How did Rail Staff Travel work during nationalisation?

[Gloster]

But the GPO sorters inside the TPO had travel passes to authorise them to work on the TPO - the example I have from the 1980s is laminated plastic, approximately credit card sized.

Were these issued by the GPO or by British Rail? And were they route specific?

 

[mailbyrail]

I knew somebody would need to know
I'm not sure what I've done with it, I'm trying to find it so all can be revealed.
The GPO rules suggest it was issued by the GPO

 

[Merle Haggard]

Moving away from the thread subject I realise, but as well as Royal Mail sorting staff there were also newspaper trains with sorters on board.
On these trains, the sorters' employees were responsible for the purchase of season tickets for their staff.
The situation was slightly different from T.P.O.s in that the newspaper distributors did not charter the trains but paid carriage on the papers carried. There was more than one agent involved on each train.

 

[Signal_Box]

That sucks, drivers defo should.

Why ?

Believe it nor not there are many many equally vital grades beyond drivers!

A significant percentage of railway staff get NO free or even discounted travel even though their employer “own” the actual railway.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Two years not four, at least for salaried staff.

This must have changed over time, because I got my International Rail document (I STILL have it somewhere) after one year, after joining in 1969 as salaried staff (even if I was only a sponsored student).

After one month, I got a green priv card, allowing for 1/4 rate travel all over the BR network. This must have been valid on Sealink boats too. And possibly NIR?

I think we got some free BR tickets in the first year too, but can't be certain.

After one year, I got the International Rail Document (I forget the official name). It was on white semi-card, and had boxes where the HR dept stuck in a coloured stamp for each year.

This allowed 1/2 rate travel over western European railways, Hungary and I think, Yugoslavia.
1/4 travel over SNCF and Belgian railways.

Also after one year, we were allowed a return ticket in all European countries, with two allowed for France, Belgium and the Netherlands.

These were mostly on paper, written out by the staff dept. But for the 'exotic' railways, which mean, eg Turkey and most of the Commie block (but not Hungary, which, for some reason, was included in the general western railway ticketing system), you had special tickets issued by those railway companies on application.

As you also got six free tickets on the BR network, which meant from Hoek van Holland, Ostend, Calais etc to Ireland and N Ireland, in effect this mean you could travel free from Ireland to the far frontiers of these countries six times a year. Only you had to pay port taxes at most of the Channel Ports (but not NI or Ireland, I don't think).

 

[Merle Haggard]

There were tactics adopted by some who wanted to maximise the opportunity.
For instance, in the days when your free tickets had to be applied for in advance you didn't have to have returns, you could have singles, two singles being allowed instead of one return. Perhaps having two singles increased your chances of not getting clipped. It was not an obligation for the origin station being the one nearest to your home, so someone might apply for, say, a single Penzance - Thurso and another Oban - Dover. That covered most possible journeys .
And the International pass included the B.R. element and that could, perhaps unscrupulously, be used for an additional journey within B.R.. For this reason, one of my colleagues decided to have his international ticket made out from Devil's Bridge (then the VofR was B.R.) and encountered a very religious ticket examiner somewhere in mainland Europe. The latter became quite animated...

Of course I never adopted any of these practices myself; when I tried to apply for two singles where the origin of the second did not align with the destination of the first, I was grilled by the staff man. Fortunately I remembered distant relatives at the appropriate locations.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As a newly entered management trainee in September 1979 , on day one we were issued with a personal standard class "all stations" pass valid for 15 months. Issued to encourage wide travel experience. Some were stamped "valid also in rear cabs and brakevans"....

Imagine how well that would do down today? .

The expiry of same was a bit of a blow - as it put you back onto duty passes , priv's and so on. In some areas - the view was , when a priv was offered to be bought - "don't be daft - staff don't pay" - not a comprehensive view I have to say. I always bought a proper priv ticket if needed......

 

[Grumpy]

I don't think it has been mentioned but priv travel was not allowed on all trains. I vaguely recall a list being published each year listing the prohibited trains. I think it included some peak summer Saturday workings. Also some first class weekday London rush hour journeys eg into Marylebone.
Mention has been made of reciprocal facilities with European railways but I believe there was also an arrangement with railways in North America

 

[Mag_seven]

I vaguely recall a list being published each year listing the prohibited trains.

There still is!

 

[Taunton]

Family had business connections with a travel organiser called Fred Tjolle, a Belgian emigrant who had joined the railway in WW2 at Bristol St Philips Marsh, rising to driver, (and ASLEF branch secretary) who then left and started a travel company around late 1950s-early 1960s, which did package holidays to Belgium, marketed particularly at Bristol/South Wales railway staff and families, who got the rail travel part of the holiday, to Dover and thence the ship to Ostend, free. Took thousands of rail staff. Described in this article by the organisers' own son:

https://valerex.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/my-love-affair-with-tourism-you-lucky-people/

Meanwhile I had moved on to university at Edinburgh in the 1970s where a course colleague, son of a senior manager based in London, got the family first class facilities, and would come to/fro in the sleeper from Kings Cross. It was there I heard of the tickets being applied for as Penzance to Wick, which made it effectively valid on all services.

But more so at Edinburgh, what I did notice was the number of rail management staff working in both Glasgow and Edinburgh who lived in the opposite city, and commuted on the Class 27 Push-Pull. This had one of the six coaches first class. Now Scottish regular passengers are a sensible set, and nobody I ever knew, even seniors in the business world, ever paid for first class tickets on internal Scottish services, so the first class coach was generally empty stock - apart from at peak periods, when it formed a sort of private club for the managerial grades, who travelled in isolation whilst at the same time there were standees in all coaches of the rest of the train. Which I always felt was a bit disappointing.

 

[Falcon1200]

Mention has been made of reciprocal facilities with European railways but I believe there was also an arrangement with railways in North America

There was indeed, with Amtrak, which I made use of (on our honeymoon !) to travel from Boston to New York, and from New York to Washington and return.

 

[Wychwood93]

Family had business connections with a travel organiser called Fred Tjolle, a Belgian emigrant who had joined the railway in WW2 at Bristol St Philips Marsh, rising to driver, (and ASLEF branch secretary) who then left and started a travel company around late 1950s-early 1960s, which did package holidays to Belgium, marketed particularly at Bristol/South Wales railway staff and families, who got the rail travel part of the holiday, to Dover and thence the ship to Ostend, free. Took thousands of rail staff. Described in this article by the organisers' own son:

https://valerex.wordpress.com/2009/02/03/my-love-affair-with-tourism-you-lucky-people/

Meanwhile I had moved on to university at Edinburgh in the 1970s where a course colleague, son of a senior manager based in London, got the family first class facilities, and would come to/fro in the sleeper from Kings Cross. It was there I heard of the tickets being applied for as Penzance to Wick, which made it effectively valid on all services.

But more so at Edinburgh, what I did notice was the number of rail management staff working in both Glasgow and Edinburgh who lived in the opposite city, and commuted on the Class 27 Push-Pull. This had one of the six coaches first class. Now Scottish regular passengers are a sensible set, and nobody I ever knew, even seniors in the business world, ever paid for first class tickets on internal Scottish services, so the first class coach was generally empty stock - apart from at peak periods, when it formed a sort of private club for the managerial grades, who travelled in isolation whilst at the same time there were standees in all coaches of the rest of the train. Which I always felt was a bit disappointing.

With regard to the last para. - in the early Railtrack days I commuted from Christchurch to Waterloo, quite often alongside an EG grade manager, who also lived locally at the time - given that 'our' train (1B04 0545 Poole-Waterloo?) was full from Parkway and 'rammed' from Winchester, he chose to do the decent thing and give up his entitled seat for a fare paying passenger.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Certain BR managers used to nod to a guard and use their (always carried carriage keys) and occupy a intermediate spare cab or EMU brake van ........

 

[LowLevel]

Certain BR managers used to nod to a guard and use their (always carried carriage keys) and occupy a intermediate spare cab or EMU brake van ........

That's not that unusual now, Middle cabs often carry people with passes on their way to work! Some years ago I remember a 153 being dropped on to a morning peak service that was normally very busy with it's booked 156 traction.

The front cab was occupied by a driver and 3 managers who held front cab passes.

The train was stuffed front to back, the guard was wedged at the door panel and the cab door was shut across the desk with another 5 or 6 people stood in there and sat on the secondman's desk. They didn't leave anyone behind though!

Couldn't possibly comment regarding my own experiences with class 153 but working them was certainly a different way of life for all concerned!

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I had a two month job on the Underground timing Northern Line delays in 1987. Got a free Underground pass. The BR reference is that it got me to Watford Jct and Croxley Green which were not, by that time, served by the Underground (Croxley Green never had). But only via the DC lines I think.

 

[6Gman]

Rules & Regulations for officers of the Travelling Post Offices issued by the GPPO in 1927 include the following

Rule 5 states: Travelling in Post Office Carriages is permitted only to those whose duty as Post Office Officials takes them there, and to those who are in possession of authority given by the Chief superintendent of travelling Post Offices, the Postmaster controlling the Mail, the Controller LPS or the Secretary.
Rule 6 states: Every Travelling Officer is supplied with a card or free ticket warranting his presence in a Mail Carriage, and when on duty he should alwayds carry that card or ticket. Officers supplied with a warrant card should sign it on the back. The card or ticket should be produced if a Paying Officer or Railway Official desires to see it.

The 1955 rules are similar although a subsequent amendment to the later rules also changed rule 5 to begin Travelling in Post Office vehicles and visiting them while standing in railway stations...

Worth mentioning that some high value stuff was moved around on the TPOs those days. No electronic transfers generally available and so much done with folding paper cash. Hence the interest shown by the "great" train robbers in the Up Postal - banknotes in large quantities.

So there needed to be strict control of who was on them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2022 ==

With regard to the last para. - in the early Railtrack days I commuted from Christchurch to Waterloo, quite often alongside an EG grade manager, who also lived locally at the time - given that 'our' train (1B04 0545 Poole-Waterloo?) was full from Parkway and 'rammed' from Winchester, he chose to do the decent thing and give up his entitled seat for a fare paying passenger.

I believe active staff are still required/ expected to give up their seat to fare paying passengers. Retired staff are not required to do so, presumably because we are old and frail.

I attained retired status at age 41.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Apr 2022 ==

There were tactics adopted by some who wanted to maximise the opportunity.
For instance, in the days when your free tickets had to be applied for in advance you didn't have to have returns, you could have singles, two singles being allowed instead of one return. Perhaps having two singles increased your chances of not getting clipped. It was not an obligation for the origin station being the one nearest to your home, so someone might apply for, say, a single Penzance - Thurso and another Oban - Dover. That covered most possible journeys .
And the International pass included the B.R. element and that could, perhaps unscrupulously, be used for an additional journey within B.R.. For this reason, one of my colleagues decided to have his international ticket made out from Devil's Bridge (then the VofR was B.R.) and encountered a very religious ticket examiner somewhere in mainland Europe. The latter became quite animated...

Of course I never adopted any of these practices myself; when I tried to apply for two singles where the origin of the second did not align with the destination of the first, I was grilled by the staff man. Fortunately I remembered distant relatives at the appropriate locations.

Keith to Hamble allowed a wide variety of routes.

 

[CW2]

One of the ways of "extending" the free pass validiy to the maximum was always to apply for single tickets, not returns. That way if some evil ticket inspector punched a hole in it, only that part of the journey was "used". (Unused tickets could be returned to the staff office for cancellation or re-issue with a new date). You would always book the tickets for a location beyond your actual destination, so e.g. if travelling Edinburgh to Kings Cross the ticket might be from Ardgay to Quintrel Downs (the more obscure the better) so there was no chance of the ticket being collected by the guard between Peterborough and Kings Cross. I normally had 2 or 3 part-used single tickets in my wallet, ready for any eventualities. Most guards took a pretty relaxed view of staff travel, but there were some particularly vindictive / efficient TTIs around the system who stuck very rigidly to the rules. One James Ord of Perth aka "Loose Irons" was a case in point.

 

[Tio Terry]

When I started with BR, as a fifteen year old school leaver, I was given a grey Workmans Pass which covered the then Norwich District. As I progressed through the Technical Route via TO, STO and PTO I got a green Second Class pass covering the same area. As Ms1 that changed to a white First Class pass. Then, as MS2 it became what was known as a First Class All Stations, Eastern Region and by Ships (Sealink) White Leather Pass. When reaching the dizzy heights of MS4 it became an All Stations and by Ships BR Brown Leather pass. When you got to SO grades you eventually got a medallion pass. There were some other addons, I had an LU pass because I was based in London when I got to MS5, and I had a footplate pass because my job sometimes required me to travel "Up Front".

There were some restrictions on which services you could use these passes on which created some interesting anomalies! At one time, as an MS5 Brown Leather Pass holder, I could travel on the 17:00 out of Liverpool St to Norwich First Class, with my dog, but the wife and children could only travel Standard because they were filling in boxes on their travel cards!

 

[Pinza-C55]

What about them? They were travelling on duty, in uniform. I doubt there was any mistaken identity of that. Not sure whether they were actually issued a duty pass, or perhaps it was just too obvious for there to be much argument. Privilege tickets were strictly for leisure travel only.

I remember in maybe the early 80's they caught a guy at York who had acquired a full guards uniform and bag and travelled about pretending to be on duty. I think he was rumbled when he claimed to be from the same depot an actual guard was from.

 

[Taunton]

Stewart Joy, Beeching's Chief Economist, went around the network a bit in the early 1960s checking out what he suspected to be anomolies in the data provided for rail usage. An early morning train from Dunbar to Edinburgh, for which a large V2 steam loco was sent out from Edinburgh for the return, appeared initially safe from any reduction, as it claimed something like 100 passengers, which he thought surprising, so he checked it out on arrival at Edinburgh. There were indeed 100 on board - a handful of fare-paying passengers, and 90-something staff travelling to work on free passes.

 

[30907]

Stewart Joy, Beeching's Chief Economist, went around the network a bit in the early 1960s checking out what he suspected to be anomolies in the data provided for rail usage. An early morning train from Dunbar to Edinburgh, for which a large V2 steam loco was sent out from Edinburgh for the return, appeared initially safe from any reduction, as it claimed something like 100 passengers, which he thought surprising, so he checked it out on arrival at Edinburgh. There were indeed 100 on board - a handful of fare-paying passengers, and 90-something staff travelling to work on free passes.

But if the passes were legit (the distance seems rather long for free daily travel, but ScR may have had its own rule) then from an economist's point of view the DMO or whatever were "paying."
There were trains on the SR that had substantial contingents of DMO staff, though not in that proportion - the 1642 Waterloo-Basingstoke/Alton calling specially at Wimbledon, or the Lewisham-Beckenham Jn and v.v. staff trains.

 

[AndrewE]

They almost certainly weren't on free passes (unless the Scottish region had its own rules, as noted above.) I think there was a 4-mile limit on a free residential pass, and beyond that I think that beyond that you paid 1/4 of the public season ticket price, so there would have been payments for all those journeys - apart from Senior Officers and other top brass.
It wasn't a case of "no revenue" on that train, it was simply that the traffic department had to deliver what the personnel people had agreed in contracts of employment to get people to work for the railway (at what were quite poor wages at the time.)

 

[Taunton]

I wonder what the revenue situation was then. It is described in Stewart Joy's book about his time at the top of BR - "The Train that Ran Away".

 

[AndrewE]

They almost certainly weren't on free passes (unless the Scottish region had its own rules, as noted above.) I think there was a 4-mile limit on a free residential pass, and beyond that I think that beyond that you paid 1/4 of the public season ticket price, so there would have been payments for all those journeys - apart from Senior Officers and other top brass.
It wasn't a case of "no revenue" on that train, it was simply that the traffic department had to deliver what the personnel people had agreed in contracts of employment to get people to work for the railway (at what were quite poor wages at the time.)

I wonder what the situation was then. It is described in Stewart Joy's book about his time at the top of BR - "The Train that Ran Away".

Don't you think that someone looking for data to justify closures and service withdrawals might have misrepresented the situation? "They are railway staff, so they are feather-bedded and must be travelling free..."
I will get the book to read, but suspect that he (SJ) might have been among the managers "at the top of BR" who weren't really committed to it, just doing a job - and with no real belief in the role the railways should play in public transport.

 

[Taunton]

I'm afraid that doesn't characterise Stewart Joy at all - an Australian, career railwayman, masters in Economics, he was exceptionally sharp on detail, and personally selected by Beeching to be effectively his front man. Together with Gerry Fiennes they developed the Beeching era concepts for fast and frequent Inter-City, Freightliners, Merry-go-Round coal, higher speed main lines, etc. A better railway.

I hope you enjoy the book. It's very competently written.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Stewart Joy, Beeching's Chief Economist, went around the network a bit in the early 1960s checking out what he suspected to be anomolies in the data provided for rail usage. An early morning train from Dunbar to Edinburgh, for which a large V2 steam loco was sent out from Edinburgh for the return, appeared initially safe from any reduction, as it claimed something like 100 passengers, which he thought surprising, so he checked it out on arrival at Edinburgh. There were indeed 100 on board - a handful of fare-paying passengers, and 90-something staff travelling to work on free passes.

At first glance 90 odd staff travelling in from Dunbar seems a very high number especially when considering staff would also travel in on routes from places such as North Berwick, Dalkeith, Leith, Granton, Corstorphine, towns in Fife, Linlithgow (and even back then perhaps a few from Glasgow), Bathgate, West Calder etc.
However the 1962 summer TT reveals the 07.50 from Dunbar called all stations (8 of) arriving Waverley 08.46 so some may have joined at stations such as East Linton, Drem, Joppa and Portobello. An earlier 06.55 from Dunbar (arrive 07.42) is shown as 'Diesel Train' which in that era meant DMU, and there was also an 08.12 from Dunbar which came from Berwick (arrive 09.05), with also three arrivals from North Berwick between these two trains, the combination of which still makes the figure of 90ish seem quite high for this one train but I suppose we will never know.

 

[Gloster]

I presume that in those days there were still plenty of staff at Waverley as the East Coast Division was based there; I am not sure when Buchanan House (?) in Glasgow opened, so there may still have been quite a few ancillary Regional functions based in Edinburgh as well. 08.46 is a nice time to arrive, considering that it is right outside, or at least close to, your office. Fourteen minutes to go into the building, up the stairs, into your office, take off you hat and coat, and sit down at your desk. You are now at work (and can now get up and make a cup of tea, have a friendly chat with someone, look at the notice board to see which station’s garden has won a prize, etc.) And if you’re train is late: well, it was your employer who operated it.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I am not sure when Buchanan House (?) in Glasgow opened, so there may still have been quite a few ancillary Regional functions based in Edinburgh as well.

Buchanan House opened in 1975 (Wikipedia), it is partly on the site of Buchanan St station which closed in 66.

The '62 TT quotes HQ for ScR as 302 Buchanan Street, which today according to Google Earth is close to Queen St station, and Divisional Offices without listed addresses in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Inverness.

In Glasgow in the 70s ScR also had Blythswood House but I am not sure when they moved in there (or left) although I did have my medical there in 1977.

 

[Dunnideer]

Buchanan House opened in 1975 (Wikipedia), it is partly on the site of Buchanan St station which closed in 66.

The '62 TT quotes HQ for ScR as 302 Buchanan Street, which today according to Google Earth is close to Queen St station, and Divisional Offices without listed addresses in Glasgow, Edinburgh and Inverness.

In Glasgow in the 70s ScR also had Blythswood House but I am not sure when they moved in there (or left) although I did have my medical there in 1977.

I hate to contradict the great Wikipedia but BR ScR first leased accomodation in Buchanan House in September 1969. It was a speculative build (construction started in 1967) by Glasgow College of Technology and the building is still owned by its successor Glasgow Caledonian University.

 

[Taunton]

I believe it was Buchanan House myself (non-railway) went into sometime early 1974 to discuss what we were doing on property adjacent to the line.

There seemed a significant number of staff at the time who lived in Glasgow or Edinburgh but who worked in the BR office in the opposite city, leading to much travel to/fro at the ends of the day, and doubtless within the day as well.