How could rail services be improved in the Manchester area?

[SJL2020]

This of course relies on Eastlands being built and then upstaging the AO Arena. Manchester Council could wake up tomorrow and decide that they don't want 2 arenas.

Construction of the Eastland arena started a few months ago.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the point of view this needs to be tackled from is on a basis of the arena staying and Victoria not being expanded. A form of Thameslink needs to happen through Castlefield and Victoria, but perhaps it will never be as intense.

Can anything be learned from the Dublin DART+ proposals where the network is expanding to cover several lines in to the city, with tracks sharing line space with long distance services too? The network started with one line and a couple of branches at each end, with 6 tph running through the core.

Could this be applied to Victoria? Perhaps post TRU and NPR, no fast services run through Victoria, and could we see 12 tph run? For example on both the Rochdale line and Stalybridge line, you get 4 stoppers and 2 semi-fast?

Again, what are you going to do with Barrow, Windermere and Scotland? There is no scope for those to go onto NPR.

 

[Purple Orange]

Again, what are you going to do with Barrow, Windermere and Scotland? There is no scope for those to go onto NPR.

They need to be incorporated within that network. I’m not suggesting they are removed if they can’t be removed, but I think there is scope to begin metro frequencies on certain routes at 4 tph by using many of the existing services, not adding to them.

Remember that this is post NPR/TRU:

• 2 tph Huddersfield-Stalybridge-Victoria-Airport (metro)
• 2 tph Stalybridge-Victoria-Airport (metro)
• 2 tph Leeds-Liverpool (semi fast)

The above would constitute a basic metro service from Stalybridge onwards. The existing TPE fasts through Victoria would instead be running in to Piccadilly HS2 before reversing back out to the airport HS2 station. The TPE semi-fasts could also run through Victoria and Salford Central then on to Liverpool. The TRU plan is to have 4 fasts, 2 semi-fasts and 2 stoppers over the Pennines, but the Stalybridge stoppers would still be running too. The 4 fast would be taken on by NPR. This would result in 6 tph through P3 & P4 at Vic.

On the Rochdale line we could have (post conversion of the Atherton line):

• 2 tph Clitheroe-Bolton-Victoria-Rochdale-Blackburn (metro)
• 2 tph Southport-Bolton-Victoria-Rochdale-Bradford (metro)
• 1 tph Chester-Leeds via Bradford (semi fast)
• 1 tph Kirby-Atherton-Rochdale-Leeds via Dewsbury (semi fast)

Castlefield needs to be able to accommodate at least 12 tph, and Scotland, Blackpool, Cumbria, N. Wales should be accommodated of course, but this is the question about what can done to enable that frequency.

 

[Manutd1999]

Is there an argument for closing Oxford Road?

At present, a random selection of services call at Deansgate, and all services call at Oxford Rd. If we assume that a Thameslink-style operation is not going to happen in the medium term, and that Castlefield will continue to see a mix of local, regional and inter-city services, perhaps this needs to be re-assessed.

Oxford Rd and Deasgate are very close together in the grand scheme of things (<1km). It is not logical for regional and inter-city services to be calling at both stations.

Operationally, it is clearly perferable to have all services moving through Castlefield at the same speed, calling at the same stations.

So then it comes down to a choice between Oxford Road or Deansgate.

Deansgate is better connected to Metrolink, so perhaps we should be focusing on renovating there to make it more appealing?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Is there an argument for closing Oxford Road?

...Deansgate is better connected to Metrolink, so perhaps we should be focusing on renovating there to make it more appealing?

Oxford Road has more platforms so will always have the upper hand over Deansgate in that regard. Piccadilly is getting a new Metrolink station as part of HS2, so interchanges can easily be transferred there. It won't be ideal for some passengers but tough doo doo.

 

[Manutd1999]

Oxford Road has more platforms so will always have the upper hand over Deansgate in that regard.

True, but unless Piccadilly 15/16 gets built (which seems unlikely atm) it doesn't really make a difference.

Refurbishing Deansgate offers a cheaper short/medium term solution. It could become the main interchange station for metrolink, helping to relieve the pressure on platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly. Oxford Rd would be left in place, but with no (or minimal) trains calling.

Longer term, the case for (re-)building Platform 15/16 and Oxford Road could then be looked at as part of the HS3/TfN projects.

 

[Ianno87]

Is there an argument for closing Oxford Road?

At present, a random selection of services call at Deansgate, and all services call at Oxford Rd. If we assume that a Thameslink-style operation is not going to happen in the medium term, and that Castlefield will continue to see a mix of local, regional and inter-city services, perhaps this needs to be re-assessed.

Oxford Rd and Deasgate are very close together in the grand scheme of things (<1km). It is not logical for regional and inter-city services to be calling at both stations.

Operationally, it is clearly perferable to have all services moving through Castlefield at the same speed, calling at the same stations.

So then it comes down to a choice between Oxford Road or Deansgate.

Deansgate is better connected to Metrolink, so perhaps we should be focusing on renovating there to make it more appealing?

I re-hash my crackpot idea (instead of 15/16)

-Rebuild Piccadilly 13/14 to the West of the current platforms, straight and wide, with a West facing entrance. Close the existing 13/14.

-Similarly re-build Oxford Road platforms on the straight section between there and Deansgate, with entrances facing both ways.

-Close Deansgate.

Straight, wide, high capacity platforms to Thameslink-ify the Castlefield corridor.

 

[daodao]

I re-hash my crackpot idea (instead of 15/16)

-Rebuild Piccadilly 13/14 to the West of the current platforms, straight and wide, with a West facing entrance. Close the existing 13/14.

-Similarly re-build Oxford Road platforms on the straight section between there and Deansgate, with entrances facing both ways.

-Close Deansgate.

Straight, wide, high capacity platforms to Thameslink-ify the Castlefield corridor.

Of the three stations on the Castlefield line, Deansgate is much the easiest station to interchange with Metrolink. It also has reasonably sized uncluttered platforms. In my opinion it should not be closed/relocated, but any remaining fast longer distance services on the Castlefield line need not call at it.

Oxford Road station is well placed for bus routes or walking to higher education establishments and the city's main hospital complex on Oxford Road, so it also should not be closed/relocated.

 

[Ianno87]

Of the three stations on the Castlefield line, Deansgate is much the easiest station to interchange with Metrolink. It also has reasonably sized uncluttered platforms. In my opinion it should not be closed/relocated, but any remaining fast longer distance services on the Castlefield line need not call at it.

Oxford Road station is well placed for bus routes or walking to higher education establishments and the city's main hospital complex on Oxford Road, so it also should not be closed/relocated.

Oxford Road isn't actually that great. Short in distance terms, but the approach Road is very steep, and forget the staircase to Oxford Road itself if you can't manage stairs. Basically great only if you're an able bodied adult.

If relocated, you'd give it the "Urban Realm" treatment to keep its eastern entrance integrated into the local area. Heck, even a south-facing exit directly towards the University.

 

[YorksLad12]

I re-hash my crackpot idea (instead of 15/16)

-Rebuild Piccadilly 13/14 to the West of the current platforms, straight and wide, with a West facing entrance. Close the existing 13/14.

-Similarly re-build Oxford Road platforms on the straight section between there and Deansgate, with entrances facing both ways.

-Close Deansgate.

Straight, wide, high capacity platforms to Thameslink-ify the Castlefield corridor.

If it's crackpot ideas you're after:

• extend the Piccadilly shed southwards over the car park and Fairfield Street
• divert platforms 11 and 12 into that extension to provide two new through tracks
• close 14 to provide more platform space, use 13 for services terminating from the west and the track for 14 as an avoiding line or siding.

 

[WatcherZero]

If it's crackpot ideas you're after:

• extend the Piccadilly shed southwards over the car park and Fairfield Street

This was the original plan but the government pulled funding during construction for works after the Ordsall Chord.

 

[HSTEd]

You could eliminate Deansgates only advantage over Oxford Road with a walkway to St Peter's Square......

And Oxford road is better placed for non metrolink transport and has more platforms......

Although if we are going for crackpot schemes, we could take advantage of the likely collapse in commercial property demand from coronavirus and scrap the existing redevelopment of the University North Campus in favour of a brand new through station astride the Castlefield corridor with multiple 400m platforms and the capability to absorb basically all central Manchester rail traffic.....

 

[Purple Orange]

Why does anyone want to close any station in Manchester?

There are 6 central Manchester stations, each of which will play a part in providing a good s-bahn type service, as the network is de-cluttered of services to Metrolink and NPR.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Refurbishing Deansgate offers a cheaper short/medium term solution. It could become the main interchange station for metrolink, helping to relieve the pressure on platforms 13/14 at Piccadilly. Oxford Rd would be left in place, but with no (or minimal) trains calling.

We all know that once closed, it won't be reopened.

 

[AGH]

Deansgate gets regularly over crowded and gets closed when events are planned. The west bound platform is quite narrow and as curved makes alighting a challenge to all bar the able. There is room for a third line north of deansgate to Oxford Road (linking from the curve after it passes under the Met) and as we are speculating then that could serve platforms five and six at Oxford Road (the existing bays) for terminating services. New footbridge at Oxford Road and extend platform one west are simpler solutions. A university line on the Met from Salford, Spinningfields, St Peters Sq, Oxford Road to the university would massively increase connections. At Oxford Road, close the ramp, create a plateau and link the street by escalators and lifts is easily doable. Better option than Deansgate.

 

[Purple Orange]

Deansgate gets regularly over crowded and gets closed when events are planned. The west bound platform is quite narrow and as curved makes alighting a challenge to all bar the able. There is room for a third line north of deansgate to Oxford Road (linking from the curve after it passes under the Met) and as we are speculating then that could serve platforms five and six at Oxford Road (the existing bays) for terminating services. New footbridge at Oxford Road and extend platform one west are simpler solutions. A university line on the Met from Salford, Spinningfields, St Peters Sq, Oxford Road to the university would massively increase connections. At Oxford Road, close the ramp, create a plateau and link the street by escalators and lifts is easily doable. Better option than Deansgate.

I’d like to see a metrolink line down Oxford Road, but I don’t see where the capacity at St. Peter’s Sq could come from, withou there being an alternative route for the Altrincham, East Didsbury, Trafford Centre or Airport services.

 

[AGH]

Fifth or six platforms. Plenty of space, turns left down princess Street as is, John Dalton Street, Salford Central left up Chapel Street to Salford univ and then onto Salford crescent and Salford itself. Links the met then up to all major central stations. Any solution for Manchester's railways has to have the met as a key part of the solution.

 

[Ianno87]

Why does anyone want to close any station in Manchester?

Because you could arguably cover the exact same catchment of the 3 Castlefield stations today by reducing to two with some better thought given to the permeability of each remaining station with the surrounding area and onward transport connections.

 

[Purple Orange]

Because you could arguably cover the exact same catchment of the 3 Castlefield stations today by reducing to two with some better thought given to the permeability of each remaining station with the surrounding area and onward transport connections.

But you can’t. The city centre is growing at a fast pace and both stations have aspects the other can’t ad compensate for. Deansgate doesn’t cover the Oxford Rd corridor and Oxford Rd station doesn’t cover wider Castkefield, Chester Rd and the connections to the Metrolink network. Greater Manchester needs both stations and all trains should be stopping there, but because we have a stupid scenario where long distance services also use the line, we are trying to elevate Oxford Road station to something more than it really should be.

 

[Ianno87]

But you can’t. The city centre is growing at a fast pace and both stations have aspects the other can’t ad compensate for. Deansgate doesn’t cover the Oxford Rd corridor and Oxford Rd station doesn’t cover wider Castkefield, Chester Rd and the connections to the Metrolink network. Greater Manchester needs both stations and all trains should be stopping there, but because we have a stupid scenario where long distance services also use the line, we are trying to elevate Oxford Road station to something more than it really should be.

But that's the point - "Blackfriarise" Oxford Road shifting its centre of gravity westwards. Western entrance permeates towards Castlefield and Metrolink and the First Street development. Eastern entrance permeats towards the University and Oxford Road. Longer platforms fill the bit in the middle.

City centre development will never be properly supported by the current station accesses, which basically point the wrong way.

 

[Purple Orange]

But that's the point - "Blackfriarise" Oxford Road shifting its centre of gravity westwards. Western entrance permeates towards Castlefield and Metrolink and the First Street development. Eastern entrance permeats towards the University and Oxford Road. Longer platforms fill the bit in the middle.

City centre development will never be properly supported by the current station accesses, which basically point the wrong way.

I fail to see how that proposal offers anything better. A western entrance at Oxford Rd is no better than access to Deansgate and is in fact worse because there is zero interaction with metrolink. The line is being used in the wrong way and that needs to change - it really should be more like a metro line.

 

[Ianno87]

I fail to see how that proposal offers anything better. A western entrance at Oxford Rd is no better than access to Deansgate and is in fact worse because there is zero interaction with metrolink. The line is being used in the wrong way and that needs to change - it really should be more like a metro line.

You'd have some sort of elevated bridge across the Whitworth Street / Medlock Street junction to integrate with Metrolink.

I'm talking about if the Oxford Road platforms basically sat on the straight section of track alongside Whitworth Street West.

 

[Purple Orange]

You'd have some sort of elevated bridge across the Whitworth Street / Medlock Street junction to integrate with Metrolink.

I'm talking about if the Oxford Road platforms basically sat on the straight section of track alongside Whitworth Street West.

I think there is about as much chance of that happening as there is that Castlefield will be four-tracked. The emphasis in that area is redevelopment with new-build towers and a long footbridge across a major junction won’t happen at all. You’ve got to consider how big the population in that area is heading towards will be too, where a station a Deansgate will be very useful. The population of the city centre currently sits at 75,000 and it won5 be long until it hits 100,000, with many of those people living in the Deansgate, Castlefield area.

 

[Manutd1999]

Greater Manchester needs both stations and all trains should be stopping there, but because we have a stupid scenario where long distance services also use the line, we are trying to elevate Oxford Road station to something more than it really should be.

In my mind, that is the 'other' scenario. Run Castlefield as a local metro line, with all trains stopping at both Deansgate and Oxford Rd.

It certainly has some advantages, but requires all long-distance services (5x trains ph with option B+) to be moved somewhere else. I'm not sure that is realistically achievable, or even desirable, with current infrastructure. It would likely require HS3 (10 years + away) and even then, it's debateable whether that is the optimum solution.

Before then, we are going to have to live with a mix of services using Castlefield. In my mind, the best way to do that is for all trains to stop at either Deansgate or Oxford Rd, but not both, hence the debate about which one should be prioritised.

 

[HSTEd]

I’d like to see a metrolink line down Oxford Road, but I don’t see where the capacity at St. Peter’s Sq could come from, withou there being an alternative route for the Altrincham, East Didsbury, Trafford Centre or Airport services.

Well ultimately the tram doesn't have to run through St Peter's Square, it could run along Portland Street towards Picadilly, or most of the trams could simply terminate at Oxford Road, or at St Peter's Square as most capacity is not needed north of there - at least in the short term.

 

[Purple Orange]

In my mind, that is the 'other' scenario. Run Castlefield as a local metro line, with all trains stopping at both Deansgate and Oxford Rd.

It certainly has some advantages, but requires all long-distance services (5x trains ph with option B+) to be moved somewhere else. I'm not sure that is realistically achievable, or even desirable, with current infrastructure. It would likely require HS3 (10 years + away) and even then, it's debateable whether that is the optimum solution.

Before then, we are going to have to live with a mix of services using Castlefield. In my mind, the best way to do that is for all trains to stop at either Deansgate or Oxford Rd, but not both, hence the debate about which one should be prioritised.

Nothing can happen until NPR is delievered and we cant look at castlefield in the short term other than the B+ option. However the long term scenario is one that means closing Deansgate would be a stupid decision to take.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Oct 2021 ==

Well ultimately the tram doesn't have to run through St Peter's Square, it could run along Portland Street towards Picadilly, or most of the trams could simply terminate at Oxford Road, or at St Peter's Square as most capacity is not needed north of there - at least in the short term.

An Oxford Road line would need at least 10 tph with the ability to grow to 20 tph. This is where a tunnel for taking Altrincham and East Didsbury services would need to come in.

 

[HSTEd]

An Oxford Road line would need at least 10 tph with the ability to grow to 20 tph. This is where a tunnel for taking Altrincham and East Didsbury services would need to come in.

It needs those capacities on the University-Fallowfield-Didsbury section, sure, but I don't think it needs them north of Oxford Road railway station and/or Piccadilly/Piccadilly Gardens.

It is not necessary for such a tunnel to be constructed as a precondition of an Oxford Road line to be brought into operation.

The HS2 station plans provide a second tram route between Piccadilly Gardens and Piccadilly railway station, which would allow the existing route to provide some capacity for a tramway along Portland Street, and with some trams turning back either at All Saints Park or Oxford Road Railway station there is enough for a credible Oxford Road tramway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All this talking down of Oxford Road totally forgets that it is primarily a city centre destination, not an interchange (though the walk to St Peter's Square is hardly that long) - it serves one of Manchester's biggest employers (and educational establishments), namely both of the main Universities. The idea of closing it or moving it in such a way that would reduce access to Oxford Road itself would be absolutely nuts, though there would be gain from having a fully accessible entrance on the other side of the bridge given that that is the direction a good many people will be going from it.

If we turned Castlefield into an S-Bahn you'd simply have everything serving all three, just like it does in the very similar situation (albeit 4-tracked) in Hamburg of Altona-Dammtor-Hbf. Could you imagine Thameslink skip stopping in central London?

 

[43096]

If we turned Castlefield into an S-Bahn you'd simply have everything serving all three, just like it does in the very similar situation (albeit 4-tracked) in Hamburg of Altona-Dammtor-Hbf.

Hamburg isn't usefully 4 tracked though: there's a pair of S-bahn lines and a pair of long(er) distance lines, each incompatible with each other (different electrification systems). Some services (many IC/ICE services) don't call at Dammtor. Long term the plan is to build a new tunnel for the S-bahn over this stretch.

 

[Purple Orange]

All this talking down of Oxford Road totally forgets that it is primarily a city centre destination, not an interchange (though the walk to St Peter's Square is hardly that long) - it serves one of Manchester's biggest employers (and educational establishments), namely both of the main Universities. The idea of closing it or moving it in such a way that would reduce access to Oxford Road itself would be absolutely nuts, though there would be gain from having a fully accessible entrance on the other side of the bridge given that that is the direction a good many people will be going from it.

If we turned Castlefield into an S-Bahn you'd simply have everything serving all three, just like it does in the very similar situation (albeit 4-tracked) in Hamburg of Altona-Dammtor-Hbf. Could you imagine Thameslink skip stopping in central London?

Post HS2 & NPR , could an S-bahn network be implemented between Piccadilly, Oxford Road, Deansgate, Salford Central, Victoria and Salford Crescent that includes semi-fast services? I would assume that the semi-fasts would need to also call at all stops in the centre.

In my mind, I envisage a 3-spoke S-bahn network with branches radiating from those spokes, lets say the core lines are airport-stalybridge, Rochdale-Bolton and airport-Liverpool, with the semi-fasts dealing with Leeds-Liverpool and Airport-Scotland & Blackpool.