemic, and it shouldn’t now.



Rail staff shouldn’t be getting “uppity” about coverings - it’s not the job of staff to enforce these rules.



There’s absolutely no requirement to carry any form of exemption lanyard or badge. If someone tells you they’re exempt, you need to take that at face value.

To be fair you are somewhat isolated from the issue in the cab. We've had a nightmare of a pair of weekends with people quite literally kicking the living daylights out of each other over masks and groups of people setting up camp with massive crates of booze and bottles of spirits then getting lairy just like the "good old days".

Other people paying for tickets get irritated with this behaviour at the best of times. Now that a reasonable proportion of society also views it as directly putting their safety at risk, rightly or wrongly, it is repeatedly causing flash points and we are getting pretty pissed off with it all round.

Why should I go to change ends on a train to find tables flooded with beer, cans everywhere and disposable face masks abandoned floating in the mess to boot and then expect people to just ride back in it with some confidence that we are keeping the place clean to look after them?

We have a proportion of "customers" who behave like absolute arseholes at the best of times. They are well and truly back and as usual nobody is interested in doing anything about them. Would we notice if the gang of 10 lads getting on at Grantham with 4 crates of beer without tickets didn't come back for being offended? Probably not.

I do not wish to be locked in a 46 metre long tin can with people behaving like idiots and neither does anyone else. The difference is I am a fairly large person who can project a lot of confidence. I booked on yesterday to find one of our younger female guards in tears over the way she had been caught in the middle between rival groups on a train at a busy unmanned station. It is quite hard to let them just kill each other on a 15x.

I did not sign up to be a bare knuckle fighting referee between warring factions who support or disavow the Government's advice.

 

[Andy Pacer]

I'm confident I can guess the answer to this, but is there a higher likelihood of passengers without valid tickets during evenings than daytime?

 

[43066]

To be fair you are somewhat isolated from the issue in the cab.

Fair point. Trust me it’s best all round that I’m shut away from the general public .

We have a proportion of "customers" who behave like absolute arseholes at the best of times. They are well and truly back and as usual nobody is interested in doing anything about them. Would we notice if the gang of 10 lads getting on at Grantham with 4 crates of beer without tickets didn't come back for being offended? Probably not.

I do not wish to be locked in a 46 metre long tin can with people behaving like idiots and neither does anyone else. The difference is I am a fairly large person who can project a lot of confidence. I booked on yesterday to find one of our younger female guards in tears over the way she had been caught in the middle between rival groups on a train at a busy unmanned station. It is quite hard to let them just kill each other on a 15x.

I did not sign up to be a bare knuckle fighting referee between warring factions who support or disavow the Government's advice.

Sorry to hear that. For the record I agree the behaviour you describe above is totally out of order, and you absolutely shouldn’t have to stand for it. I’ve also witnessed appalling behaviour (and yes it usually involves alcohol). One I remember from my last place - a guy falling asleep on the last train, covered in his own vomit, swearing at and spitting on platform staff when they woke him up and told him there were no more trains.

I just think as staff we need to choose our battles, and only call out the truly bad behaviour. The behaviour described in the post I replied to previously - a few middle aged women being merry and a bit loud - is the kind of thing that wouldn’t have raised an eyebrow before March.

The reality is that you guys have been put into an extremely difficult position. The mask rules are no doubt making a difficult job a lot harder, along with the fact that a lot of people seem to be on a very short fuse at the moment because of the situation.

 

[2L70]

No wonder some are used to free rides when you go to the only working TVM and the Booking office is never open

 

[Sprinter107]

To be fair you are somewhat isolated from the issue in the cab. We've had a nightmare of a pair of weekends with people quite literally kicking the living daylights out of each other over masks and groups of people setting up camp with massive crates of booze and bottles of spirits then getting lairy just like the "good old days".

Other people paying for tickets get irritated with this behaviour at the best of times. Now that a reasonable proportion of society also views it as directly putting their safety at risk, rightly or wrongly, it is repeatedly causing flash points and we are getting pretty pissed off with it all round.

Why should I go to change ends on a train to find tables flooded with beer, cans everywhere and disposable face masks abandoned floating in the mess to boot and then expect people to just ride back in it with some confidence that we are keeping the place clean to look after them?

We have a proportion of "customers" who behave like absolute arseholes at the best of times. They are well and truly back and as usual nobody is interested in doing anything about them. Would we notice if the gang of 10 lads getting on at Grantham with 4 crates of beer without tickets didn't come back for being offended? Probably not.

I do not wish to be locked in a 46 metre long tin can with people behaving like idiots and neither does anyone else. The difference is I am a fairly large person who can project a lot of confidence. I booked on yesterday to find one of our younger female guards in tears over the way she had been caught in the middle between rival groups on a train at a busy unmanned station. It is quite hard to let them just kill each other on a 15x.

I did not sign up to be a bare knuckle fighting referee between warring factions who support or disavow the Government's advice.

The situation you have just described is becoming an everyday occurrence. I've worked a,tr

To be fair you are somewhat isolated from the issue in the cab. We've had a nightmare of a pair of weekends with people quite literally kicking the living daylights out of each other over masks and groups of people setting up camp with massive crates of booze and bottles of spirits then getting lairy just like the "good old days".

Other people paying for tickets get irritated with this behaviour at the best of times. Now that a reasonable proportion of society also views it as directly putting their safety at risk, rightly or wrongly, it is repeatedly causing flash points and we are getting pretty pissed off with it all round.

Why should I go to change ends on a train to find tables flooded with beer, cans everywhere and disposable face masks abandoned floating in the mess to boot and then expect people to just ride back in it with some confidence that we are keeping the place clean to look after them?

We have a proportion of "customers" who behave like absolute arseholes at the best of times. They are well and truly back and as usual nobody is interested in doing anything about them. Would we notice if the gang of 10 lads getting on at Grantham with 4 crates of beer without tickets didn't come back for being offended? Probably not.

I do not wish to be locked in a 46 metre long tin can with people behaving like idiots and neither does anyone else. The difference is I am a fairly large person who can project a lot of confidence. I booked on yesterday to find one of our younger female guards in tears over the way she had been caught in the middle between rival groups on a train at a busy unmanned station. It is quite hard to let them just kill each other on a 15x.

I did not sign up to be a bare knuckle fighting referee between warring factions who support or disavow the Government's advice.

The situation that you describe above is becoming an everyday occurrence. Ive just worked a train into Birmingham this evening, and there were tables with beer and other stuff tipped all over them, and food stuffs ground into the seats. Also, many discarded face masks.
As we cannot enforce the wearing of face masks, I wouldnt even attempt to try, and I dont really want to know why people are exempt, its none of my business. However, it doesn't stop passengers banging my window demanding I do something about it, and the abuse I get when trying to explain that I'm unable to enforce the wearing of face masks.

 

[bramling]

Fair point. Trust me it’s best all round that I’m shut away from the general public .



Sorry to hear that. For the record I agree the behaviour you describe above is totally out of order, and you absolutely shouldn’t have to stand for it. I’ve also witnessed appalling behaviour (and yes it usually involves alcohol). One I remember from my last place - a guy falling asleep on the last train, covered in his own vomit, swearing at and spitting on platform staff when they woke him up and told him there were no more trains.

I just think as staff we need to choose our battles, and only call out the truly bad behaviour. The behaviour described in the post I replied to previously - a few middle aged women being merry and a bit loud - is the kind of thing that wouldn’t have raised an eyebrow before March.

The reality is that you guys have been put into an extremely difficult position. The mask rules are no doubt making a difficult job a lot harder, along with the fact that a lot of people seem to be on a very short fuse at the moment because of the situation.

None of this exactly encourages one to go by train!

I’m away for a couple of days from tomorrow, first really decent leisure outing since February. Exactly the sort of trip where train would have been quite suitable. Car it is.

The powers that be need to get a grip of all this, masks and all, as it is making rail travel an extremely unattractive proposition.

 

[MCSHF007]

"A few middle aged women being a bit merry and a bit loud" sounds like an absolutely awful experience for fellow passengers. A reminder of how deeply unpleasant train travel can be (and frequently is).

Very glad I haven't been on a train since February if that sort of riff-raff are back already.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

if that sort of riff-raff are back already.

I think you'll find that in a few places, they never left.

 

[43066]

None of this exactly encourages one to go by train!

I’m away for a couple of days from tomorrow, first really decent leisure outing since February. Exactly the sort of trip where train would have been quite suitable. Car it is.

The powers that be need to get a grip of all this, masks and all, as it is making rail travel an extremely unattractive proposition.

Agreed, and so do (some) staff members, as we have been discussing on another thread.

"A few middle aged women being a bit merry and a bit loud" sounds like an absolutely awful experience for fellow passengers. A reminder of how deeply unpleasant train travel can be (and frequently is).

Very glad I haven't been on a train since February if that sort of riff-raff are back already.

All I can say is, if middle aged ladies having a few drinks bothers you, you’d get an almighty shock if you visited some of the parts of the railway I’ve worked on!

 

[Gems]

Agreed, and so do (some) staff members, as we have been discussing on another thread.



All I can say is, if middle aged ladies having a few drinks bothers you, you’d get an almighty shock if you visited some of the parts of the railway I’ve worked on!

Agreed, and so do (some) staff members, as we have been discussing on another thread.



All I can say is, if middle aged ladies having a few drinks bothers you, you’d get an almighty shock if you visited some of the parts of the railway I’ve worked on!

We are in the early stages of a rise of transmission of a potentially deadly virus again. If it hasn't escaped your notice, singing, shouting, not wearing a mask, and failure of any kind of social distancing within a personal bubble are leading causes of spread. If you are happy having middle aged drunk loudmouths acting this way in your presence, great. But many passengers quite like the idea of being able to continue breathing. Conscientious rail staff will continue to look after the best interests of those who wish to travel safely. There is no place on the trains at the moment for drunks having a midlife crisis.

 

[mmh]

We are in the early stages of a rise of transmission of a potentially deadly virus again. If it hasn't escaped your notice, singing, shouting, not wearing a mask, and failure of any kind of social distancing within a personal bubble are leading causes of spread.

You have examples which lead you to that hypothesis?

If you are happy having middle aged drunk loudmouths acting this way in your presence, great. But many passengers quite like the idea of being able to continue breathing. Conscientious rail staff will continue to look after the best interests of those who wish to travel safely. There is no place on the trains at the moment for drunks having a midlife crisis.

I'd say there's no place in a customer service job for such sanctimonious hysteria. If you're genuinely so scared, I don't understand why you'd put yourself in a position where you might not "carry on breathing" (I mean really, that's the sort of hyperbole that helps nobody). Personally, I'd be perfectly happy if you refused to carry out customer facing duties due to the "risk" except essential and safety critical duties. Why not suggest that? It sounds like your passengers might prefer it.

 

[flitwickbeds]

None of this exactly encourages one to go by train!

I’m away for a couple of days from tomorrow, first really decent leisure outing since February. Exactly the sort of trip where train would have been quite suitable. Car it is.

The powers that be need to get a grip of all this, masks and all, as it is making rail travel an extremely unattractive proposition.

But it's all nonsensical, really, isn't it.

You say you're going on a train for leisure rather than as an essential journey. Fine, you're more than welcome to do that. But if another way you choose to partake in leisure activities is, say, going to a busy bar on a Friday night then you put yourself at the same (more?) risk but you would not be breaking the law by not wearing a mask.

In what world does it make sense that I could travel on a DOO train where it's just me and the driver at extreme opposite ends of a 12 car train, and be obliged by law to wear a mask... to travel to a pub where I don't even have to comply with 2m distancing, much less wear a mask?

 

[DorkingMain]

I have to admit, reading the post about the middle-aged ladies being a bit loud and the member's response did make me rather sad. Maybe I'm out of touch as a guard but I wouldn't dream of talking to a member of the public that way, even if they had no ticket.

I've very much always used the "British police" method of dealing with people - gentle voice, calm but assertive. Making it clear to them you're not backing down but not showing any sort of aggression. 9/10 conflicts on the railway are either started or escalated by staff, sad as it is to say. Nobody's going to thank you for getting punched over a £5 ticket.