How long will the Class 158 & 159 soldier on for?

[Snow1964]

It's nearly five years between the oldest and youngest vehicles, though.

On units 33-37 years old, that's only about 13%

I wouldn't be surprised if replacing all GWR 158, 165, 166 and SWR 159 will take 2-3 years. So could reduce the difference to nearer 6% in age.

OK they won't be withdrawn in strict age order, but instead based on condition, or needing big overhauls or repairs. But however it is looked at the age difference is not significant.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Oct 2025 ==

The 158s and 159s are regional trains.

They have lasted long enough for new generation regional trains to be developed, so now more a case of getting act together and ordering.

As an example of how regional trains have moved on, Alstom is showing its 124mph regional Corradia Streams for Italy at Milan show

Alstom and Trenitalia present 200 km/h regional train

Trenitalia and Alstom have unveiled a new Coradia Stream regional train capable of reaching 200 km/h at the opening of Expo Ferroviaria 2025 in Milan.

www.railwaypro.com

Stangely the capacity and length is virtually identical to the proposed 29 express sets for Transpennine, so could it be made to UK gauge and become a standard design. Presumably Derby could assemble Coradia Streams (with all the well tested parts and software) as potential regional replacements

 

[FrontSideBus]

IMO 158's just need a really good refurb to the body and running gear, maybe even a re-power with modern engines and perhaps a new HVAC system.
They are still quite pleasant trains to ride on as a passenger. Surely doing that is far cheaper than a fleet of new trains!

 

[The exile]

IMO 158's just need a really good refurb to the body and running gear, maybe even a re-power with modern engines and perhaps a new HVAC system.
They are still quite pleasant trains to ride on as a passenger. Surely doing that is far cheaper than a fleet of new trains!

No “perhaps” about the new HVAC system.

 

[Minnietheminx]

IMO 158's just need a really good refurb to the body and running gear, maybe even a re-power with modern engines and perhaps a new HVAC system.
They are still quite pleasant trains to ride on as a passenger. Surely doing that is far cheaper than a fleet of new trains!

I have a soft spot for the 158s. Quieter than the 156s on the northern section of the Cumbria Coast line and more comfortable - and with better luggage options - than the 195s in Yorkshire.

Talking of 156s - what will Northern replace the 156s with, as there are restrictions on the Cumbria Coast?

 

[Zomboid]

IMO 158's just need a really good refurb to the body and running gear, maybe even a re-power with modern engines and perhaps a new HVAC system.
They are still quite pleasant trains to ride on as a passenger. Surely doing that is far cheaper than a fleet of new trains!

I only have experience of 159s, and the ones I experienced seemed ok from my seat, but the thing with old machines is keeping them going. You'd basically need to replace everything other than the body shell to keep them in service for much longer, and that'll take a long time and cost a lot of money. And something has to run the services whilst that happens (probably won't be the 350/2s).

They've given good service over the years, but it won't cost any more to buy new at this point.

 

[david1212]

I agree with the above post. A new fleet is needed with the build starting ASAP.

In the interim a fleet gradually reducing in numbers can be kept in service by cannibalisation. This reduction can not start though until either the new fleet starts to come into service or substitutes are found.

This applies to all of the 15x and 165/166 sets.

 

[D365]

In the interim a fleet gradually reducing in numbers can be kept in service by cannibalisation. This reduction can not start though until either the new fleet starts to come into service or substitutes are found.

Given that the majority of Class 15x vehicles remain in passenger traffic to this day. Are you suggesting that there is difficultly in obtaining spare parts?

 

[Helvellyn]

Any life extension for the 158s/158s should have been in the early 2010s. Possibly strip back to bare shells, overhaul things like bogies, fit new engines, air-con, lighting and seats, full re-wire, etc.

The original engines could possibly have then gone into 156s/153s/150s after an overhaul to possibly allow them to become 90mph units.

But now? Anything being done is just like an EMR overhaul and facelift to extend the unit life but that's likely the last of it.

 

[dk1]

Any life extension for the 158s/158s should have been in the early 2010s. Possibly strip back to bare shells, overhaul things like bogies, fit new engines, air-con, lighting and seats, full re-wire, etc.

The original engines could possibly have then gone into 156s/153s/150s after an overhaul to possibly allow them to become 90mph units.

But now? Anything being done is just like an EMR overhaul and facelift to extend the unit life but that's likely the last of it.

EMR have only done a cosmetic refresh to their 158s which should take them through to the early 2030s.

 

[skyhigh]

The original engines could possibly have then gone into 156s/153s/150s after an overhaul to possibly allow them to become 90mph units.

The engines aren't the limiting factor - the tread brakes are, as far as I remember. The engines fitted to 150/153 are already the same ones as most 158s.

 

[Helvellyn]

The engines aren't the limiting factor - the tread brakes are, as far as I remember. The engines fitted to 150/153 are already the same ones as most 158s.

I forgot about the tread brakes, but the Sprinter/Super Sprinters are fitted with 285hp engines versus 350hp on the majority of 158s, or 400hp on 158873-158872 and the 159/0s.

 

[skyhigh]

I forgot about the tread brakes, but the Sprinter/Super Sprinters are fitted with 285hp engines versus 350hp on the majority of 158s, or 400hp on 158873-158872 and the 159/0s.

Sorry, remembered that they are mostly Cummins 855 but forgot that they are different power outputs...

 

[JonathanH]

Sorry, remembered that they are mostly Cummins 855 but forgot that they are different power outputs...

Previous informed postings have indicated that all the 159s have engines rated at 350hp now - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/swr-refurbishing-class-158-and-159.275269/#post-6985563

 

[FrontSideBus]

Were the Perkins powered ones any better or worse than the Cummins?

 

[ScottGallagher]

I have a soft spot for the 158s. Quieter than the 156s on the northern section of the Cumbria Coast line and more comfortable - and with better luggage options - than the 195s in Yorkshire.

Talking of 156s - what will Northern replace the 156s with, as there are restrictions on the Cumbria Coast?

Most likely 2 car 195 sets id imagine

 

[supervc-10]

The 158/159 will undoubtedly go down as a great design, one that's provided years of great service with still one of the best rides on the network. But they're no spring chickens and they absolutely need replacement, not tarting up. They're going to end up at 40 years old, which is impressive for any train going though the quite intensive use most 158/159s have had.

 

[bramling]

The 158/159 will undoubtedly go down as a great design, one that's provided years of great service with still one of the best rides on the network. But they're no spring chickens and they absolutely need replacement, not tarting up. They're going to end up at 40 years old, which is impressive for any train going though the quite intensive use most 158/159s have had.

I wouldn’t say the design is *that* great. The original interior was very cramped, perhaps driven by a desire to cram as much into a 23m vehicle as possible as part of the 3 for 2 policy of the time. Then from an auxiliary point of view some of the systems seem temperamental, not least the air conditioning. What’s also happened is they’ve found themselves on duties they weren’t really built for, in particular stopping services.

Personal opinion, but I’d say the 170 was a better concept, albeit with its own set of niggles.

 

[dk1]

Were the Perkins powered ones any better or worse than the Cummins?

I didn’t think so. I thought that’s why the Perkins ones got phased out.

 

[FrontSideBus]

I didn’t think so. I thought that’s why the Perkins ones got phased out.

Quite a lot of the TFW units have Perkins engines still.

 

[43096]

I didn’t think so. I thought that’s why the Perkins ones got phased out.

None of the Perkins sets have been phased out.

 

[dk1]

Quite a lot of the TFW units have Perkins engines still.

That’s something I never knew. I always assumed after all the bad publicity and unreliability they were replaced with Cummins engines during the 1990s.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I didn’t think so. I thought that’s why the Perkins ones got phased out.

It's the 400hp Cummins engines that have been (largely if not entirely) phased out in favour of the more widespread 350hp versions. AIUI because what little advantage they gave was outweighed by the disadvantages of having two different types.

 

[tfw756rider]

Quite a lot of the TFW units have Perkins engines still.

That’s something I never knew. I always assumed after all the bad publicity and unreliability they were replaced with Cummins engines during the 1990s.

158815-158862 (unit numbers as built) were fitted with Perkins 2006-TWH engines and retain the same model of engines, so all of the Transport for Wales 158s (and some East Midlands Railway and Northern 158s) have the Perkins engines rather than Cummins.

On Perkins-engined 158s, "Perkins 2000 Series" can actually be visible on the engines, depending on which way round the unit is and if you see it "non-platform-obscured".

All 165s and 166s were also built with Perkins 2006-TWH engines and retain the same model of engines.

 

[dk1]

It's the 400hp Cummins engines that have been (largely if not entirely) phased out in favour of the more widespread 350hp versions. AIUI because what little advantage they gave was outweighed by the disadvantages of having two different types.

158815-158862 (unit numbers as built) were fitted with Perkins 2006-TWH engines and retain the same model of engines, so all of the Transport for Wales 158s (and some East Midlands Railway and Northern 158s) have the Perkins engines rather than Cummins.

On Perkins-engined 158s, "Perkins 2000 Series" can actually be visible on the engines, depending on which way round the unit is and if you see it "non-platform-obscured".

All 165s and 166s were also built with Perkins 2006-TWH engines and retain the same model of engines.

Thank you both.

 

[KevinBrum12]

I wouldn’t say the design is *that* great. The original interior was very cramped, perhaps driven by a desire to cram as much into a 23m vehicle as possible as part of the 3 for 2 policy of the time. Then from an auxiliary point of view some of the systems seem temperamental, not least the air conditioning. What’s also happened is they’ve found themselves on duties they weren’t really built for, in particular stopping services.

Personal opinion, but I’d say the 170 was a better concept, albeit with its own set of niggles.

The 158/159 fleet were not a great design and were conceived at a time when the Provincial Sector were trying to raise the quality of its long-distance operation while trying to cut costs; the alternative would have been waiting for hand me downs from InterCity which would not have delivered the cost saving or passenger revenue uplift the 158's did. They've done a job they've had to do on the Regional Routes but that work has gone and they are coming to the end of their natural service life.

I do wonder if one of the good news announcements in the budget (and we know there won't be many) will be a commitment for a new regional fleet, with a commitment for the first trains being in service by 2029/30. With it being the 200th anniversary of the railway some good news for UK train manufacturing would be welcome.

 

[D365]

I do wonder if one of the good news announcements in the budget (and we know there won't be many) will be a commitment for a new regional fleet, with a commitment for the first trains being in service by 2029/30. With it being the 200th anniversary of the railway some good news for UK train manufacturing would be welcome.

A new regional fleet… for which operator(s)?

Bearing in mind that Northern is the next operator in line for new trains, and even under that exercise the first trains to be delivered will be EMUs for newly electrified TransPennine services.

 

[dk1]

A new regional fleet… for which operator(s)?

Bearing in mind that Northern is the next operator in line for new trains, and even under that exercise the first trains to be delivered will be EMUs for newly electrified TransPennine services.

There’s a very good article about the proposed Northern fleet renewal in this months Modern Railways.

 

[Xavi]

The 158/159 fleet were not a great design

Given the budget available at the time they have been a superb train and huge success.

 

[Helvellyn]

Given the budget available at the time they have been a superb train and huge success.

Indeed. It's a shame the recession of the early 1990s forced Regional Railways to divest what should have been 158873-158894 to NSE.

If I recall the 400hp units were intended for the Marches services, so it's likely 158863-155894 would have all been Canton based, with Perkins engined 155815-155862 all Crown Point based. Think that would have seen 158701-158814 then split simply between ScotRail (HA) and Regional Railways North East (HT/NL).

 

[Mikey C]

Both the 158/9 and the 166s which came soon after were built as 90mph stock. Was there a reason why this top speed was chosen, rather than 100mph, which was standard for "express" EMUs like the 317s etc by that stage?