How long will the Class 158 & 159 soldier on for?

[Train wasp]

Class 158 and 159 have now been around for a considerable amount of time.

From memory, 158s were built between 1989 and 1992 and 159s were with between 1992 and 1993.

I wonder how many more years before we see these units withdraw from service, or will they soldier on for many more years, like 205 and 207 units did?

Thanks

 

[Mollman]

Class 158 and 159 have now been around for a considerable amount of time. From memory 158s were built between 1989 and 1992 and 159s were with between 1992 and 1993. I wonder how many more years before we see these units withdraw from service or will they solider on for many more years like 205 and 207 units did.

The short answer is yes, especially if procurement processes take as long as the current ones at Northern are taking.

EMR are keeping theirs with no concrete plan to replace, Northern haven't included 158 replacement in their new stock procurement and ScotRail and GWR seem to be going nowhere replacing their units.

Only TfW are actively replacing 158s which have an uncertain future but are likely to be in at least short term demand. SWR are talking about replacing 158s and 159s with bi-mode units but have got no further than that.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

SWR have been playing around with the idea of putting batteries on 450s, which would probably see the 159s off (to scrap or to somewhere else is uncertain).

Northern's 158s will be replaced as part of the ongoing tender for replacement,
TfW's are getting being replaced by 197s soon,
GWR's don't really have an end in sight any time soon, same with EMR's or ScotRail's.

Northern haven't included 158 replacement in their new stock procurement

Yes they have, they're surely part of Lot 2 Phase 2 (many bi-modes).

 

[Trainman40083]

Class 158 and 159 have now been around for a considerable amount of time. From memory 158s were built between 1989 and 1992 and 159s were with between 1992 and 1993. I wonder how many more years before we see these units withdraw from service or will they solider on for many more years like 205 and 207 units did.

Thanks

Well, I'd suggest that once the 150/153/155 and 156s have all been replaced, it will be the turn of the 158/159s. That might well depend on how trains are purchased in the future. Will the Government buy them? (They claim to have no money) Or will they continue to be leased. That said, I'd expect to see them reach 40 years old.

 

[Mollman]

SWR have been playing around with the idea of putting batteries on 450s, which would probably see the 159s off (to scrap or to somewhere else is uncertain).

Northern's 158s will be replaced as part of the ongoing tender for replacement,
TfW's are getting being replaced by 197s soon,
GWR's don't really have an end in sight any time soon, same with EMR's or ScotRail's.

Yes they have, they're surely part of Lot 2 Phase 2 (many bi-modes).

Apologies I had misunderstood earlier posts about Sprinter replacement at Northern not including 158s

 

[Ribbleman]

Apologies I had misunderstood earlier posts about Sprinter replacement at Northern not including 158s

The tender programme will cover all Northern stock except 195s and 331s.

 

[Mark J]

Currently on board a Class 158 to Basingstoke.

Loving the old school

WC

engaged

in illuminated faded orange lettering.

Very retro, and a small reminder of the BR days!

 

[QSK19]

The tender programme will cover all Northern stock except 195s and 331s.

I could understand the 158s being replaced; but the 170s are covered too?

 

[brad465]

GWR's don't really have an end in sight any time soon, same with EMR's or ScotRail's.

GWR have Project Churchward proposed, which would replace 158s if approved, though that's still at least 5 years away.

 

[Ribbleman]

I could understand the 158s being replaced; but the 170s are covered too?

They are likely to be 35 years old by the time their turn for replacement comes around. That’s if current intentions do not change.

 

[3141]

It was reported that the Stagecoach bid for the South Western franchise in 2017 included new bi-modes for the West of England line. As things stand, the present class 158s and 159s can probably continue for several more years, especially if units withdrawn from elsewhere can provide a source of spares. They are comfortable and pleasant to travel in.

Replacing them with battery-equipped class 450s isn't an attractive prospect, unless the 450s concerned were fitted with 2+ 2 seating instead of 3+2.

158s and 159s are among the most successful BR designs.

 

[185]

Excellent train, spent my early years working on them but given their history of slipping, and being on a quite alarming slip myself around 25 years ago, passing two signals and coming to rest feet from another unit I think that these would be ideal & front of the queue for trials of EM-track brakes.

EM brakes should primarily be considered only for local, lower speed <75mph services and these should be limited to 75 if fitted. Personally I'm not comfortable with EM brakes on higher speed sets.

 

[TheGrew]

For the West of England Services is there enough Juice between Waterloo and Basingstoke to power them if they were to be bimode?

 

[dmncf]

The Class 158 & 159 have aluminium bodies. So presumably they're not suffering from corrosion like contemporary units with steel bodies, such as the Class 150?

 

[Train wasp]

It was reported that the Stagecoach bid for the South Western franchise in 2017 included new bi-modes for the West of England line. As things stand, the present class 158s and 159s can probably continue for several more years, especially if units withdrawn from elsewhere can provide a source of spares. They are comfortable and pleasant to travel in.

Replacing them with battery-equipped class 450s isn't an attractive prospect, unless the 450s concerned were fitted with 2+ 2 seating instead of 3+2.

158s and 159s are among the most successful BR designs.

Surely if 450s were to be used why not use the withdrawn 350/2 and convert them to 3rd rail and battery equipment. Plus the seating could be configured to a 2+2 seating.

 

[JonathanH]

Surely if 450s were to be used why not use the withdrawn 350/2 and convert them to 3rd rail and battery equipment. Plus the seating could be configured to a 2+2 seating.

The point is that the 450s are already on lease to SWR, and they have sufficient 701s due to displace the 450s needed. However, it is really speculation at present.

 

[Discuss223]

I read on another thread that some of Northern's 158s are being retained for services in the north east area (Morpeth etc).

I'm not aware of them suffering the level of corrosion problems that other BREL products have, such as the 150s.

Because BREL is a defunct organisation, there are now problems with sourcing replacement undercarriage equipment, such as wheelsets.
This may be a determining factor in replacing them where they are in a small pool of a TOC's fleet, such as Scotrail, who have lost units to other TOCs over the years.

I can certainly see East Midlands Railway retaining them indefinitely for Liverpool Lime Street - Norwich, as unlike the 170s, they are gangwayed and have flexibility as well as good route availability.


The Class 159s are in need of a modernisation.
MTB seats that are in Standard Class are very comfortable but long-distance journeys such as Exeter to London do warrant high-backed inter-city style seating, though First Class accommodation has great seating.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Class 158 & 159 have aluminium bodies. So presumably they're not suffering from corrosion like contemporary units with steel bodies, such as the Class 150?

With aluminium it's the welds that fail first. This is more of an issue with aircraft due to pressurisation cycles but there was a class of heritage DMUs (107s I think) which were withdrawn due to fatigue of aluminium welds.

 

[QSK19]

I can certainly see East Midlands Railway retaining them indefinitely for Liverpool Lime Street - Norwich, as unlike the 170s, they are gangwayed and have flexibility as well as good route availability.

They’ll have to go at some point though, they won’t last forever - they’re in their mid-30s in terms of age and aren’t getting any younger.

But yes, fundamentally, they do have a good chunk of life in them, they have their design advantages and I’m sure that a good supply of spare parts will be built up as other TOCs exit their 158s.

 

[3141]

The Class 159s are in need of a modernisation.
MTB seats that are in Standard Class are very comfortable but long-distance journeys such as Exeter to London do warrant high-backed inter-city style seating, though First Class accommodation has great seating.

I think it's barely eight years since they were last modernised. They don't appear to me to need it repeated at present.

For what reasons do long-distance journeys "warrant" high backed seats? The high backed seats on some intercity trains restrict the passengers' view and can seem claustrophobic. There's no reason to think the seats on class 159 are unsafe. The proportion of passengers who do the full journey London to Exeter is small, evidenced by the fact that one unit is detached at Salisbury from many of the trains arriving from Waterloo.

 

[Trainbike46]

I would expect any 158s withdrawn by some operators, such as TfW, will be taken on by one of the remaining 158 operators to reduce stock shortage/increase capacity with minimal new training needs, or to replace the oldest/worst/hardest to maintain units* in their fleet before new units arrive.

*such as older sprinters, HSTs, 16x units, etc.

 

[QSK19]

I would expect any 158s withdrawn by some operators, such as TfW, will be taken on by one of the remaining 158 operators to reduce stock shortage/increase capacity with minimal new training needs, or to replace the oldest/worst/hardest to maintain units* in their fleet before new units arrive.

*such as older sprinters, HSTs, 16x units, etc.

EMR being the obvious example given their 158s are staying on for quite a while yet.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Feb 2025 ==

I think it's barely eight years since they were last modernised. They don't appear to me to need it repeated at present.

Indeed. A unit which was modernised just 8 years ago would be positively luxurious over here in EMR-land . If their non-IC stock can endure 20+ years of heavy use without being modernised, it proves that doing one after just 8 isn’t necessary. Money can be better spent on something else.

 

[D365]

EMR being the obvious example given their 158s are staying on for quite a while yet.

Why EMR rather than GWR or Northern which both still operate older 15x classes?

 

[QSK19]

Why EMR rather than GWR or Northern which both still operate older 15x classes?

I think there is plenty of scope for growth across the Regional operation; however I wouldn’t rule out either of those TOCs.

 

[Snow1964]

DfT procurement pipeline spreadsheet has recently been updated (on 19th February) and appears GWR fleet expected to be replaced 2029-2031 and Northerns at slightly slower pace to 2032

However DfT indicative target dates often seem to be more a ballpark timeframe flexible by few years than definite plan.

Nothing appears for East Midlands or SWR so presumably both are expected to get hand me downs from other lines as their replacements

Future commercial contracts for DfT and partners

Listing of upcoming Department for Transport (DfT) and associated bodies commercial contracts – known as the commercial pipeline – for which bidders may apply.

www.gov.uk

 

[Mikey C]

Why EMR rather than GWR or Northern which both still operate older 15x classes?

The 158s are fine for replacing 156s, but with their narrow end doors would be ill suited for the sort of routes 150s tend to operate though.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The 158s are fine for replacing 156s, but with their narrow end doors would be ill suited for the sort of routes 150s tend to operate though.

The Manchester side treats 150s and 156s pretty much the same, I don't think there's any precision as to which are allocated where.
Either way, there aren't enough TfW 158s (24) to replace even just Northern's 156s (67) so it's probably not that big of an issue.

 

[stevieinselby]

The 158s are fine for replacing 156s, but with their narrow end doors would be ill suited for the sort of routes 150s tend to operate though.

For rural lines where there isn't a lot of churn at intermediate stations, there's no problem with using 156s or 158s ... a route like Huddersfield to Sheffield will only have penny numbers of passengers at most stations so won't be affected by slower loading. Are there many routes still being run by 150s that have high enough usage that it would be likely to be an issue?

 

[amahy]

Yes, many of the local diesel services around Manchester (Blackburn - Headbolt Lane, Clitheroe - Rochdale). Leeds to Wigan already has some dwell time issues with 158’s running stopping services.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Yes, many of the local diesel services around Manchester (Blackburn - Headbolt Lane, Clitheroe - Rochdale).

156s are already a common sight on those routes, replacing those 156s with 158s probably wouldn't have a big impact.