How many passengers have valid tickets when checked?

[2L70]

Flipping the coin here from the split off thread in the Trip planning section.

Guards/TMs/Conductors, when you carry out a check how many passengers have valid tickets for travel?

I know @bunnahabhain and @LowLevel from here and they’re consistent with their checks.

 

[the sniper]

It'll vary wildly depending on line, even within a TOC. I worked routes in a penalty fare area where you could expect 40% to 50% of around 60 passengers onboard to be without tickets, 90% of whom would pay when challenged. On the same day I'd work another route where 100% of around 300 passengers onboard would all have tickets.

 

[mmh]

Something nearing 100% won't have a ticket at my local station, at least on their outward journey. I never do.

 

[185]

95-98% valid.
1% wrong operator.
1% wrong advance.
<0.1% deliberate, TIR worthy, in the bog, or no money no ticket.

Further 1-2% (of 'valid') tend to come and politely ask first too, mostly allowed on.

 

[route101]

How strict are guards when someone has wrong advance for service or operator?

 

[Starmill]

How strict are guards when someone has wrong advance for service or operator?

It varies depending on the situation and the person. Under normal circumstances, if the ticket is for the wrong train but of the same operator, the procedure is to sell the correct ticket as a replacement. If it is for a different operator, a full price ticket or if permitted by the rules and the guard is an authorised collector, a Penalty Fare. If the ticket is only being used at a barred time, an excess fare is payable.

 

[bunnahabhain]

How strict are guards when someone has wrong advance for service or operator?

At the moment I'm not fussed as long as there is a reasonably valid ticket held for the journey being made. Under normal circumstances I'm generally somewhat more strict unless asked prior to boarding.

In terms of tickets held, long distance services especially where the opportunity to purchase before travel is available, the percentage is high 90s. Local/urban routes are where fare evasion and fare avoidance are far greater and on some trains its been as low as 0% which was quickly improved with suggestions of purchasing an open ticket online for the following service.

Interestingly I've also had a large number of "I thought it was free" comments from youths, and "I thought it was free for workers" from some slightly older people.

 

[sjoh]

Curious to know whether "I didn't want to touch the self service ticket machine due to infection risk" has been a recent excuse!

 

[yorkie]

How strict are guards when someone has wrong advance for service or operator?

On my recent journey from a more sensible country, I arrived into the airport early; I showed both tickets to the Guard and offered to alight at Manchester Victoria if they wanted me to await my booked train one hour later. The Guard was happy for me to remain on board

The same Guard did announce that Northern tickets were not valid, despite the rail industry agreeing to ticket acceptance

I also had an LNER Guard recently state that other companies tickets were not being accepted, again despite the ticket acceptance we've been told is in place; I'm informed this Guard has been known to cross off his own colleagues boxes, and deny travel via Peterborough on a "via Peterborough" fare, so maybe that's not surprising

Curious to know whether "I didn't want to touch the self service ticket machine due to infection risk" has been a recent excuse!

It has, on at least one occasion, and it wasn't accepted:

Ticket machine covered in bodily fluids, penalty fare given

Hi there, was wondering if someone could help me see if it is worth to contest this penalty fair. So last week I was using a transport for wales service to get into Cardiff, from a relatively small, 1 platform, 1 ticket machine station. At the station, when I went to go purchase my ticket, I...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[DorkingMain]

From experience, the answer you'll get for this will vary wildly based on location - the type of people who travel, whether there are barriers/ticketing facilities at the stations on a line, etc.

When I've gripped in the past - almost everyone has a ticket. Occasional person who seems to think their Oyster card will take them halfway across England, occasional person who buys a ticket for the wrong TOC, occasional group of kids who are only travelling for ****s and giggles.

 

[sjoh]

It has, on at least one occasion, and it wasn't accepted:

Ticket machine covered in bodily fluids, penalty fare given

Hi there, was wondering if someone could help me see if it is worth to contest this penalty fair. So last week I was using a transport for wales service to get into Cardiff, from a relatively small, 1 platform, 1 ticket machine station. At the station, when I went to go purchase my ticket, I...

www.railforums.co.uk

Interesting. I'm in two minds about it. On one hand, it's obviously an easy cop-out excuse. On the other hand, in the edge cases where it could well be the case, is it fair to expect people to knowingly put themselves at risk in this way, especially if they're unable to buy tickets another way (unable to use internet, phone dead etc)? Do we expect people to carry around disposable gloves for such instances?
I don't know!

EDIT: Having read the thread in question, I think it's quite obvious that this PF should never have been charged, and could be fairly swiftly and successfully legally challenged.
Not sure about the situation more in general tho.

 

[RPI]

As others have said it depends on the route, time and day.
The Exmouth/Barnstaple I find more without tickets but the majority are from stations with no facilities, I find more ticket less travel at weekends and evenings but it's not unusual to to find that everyone on the train has a valid ticket. Im lucky that I don't really have to deal with many "TOC only" tickets in my area, the odd "XC only" Advance and 99% of the time they're chancing it and happily pay up when challenged.
The main "fraud" I'm finding these days is refunded mobile tickets.

 

[Horizon22]

Repeating others but my experience has varied wildly on route. Little shuttles in my experience where were people would "chance" it and you could definitely grab a few easy fares. Mainlines into London you'd be looking at 95-100% compliance during peak, reducing slightly in the off-peak. The further you get away from 'gateline territory', the more chance you have of finding ticketless travellers - which is normally when guards are more out and about anyway.

 

[jamiearmley]

On my recent journey from a more sensible country, I arrived into the airport early; I showed both tickets to the Guard and offered to alight at Manchester Victoria if they wanted me to await my booked train one hour later. The Guard was happy for me to remain on board

The same Guard did announce that Northern tickets were not valid, despite the rail industry agreeing to ticket acceptance

I also had an LNER Guard recently state that other companies tickets were not being accepted, again despite the ticket acceptance we've been told is in place; I'm informed this Guard has been known to cross off his own colleagues boxes, and deny travel via Peterborough on a "via Peterborough" fare, so maybe that's not surprising

It has, on at least one occasion, and it wasn't accepted:

Ticket machine covered in bodily fluids, penalty fare given

Hi there, was wondering if someone could help me see if it is worth to contest this penalty fair. So last week I was using a transport for wales service to get into Cardiff, from a relatively small, 1 platform, 1 ticket machine station. At the station, when I went to go purchase my ticket, I...

www.railforums.co.uk

Regarding ticket acceptance, we have been told it only applies during disruption : i.e. if another operators service is delayed or cancelled. You can't go and buy a cheaper toc only ticket and then choose not to use that toc if that toc has a service available. Maybe that's the angle the guard was coming from on tpe?

Its a moot point in any case, my toc aren't currently engaging with revenue activities. From my chats with regular travellers, seasons have been refunded, and travel is now free. Fair enough : can't blame them one bit.

We have been advised cross acceptance ends in any case 7 sept across the board.

It's interesting to see the different approaches taken : currently, i personally would avoid all unnecessary potential conflict on revenue matters.

Stay safe folks!

 

[yorkie]

Regarding ticket acceptance, we have been told it only applies during disruption : i.e. if another operators service is delayed or cancelled. You can't go and buy a cheaper toc only ticket and then choose not to use that toc if that toc has a service available. Maybe that's the angle the guard was coming from on tpe?

That's not my reading of it; in any case there is nowhere near the level of service on Northern right now compared to normal. It's really difficult to a journey such as York to Nottingham on Northern only right now.

It's interesting to see the different approaches taken : currently, i personally would avoid all unnecessary potential conflict on revenue matters.

Hmm, the TPE & LNER Guards I had recently clearly have a very different view, but your view sounds far more sensible

 

[DorkingMain]

That's not my reading of it; in any case there is nowhere near the level of service on Northern right now compared to normal. It's really difficult to a journey such as York to Nottingham on Northern only right now.

Hmm, the TPE & LNER Guards I had recently clearly have a very different view, but your view sounds far more sensible

There are unfortunately some members of staff who would risk anything for a few quid in commission. They are also the same staff that end up in conflict situations, getting complaints and other trouble.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Of the times I've travelled with a particular TOC, I have not had my ticket checked. Nor have I seen the conductor walk through the train

 

[43066]

They are also the same staff that end up in conflict situations, getting complaints and other trouble.

Yep. It’s amazing how often trouble seems to find certain staff members!

 

[gnolife]

I've heard quite a lot of people trying to short fare on the Ayrshire Coast line. There's no ticket checks on board, so people have been going to the excess fares window and, if they're remotely smart, asking for a ticket from Milliken Park (which has no facilities), or if they're not so much, from Paisley Gilmour St, which is often manually barriered. I know that the majority of people claiming to have come from Milliken are talking out of their backsides because it's the station I board at and at most half a dozen or so get on with me. so for an entire ticket queue to be asking for it is relatively unrealistic.

 

[trainophile]

No-one seems interested in whether you have a ticket now, however step on a train with a bare face due to sheer forgetfulness and they are on you like a ton of bricks. Happened to me today, absolutely no intention of not masking up but I just forgot. The driver was out of his cab at virtually every stop, walking down the platform and peering in. It's quite intimidating.

 

[43066]

No-one seems interested in whether you have a ticket now, however step on a train with a bare face due to sheer forgetfulness and they are on you like a ton of bricks. Happened to me today, absolutely no intention of not masking up but I just forgot. The driver was out of his cab at virtually every stop, walking down the platform and peering in. It's quite intimidating.

Where was this?

Sorry but I find it very hard to imagine any train driver is doing this. That’s going to cause enormous delays and really, really is not their job.

As for being on you like a ton of bricks, I’ve been using London transport daily, and it’s weeks since anyone has asked me about my absence of a covering.

 

[trainophile]

Northern on the Leeds to Wigan Wallgate this afternoon. Probably rather not say what timings but they are hourly. I admit I didn't have a face covering on when I boarded, and I can't even remember why I took it off at some point making my way through the station - maybe the one way system had something to do with it. The driver shouted down the carriage "have you got a face covering?", and only then did I realise I wasn't wearing it. I hastily dug it out of my bag and put it on while he watched, then he called "you should have it on before getting on the train". I felt quite mortified but there wasn't anyone else in the carriage so not too embarrassing. He got out at various places, probably four or five times, there seems to be a fair bit of slack built into the timetable on that run.

 

[43066]

Northern on the Leeds to Wigan Wallgate this afternoon. Probably rather not say what timings but they are hourly. I admit I didn't have a face covering on when I boarded, and I can't even remember why I took it off at some point making my way to the station. The driver shouted down the carriage "have you got a face covering?", and only then did I realise I wasn't wearing it. I hastily dug it out of my bag and put it on while he watched, then he called "you should have it on before getting on the train". I felt quite mortified but there wasn't anyone else in the carriage so not too embarrassing. He got out at various places, probably four or five times, there seems to be a fair bit of slack built into the timetable on that run.

Driver or guard?

Either way, you should complain about that - completely idiotic behaviour - and not at all what they should be doing.

 

[trainophile]

Apologies for taking thread off topic. I never had a ticket check all day, on four trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2020 ==

Driver or guard?

Either way, you should complain about that - completely idiotic behaviour - and not at all what they should be doing.

I think it was the driver as I was in the front coach and he was in the front cab. Saying that, I never saw a guard though.

 

[43066]

Apologies for taking thread off topic. I never had a ticket check all day, on four trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2020 ==



I think it was the driver as I was in the front coach and he was in the front cab. Saying that, I never saw a guard though.

Very sorry to hear that. It’s bullying, plain and simple.

 

[FQ]

No-one seems interested in whether you have a ticket now, however step on a train with a bare face due to sheer forgetfulness and they are on you like a ton of bricks. Happened to me today, absolutely no intention of not masking up but I just forgot. The driver was out of his cab at virtually every stop, walking down the platform and peering in. It's quite intimidating.

Northern on the Leeds to Wigan Wallgate this afternoon. Probably rather not say what timings but they are hourly. I admit I didn't have a face covering on when I boarded, and I can't even remember why I took it off at some point making my way through the station - maybe the one way system had something to do with it. The driver shouted down the carriage "have you got a face covering?", and only then did I realise I wasn't wearing it. I hastily dug it out of my bag and put it on while he watched, then he called "you should have it on before getting on the train". I felt quite mortified but there wasn't anyone else in the carriage so not too embarrassing. He got out at various places, probably four or five times, there seems to be a fair bit of slack built into the timetable on that run.

When I read your first post (before the second one) I immediately thought Northern - I've seen drivers on there doing the same and having a go at someone with an exemption. Only on Northern as usual

 

[yorkie]

Some rail staff do enjoy behaving this way.

Having worked in various settings, such as in a hospital and in a school, I wouldn't treat a customer/patient/student this way. The only way I'd talk like that to a student is if they had not previously listened to being asked nicely on numerous occasions.

If you don't like working with the public, don't do a customer facing role, simple!

Anyway today, no ticket checks at all (except at one gateline at the very end of the journey) and that's on trains with Guards, 6 in total, on several TOCs.

Some staff were shouting at customers, lacking empathy and generally not acting in a manner that is consistent with a customer-oriented industry, while others being really nice and asking if people are okay. There is no consistency, and you get the full range, from great to terrible, because the rail industry has insufficient safeguards in its employment processes, but that's another topic really.

Very low loadings on the trains, as usual, worryingly so; I'll post in the relevant thread shortly (edit: done https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/how-busy-have-your-trains-been.207156/page-3#post-4742683 )

 

[43066]

If you don't like working with the public, don't do a customer facing role, simple!

I find it even more unbelievable that drivers (ie not customer facing) are actively seeking out conflict of this type. These people need to be reported - simple as that.

 

[DorkingMain]

I find it even more unbelievable that drivers (ie not customer facing) are actively seeking out conflict of this type. These people need to be reported - simple as that.

Apart from anything, bolshy drivers undermine the role of the guard. Imagine walking through to check tickets only to find your driver has been mouthing off at people and put them in a bad mood.

I remember one occasion, many moons ago when I was a guard, my driver buzzed me up "Here guard, there's some bloody scrotes in Coach 2 causing trouble". I took that as "Go and deal with it" but when I got down there at the next station I found him out of the cab arguing with them himself, and not in a very diplomatic way. They seemed like normal teenagers - maybe a bit loud but doing absolutely nothing wrong.

He was one of those "I've been on the trains since you were in nappies" types. Anyway, I'll stop wittering on lol

 

[trainophile]

The ironic thing about the driver who had a go at me today is that his own mask was one of those with a valve, which are apparently more dangerous than no mask at all. I'll let it go as he might have been having a bad day, or going home to a relative in the extremely vulnerable category. There are better ways of enforcing the rules though. With hindsight I wish I'd called back "how do you know I'm not exempt?", except he would probably have demanded proof.