How could rail services be improved in the Manchester area?

[Ianno87]

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Also my understanding was that no trams terminate in the platforms at the Picadilly tram stop, don't they run into the tunnel beyond and use a reversing siding?

Yes, they reverse in Sheffield Street siding.

The functionality to reverse in the platforms (installed in 1998 and fell out of use after only a few years) was removed entirely in the 2008 city centre track renewals.

 

[AndrewE]

I would presume there are many bridges across the network with insufficient clearance?!

Good point.

It's not true, in any case, that doubled-up trams take too much time across junctions. Most Metrolink services are now doubled up all day.

but they are pretty feeble things to start with, and you can't double them up again.

Given how much of the system was converted from rail networks - you can no more have double deck trams in Manchester than we can have double decker trains!

Ultimately, the best way to improve capacity would be to make future orders for double length multiple-articulation vehicles, eliminating the intermediate cabs and coupler space.

Extra-long trams might be more efficient, but they are still single-deck. I sense a whiff of "not invented here!" Edinburgh is either on road or new alignment, so an opportunity missed.
I wonder whether any Manchester routes could have been built with higher clearances on the off-road sections - although I do realise they were originally converted mainly to avoid modernising bits of the heavy rail system. Are there any of the outer routes with few overbridges which could be re-jigged and operated as through double-deck lines? Oldham and Altrincham?
I would call it future-proofing.
A

 

[LOL The Irony]

You seem to be suggesting that Metrolink is some sort of evil cult...?

I was implying it was a religion for some, but you do you.

No, some more forcing is needed. For as long as driving is easy/cheap, people will do it.

That sounds like the makings of a government sponsored price fixing cartel.

Deansgate really isn't close enough to the true centre of Manchester to be much use as a Metrolink core line IMO.

Using the core as little as possible is the whole point of such a line. The only time I envision them meeting it is at Exchange Square.

 

[Ianno87]

That sounds like the makings of a government sponsored price fixing cartel.

More commonly known as "taxation". The days of easy, cheap motoring need to end.

 

[Bletchleyite]

More commonly known as "taxation". The days of easy, cheap motoring need to end.

A hefty parking space tax would be the easiest way to deal with this in cities (and provide a bit of extra money from those who still drive and pay it). Didn't Nottingham do that? Congestion charging is a bit of an expensive thing to implement and not really necessary if you can't park without paying anyway.

 

[py_megapixel]

I do agree, but you need to convince people to leave their cars at home, not force them.

Think about it another way: with everyone driving, I am being forced to hear large amounts of noise, breath in exhaust fumes, cross busy roads to walk in most places (which runs the risk of being involved in a collision), walk across huge car parks to access buildings and be stuck in traffic if I ever want to take a bus or street-running tram.

Why is forcing people who want to walk to do that less of an issue to you than forcing people who want to drive to switch modes or pay a charge?

 

[Ianno87]

Think about it another way: with everyone driving, I am being forced to hear large amounts of noise, breath in exhaust fumes, cross busy roads to walk in most places (which runs the risk of being involved in a collision), walk across huge car parks to access buildings and be stuck in traffic if I ever want to take a bus or street-running tram.

Why is forcing people who want to walk to do that less of an issue to you than forcing people who want to drive to switch modes or pay a charge?

Cars make cities unpleasant.

 

[py_megapixel]

Cars make cities unpleasant.

Yes.

Cities are having cars forced upon them, not the other way round!

 

[LOL The Irony]

More commonly known as "taxation". The days of easy, cheap motoring need to end.

A hefty parking space tax would be the easiest way to deal with this in cities (and provide a bit of extra money from those who still drive and pay it). Didn't Nottingham do that? Congestion charging is a bit of an expensive thing to implement and not really necessary if you can't park without paying anyway.

You make it faster and easier to use than driving to the location.

with everyone driving, I am being forced to hear large amounts of noise, breath in exhaust fumes

Isn't this why we are bringing in Battery and Fuel Cell electric vehicles?

Cars make cities unpleasant.

Cities are having cars forced upon them, not the other way round!

Cars, in their most basic form have existed since the wheel was invented, many centuries longer than Manchester has been a city. Maybe now you could say they're being forced upon them from a certain point of view, but you can't say they don't belong there.

 

[HSTEd]

Using the core as little as possible is the whole point of such a line. The only time I envision them meeting it is at Exchange Square.

The problem is if you stay out of the true centre of Manchester it makes the line considerably less attractive to users.

Especially as providing interchange is key to making services attractive. Right now apart from the short Trafford Centre service, all lines connect to all other lines, and I assume the Trafford Centre line will gain this when it eventually extends into the Centre of Manchester. Maintaining this to the greatest degree possible is important I think.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You make it faster and easier to use than driving to the location.

It mostly is. Driving in central Manchester is grim and you can rarely park near where you are going.

 

[py_megapixel]

Isn't this why we are bringing in Battery and Fuel Cell electric vehicles?

And you've ignored all the other issues I listed. Besides, EVs are still noisy at speed.

Cars, in their most basic form have existed since the wheel was invented, many centuries longer than Manchester has been a city. Maybe now you could say they're being forced upon them from a certain point of view, but you can't say they don't belong there.

We're talking about motorised private cars for passenger transport. The first widely available one of those was the Ford Model T which dates from the early 20th century.

 

[Ianno87]

It mostly is. Driving in central Manchester is grim and you can rarely park near where you are going.

Yep. And people still drive in huge numbers.

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Cars, in their most basic form have existed since the wheel was invented, many centuries longer than Manchester has been a city. Maybe now you could say they're being forced upon them from a certain point of view, but you can't say they don't belong there.

It's OK when there are a few cars. There are simply too many of them now, and far too much space is dedicated to them at the expense of other uses of that land.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Why put a time limit on? If a solution to improve services happens to be a long term plan, why discount it from the discussion?

I thought that the idea was to see an improvement in the foreseeable near future.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2021 ==

Think about it another way: with everyone driving, I am being forced to hear large amounts of noise, breath in exhaust fumes, cross busy roads to walk in most places (which runs the risk of being involved in a collision), walk across huge car parks to access buildings and be stuck in traffic if I ever want to take a bus or street-running tram.

What exhaust fumes are emitted from electric cars?

 

[Greybeard33]

Yes, they reverse in Sheffield Street siding.

The functionality to reverse in the platforms (installed in 1998 and fell out of use after only a few years) was removed entirely in the 2008 city centre track renewals.

Correct. And 20tph at Piccadilly, with 10tph reversing at Sheffield Street and the other 10tph running through, is considered the reliable limit for this infrastructure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's OK when there are a few cars. There are simply too many of them now, and far too much space is dedicated to them at the expense of other uses of that land.

This, as an aside, is why parking taxation and congestion/pollution* charges can potentially entirely replace fuel duty for EVs - cheaper use of EVs in rural areas where public transport is basically nonexistent is a good thing, not a bad thing, but when they go to town they need to be encouraged to park and ride, e.g. at an outlying Metrolink station.

Replies here if not talking specifically about Manchester: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-public-transport-walking-and-cycling.216199/

* These might not even be necessary - just start a hefty fuel tax escalator on petrol and diesel.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The problem is if you stay out of the true centre of Manchester it makes the line considerably less attractive to users.

Such a line would be mainly for through passengers. Plus it uses Deansgate and Exchange Square (at the Western entrance of the Arndale), I don't think it would be unpopular or less attractive.

And you've ignored all the other issues I listed.

Look before crossing the road and you won't be run over then. And I'd much rather be hit by a car (especially a modern one, with advancements such as bonnets that pop up to stop your head hitting the windscreen and pedestrian airbags) than a bus or tram.

Yep. And people still drive in huge numbers.

Then you understand why they're driving and not using public transport.

It's OK when there are a few cars. There are simply too many of them now, and far too much space is dedicated to them at the expense of other uses of that land.

Most of the places you would want to go in central Manchester are very pedestrian or tram centric already, I don't see why you need to improve it beyond what's already there.

 

[Gareth]

Is there space to fourtrack the CLC up to Irlam and have Metrolink serve all stations up to there? All trains could then run fast between Irlam and Manchester. You'd get better service on the local stations at the Manchester end and quicker journey times for the stopping rail services.

Additionally, I like the idea of totally rebuilding Victoria in lieu of a new alignment but it really could do with some connection to the Hope Valley lines. I don't know how you could do this. I know it's possible with that line through Philips Park but it's slow and ambling and would result in notably slower Sheffield-Manchester journey times than via Piccadilly.

 

[py_megapixel]

Look before crossing the road and you won't be run over then. And I'd much rather be hit by a car (especially a modern one, with advancements such as bonnets that pop up to stop your head hitting the windscreen and pedestrian airbags) than a bus or tram.

You're still missing that point that cars make cities highly unpleasant places to be.

 

[Ken H]

I thought that the idea was to see an improvement in the foreseeable near future.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2021 ==


What exhaust fumes are emitted from electric cars?

They come out of the power stations. Most of our leccy comes from gas. We even burn coal still.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They come out of the power stations. Most of our leccy comes from gas. We even burn coal still.

Power stations typically aren't in major cities, which means even if it was all from coal you still have big health benefits.

 

[Ianno87]

Then you understand why they're driving and not using public transport.

So there's one tool left in the box: Price.

 

[Purple Orange]

Some corrections to the above: pre-pandemic, there were separate 5tph services Eccles - Ashton and MediaCityUK - Ashton, giving Ashton 10tph. This will be reintroduced before any new services, so there is only capacity for 5tph from the Trafford Park line into the city centre (the Airport line is planned to go to 10tph). An additional 5tph from Trafford Park could perhaps terminate at Deansgate-Castlefield if demand grows sufficiently.

From St Peters Square the 1CC line will have 25tph and the 2CC 20tph, considered to be pretty much their maximum capacity.

The Oldham line has 10tph (5tph Rochdale, 5tph Shaw). The Bury line is planned to have 15tph (10tph Bury, 5tph Crumpsall) once the Trafford Park service runs through, and 10tph Airport will terminate at Victoria, giving Victoria 35tph (20tph via 2CC, 15tph via 1CC). The proposed Middleton service might perhaps be an extension of one of the Airports.

10tph terminate at Piccadilly (5tph Bury, 5tph Altrincham) and could potentially be extended to Marple/Glossop as tram-trains. There is also an aspiration for a direct Oldham - Piccadilly service, doubling frequency between Victoria and Piccadilly to 10tph, but that is not feasible as long as 10tph continue to terminate at the current 2-platform Piccadilly stop.

Yes, however my post was based on what could be rather than what it is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2021 ==

Deansgate really isn't close enough to the true centre of Manchester to be much use as a Metrolink core line IMO.

Which is a problem because the paucity of bridges means that we end up with a flat crossing over other Metrolink lines which is likely to be little better in traffic management terms than simply putting more trains through the existing core.


Also my understanding was that no trams terminate in the platforms at the Picadilly tram stop, don't they run into the tunnel beyond and use a reversing siding?

You're actually saying Deansgate station isnt in the city centre core? Or course it is. It sits on top of Deansgate Locks right next to the Hilton.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2021 ==

Likewise that the United Church of Metrolink members seemingly want every suburban and regional line into Manchester part or fully converted to Metrolink, regardless whether it's wanted or needed, don't use trains outside of Greater Manchester. I initially wanted Metrolink on my line, then I smelled the roses.

Also if I'm so anti Metrolink, remind me who suggested a 3CC along Deansgate that avoided St Peter's Square and Cornbrook. Just because I view its purpose differently to you, does not make me anti Metrolink. Same way in which it doesn't make you anti heavy rail.

I think you are over egging what people want to see converted to metrolink. There are two realistic lines and one outsider that can be converted to metrolink. All three will not stop heavy rail services continuing on the lines.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Knowing how some people seem to have smart phones seemingly attached to their heads or have music playing in headphones, whilst in the city centre especially, the greater number of trams projected in many of these postings will make it even more likely that even more unfortunate occurences will statistically happen.

There are times when reading threads that indulge in speculative crayonistae/aspirational flights of fancy in which the ultimate end will be the city centre of Manchester will have neither road transport of any type nor pedestrians, but just a never ending succession of trams and tram trains running services that were once the preserve of heavy rail....

 

[HSTEd]

You're actually saying Deansgate station isnt in the city centre core? Or course it is. It sits on top of Deansgate Locks right next to the Hilton.

Well yeah?

I've lived in Manchester over ten years, I haven't been out there at all often. Indeed about the only times I've ever been to the region between the Canal and Deansgate would be to go to MOSI.

I would suggest that the city centre stops not much further west of the existing 2CC line, and if Deansgate is in the centre it is definitely on the very edge.

Isn't Deansgate Locks increasingly just a dive for students?

I think you are over egging what people want to see converted to metrolink. There are two realistic lines and one outsider that can be converted to metrolink. All three will not stop heavy rail services continuing on the lines.

Well lets see, for me:

1. CLC to Warrington Central
2. Atherton Line to Wigan
3. Glossop/Hadfield Line
4. Rose Hill Marple

and then we have my "outliers":

1. Tram trains on the Mid Cheshire Line
2. Stockport-Stalybridge line, in connection with the former
3. New Mills Central

But I accept I am very much in the minority here!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm guessing @Purple Orange's are the same list but minus Warrington, i.e. the realistic ones are Hadfield and Rose Hill (joined to existing services that terminate at Piccadilly), the Atherton line the outlier (as 25kV electrification is also an option for it), and they think Warrington isn't possible?

 

[Purple Orange]

Well yeah?

I've lived in Manchester over ten years, I haven't been out there at all often. Indeed about the only times I've ever been to the region between the Canal and Deansgate would be to go to MOSI.

I would suggest that the city centre stops not much further west of the existing 2CC line, and if Deansgate is in the centre it is definitely on the very edge.

Isn't Deansgate Locks increasingly just a dive for students?



Well lets see, for me:

1. CLC to Warrington Central
2. Atherton Line to Wigan
3. Glossop/Hadfield Line
4. Rose Hill Marple

and then we have my "outliers":

1. Tram trains on the Mid Cheshire Line
2. Stockport-Stalybridge line, in connection with the former
3. New Mills Central

But I accept I am very much in the minority here!

Deansgate station (NR and metrolink) is definitely in the city centre and ive been living in and around Manc for several decades. Back in the 90s there would be a case for saying it was just outside the city centre, but all those city centre skyscrapers you see today are further out than Deansgate station is. I suggest you come and visit.

Anyway, as for metrolink lines, I was considering as my three:

1. Glossop/Hadfield and Rose Hill
2. Wigan via Atherton
3. Warrington via CLC (outsider candidate)

 

[Glenn1969]

Deansgate station (NR and metrolink) is definitely in the city centre and ive been living in and around Manc for several decades. Back in the 90s there would be a case for saying it was just outside the city centre, but all those city centre skyscrapers you see today are further out than Deansgate station is. I suggest you come and visit.

Anyway, as for metrolink lines, I was considering as my three:

1. Glossop/Hadfield and Rose Hill
2. Wigan via Atherton
3. Warrington via CLC (outsider candidate)

Could a way be found for Metrolink to penetrate the Calder Valley corridor as well? Littleborough and Smithy Bridge are among the few areas with no direct bus to Manchester and we are currently hamstrung by comparatively poor connectivity and inability to access Castlefield by any direct route

 

[Bletchleyite]

Could a way be found for Metrolink to penetrate the Calder Valley corridor as well? Littleborough and Smithy Bridge are among the few areas with no direct bus to Manchester and we are currently hamstrung by comparatively poor connectivity and inability to access Castlefield by any direct route

25kV electrification is to me the key to improved local services on the Calder Valley given its additional regional role. Mixing trams with things (just like Merseyrail) isn't going to give good reliability, and if a freight breakdown on the Calder Valley breaks one of the Manchester city crossings, that's just like it breaking Castlefield.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Deansgate station (NR and metrolink) is definitely in the city centre and ive been living in and around Manc for several decades. Back in the 90s there would be a case for saying it was just outside the city centre, but all those city centre skyscrapers you see today are further out than Deansgate station is. I suggest you come and visit.

Traditionally, St. Ann's Square has been the centre of Manchester, with Deansgate station very much on the periphery. Of course, if you live over towards there, you may well consider it to be the centre of your bubble.