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Bizarre that EMR acted as though there was a full blockade on Saturday and had buses from Chesterfield and Sheffield to Stockport. Both TPE and Northern appeared to be running normally. Surely someone didn't misread the blockade dates
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Unless NR withdrew the block without much notice, remember planning teams are under pressure right now, it might have been easier for Northern and TPE than for EMR.
Picture for old South Yorkshire trainspotters, the railway triangle at Dore (lthough it's actually Bradway) this morning as the main worksite is being constructed.
Network Rail are progressing with delivery of the infrastructure interventions. Capacity limitations into both Manchester and Sheffield means that there are currently no plans to introduce the addition fast passenger train path, but completion of the upgrades will support freight movements and improve performance along the line.
Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) - working together to improve the lives of people in Greater Manchester - Bolton, Bury, Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford, Wigan
democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk
See agenda item 7, p.47
So after the Ordsall Chord fiasco (4tph promised, now reduced to only 1tph) an admission that the Hope Valley Capacity Upgrade (another part of the original Northern Hub programme) is also not going to deliver the promised capacity.
That wouldn't really work. Stockport isn't signalled to have passenger services reverse from the south. In any case the platforms have such high occupancy (particularly the northbound ones, as there are only 2 of them) that you would have to have a very tight turnaround. Hence, such a service would cause significant knock-on disruption as soon as there were any delays.
Shunting via the viaduct would encounter exactly the same issues as reversing in the platforms. A potential solution could be reversing at Heaton Norris Jn (on the line towards Denton) but this would require there to be a gap for a crossing move, both at Edgeley and at Heaton Norris. Not impossible, but again it adds to the complexity.
And if you're going to head up that way and have a decent-ish turnaround, it begs the question - why not just continue onto Victoria for example? Though highly implausible for its own reasons, I'd almost see that as the most likely option if an extra train were to run over the Hope Valley.
Greater Manchester Combined Authority (GMCA) - working together to improve the lives of people in Greater Manchester - Bolton, Bury, Manchester, Oldham, Rochdale, Salford, Stockport, Tameside, Trafford, Wigan
democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk
See agenda item 7, p.47
So after the Ordsall Chord fiasco (4tph promised, now reduced to only 1tph) an admission that the Hope Valley Capacity Upgrade (another part of the original Northern Hub programme) is also not going to deliver the promised capacity.
Those of us living beside the bottleneck could have told this was going to happen months ago. It's been a fairly open secret for some time. The Hope Valley Scheme announced on 2013 also included a 3rd loop at Chinley to allow 4 fast trains an hour. By 2015 that was scrapped because there weren't paths into Manchester.
At present we can't even achieve a regular 2 full length trains an hour, especially at busy weekends. That needs resolving first.
What might be more achievable would be to extend the current stopping service that reverses at New Mills after a 40 minute layover. It might only require one extra unit, use the new path created through the Hope Valley, and then platform space at Sheffield. It could skip stop most stations from New Mills into Sheffield to avoid freight services. The result would be 4 services an hour between the two cities giving cover for any issues feeding through from the longer distance extremities of the fast routes.
Any new hourly fast service would probably require at least 3 units and add congestion at both ends, particularly in Manchester. Extending such a new service beyond those two points would add yet more operational challenge
Those of us living beside the bottleneck could have told this was going to happen months ago. It's been a fairly open secret for some time. The Hope Valley Scheme announced on 2013 also included a 3rd loop at Chinley to allow 4 fast trains an hour. By 2015 that was scrapped because there weren't paths into Manchester.
At present we can't even achieve a regular 2 full length trains an hour, especially at busy weekends. That needs resolving first.
What might be more achievable would be to extend the current stopping service that reverses at New Mills after a 40 minute layover. It might only require one extra unit, use the new path created through the Hope Valley, and then platform space at Sheffield. It could skip stop most stations from New Mills into Sheffield to avoid freight services. The result would be 4 services an hour between the two cities giving cover for any issues feeding through from the longer distance extremities of the fast routes.
Any new hourly fast service would probably require at least 3 units and add congestion at both ends, particularly in Manchester. Extending such a new service beyond those two points would add yet more operational challenge
In the medium term, reorganising rolling stock to increase the capacity of the future Nottingham - Liverpool Lime Street service is probably a higher priority for the route than running any additional passenger train services. There will be a variety of options for achieving this but they don't really fit in this thread.
At least the works will improve the stopping service and make it much easier to plan the freight. Perhaps they'll enable half a minute's pathing allowance to come out here and there too, who knows.
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It really should have done, yes, especially given the tenacity of the department to call it a 'plan'. However, the reality of the situation for the Sheffield - Manchester and Sheffield - Leeds flows is that it just says that work will continue to explore improvements and that's that. The layout at Sheffield is very poor and there will still be some significant conflicts in the Dore area upon completion of the current work, and improving those, such as through grade separation on the approaches to Sheffield, will need big money.
At least the works will improve the stopping service and make it much easier to plan the freight. Perhaps they'll enable half a minute's pathing allowance to come out here and there too, who knows.
I very.much doubt that the business case for the Hope Valley scheme would have washed its face if the only benefits had been an improved stopping service, easier planning of freight and a few pathing allowances!
I very.much doubt that the business case for the Hope Valley scheme would have washed its face if the only benefits had been an improved stopping service, easier planning of freight and a few pathing allowances!
I very.much doubt that the business case for the Hope Valley scheme would have washed its face if the only benefits had been an improved stopping service, easier planning of freight and a few pathing allowances!
It was made primarily on freight paths and at the time the business case was prepared a third fast passenger path. The regular hourly stopper was an extra benefit.
However, the world moved on, Platforms 15/16 haven't happened so many other benefits are at best deferred. Some benefits may still be achieved in different ways. Not in full, but in part is better than nothing.
In the medium term, reorganising rolling stock to increase the capacity of the future Nottingham - Liverpool Lime Street service is probably a higher priority for the route than running any additional passenger train services. There will be a variety of options for achieving this but they don't really fit in this thread.
At least the works will improve the stopping service and make it much easier to plan the freight. Perhaps they'll enable half a minute's pathing allowance to come out here and there too, who knows.
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It really should have done, yes, especially given the tenacity of the department to call it a 'plan'. However, the reality of the situation for the Sheffield - Manchester and Sheffield - Leeds flows is that it just says that work will continue to explore improvements and that's that. The layout at Sheffield is very poor and there will still be some significant conflicts in the Dore area upon completion of the current work, and improving those, such as through grade separation on the approaches to Sheffield, will need big money.
There is a need to create more capacity generally in and around most major city centre stations. With only 2 tracks into Sheffield from both north and south and limited platform space the routes from there to Leeds or Manchester are the least of the problems
It's about 25 years old so must be about time for a total rebuild at 1st floor level above the railway. There are other businesses in the way too.
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When blockades start for the forthcoming work it is inevitable that passenger trains will be unable to run through or use Dore & Totley. Bamford station is probably also out of bounds and all in between.
TPE will presumably divert via Huddersfield and some bus substitution to Stockport, along with EMR who may also run buses from Chesterfield to Stockport.
Some Northern stopping services ran yesterday from Manchester to Edale, then reversed at Earles. A reasonable proposition on a Sunday when there's little freight. Some emergency minibuses then ran from Edale to Hope and Bamford where there's a bus turning point. I understand buses may then have run via Bradwell and Sparrowpit to Chinley and back towards Sheffield along the Hope Valley. That was a good effort - although intending rail users may not have known where and when to find the bus. Users will have had a long journey, but that was in an emergency. That option may not be possible when freight services are running.
Bus substitution for these stopping services is a nightmare. No buses run to Edale. Regular bus services from Castleton to Sheffield pick up at Hope, Bamford and Hathersage, but nothing runs across to Chinley. The 257 connects Hathersage to Grindleford village (not Padley where the station is) 2 hourly and the 65 from Grindleford to Sheffield, although neither starts early or runs in evenings. There is no direct bus between Grindleford and Dore. Frequent service buses run from Dore into Sheffield although they take 3-4 times as long as the train. Linking these all together makes for a very long bus and train ride.
Default to cars is standard local procedure for stoppers, and also Manchester bound TPE commuters from Dore. A few restricted to public transport use the buses plus some stalwart walkers. The result is that a minibus would usually be enough to cope.
Which reminds that the indicative hourly non skip stopping Northern local timetables for December 2022 will be very welcome, although it's possible some changes may have to be deferred until December 2023 when this scheme is complete.
Some Northern stopping services ran yesterday from Manchester to Edale, then reversed at Earles. A reasonable proposition on a Sunday when there's little freight. Some emergency minibuses then ran from Edale to Hope and Bamford where there's a bus turning point. I understand buses may then have run via Bradwell and Sparrowpit to Chinley and back towards Sheffield along the Hope Valley. That was a good effort - although intending rail users may not have known where and when to find the bus. Users will have had a long journey, but that was in an emergency. That option may not be possible when freight services are running.
The issue was with Totley tunnel so I don’t know why they didn’t run the trains to Grindleford instead of terminating at Edale. Stoppers have turned around at Grindleford before.
On the topic of buses, they’ve had rail replacement winning for decades along this line. I remember using it in the early 00s so you think people would know where the stops are now. The only iffy one was Bamford because you didn’t know if the bus would go into the station or just pick up at the tunnel. I’ve missed it before cuz of that
On the topic of buses, they’ve had rail replacement winning for decades along this line. I remember using it in the early 00s so you think people would know where the stops are now. The only iffy one was Bamford because you didn’t know if the bus would go into the station or just pick up at the tunnel. I’ve missed it before cuz of that
The 257 is now hourly between Sheffield, Bamford, Hathersage and Grindleford.
A change in the bus timetable means connections are poor.
The bus turnaround at Bamford station(to Manchester side) is used by all Hope Valley buses.
I was assured on here last year by various posters, that all the alternative train routes, services and replacement buses had been planned in detail already.
With clueless drivers going via the Woodhead, M1, Rotherham, Parkway and then Sheffield, I am rather sceptical and have been since I first arrived in Sheffield on the dark abandoned platform of the closed Victoria station in September 1973.
Then the Midland Region workers always blamed the Eastern Region for their inability to cooperate.
that sounds familiar... (my experience in LMR operating 1976 to about 1983.)
During or after engineering ops "that is our train in the booked workings, so we insist on riding in (on RRBs etc) so that we can work it back" - never mind that the single train was barely able to be worked within the shift! Our men could have worked it, then pass home in half the time...
That wouldn't really work. Stockport isn't signalled to have passenger services reverse from the south. In any case the platforms have such high occupancy (particularly the northbound ones, as there are only 2 of them) that you would have to have a very tight turnaround. Hence, such a service would cause significant knock-on disruption as soon as there were any delays.
Shunting via the viaduct would encounter exactly the same issues as reversing in the platforms. A potential solution could be reversing at Heaton Norris Jn (on the line towards Denton) but this would require there to be a gap for a crossing move, both at Edgeley and at Heaton Norris. Not impossible, but again it adds to the complexity.
Would it be possible to send an additional Stockport stopper via Hyde and run round via Denton?
Obviously run through to Victoria would be useful. I'd love to have the option to use Man Vic from Sheffield, the station is actually nearer Manchester city centre, than the awful walk down from Piccadilly.
Would it be possible to send an additional Stockport stopper via Hyde and run round via Denton?
Obviously run through to Victoria would be useful. I'd love to have the option to use Man Vic from Sheffield, the station is actually nearer Manchester city centre, than the awful walk down from Piccadilly.
The conflicts at Heaton Norris probably make this impossible. If a train is running from Stockport towards Denton it needs a gap in traffic on both Up lines to make the right turn. If Up trains are running out of course, as frequently happens as they emerge from the Castlefield corridor, then either at least one Up train has to be delayed further or the Denton train would need to sit on the Down Fast awaiting a path with other Down trains queueing behind it.
Victoria may be better for some parts of the city centre but Piccadilly is better for others. The route from Stockport to Victoria is over twice as far as to Piccadilly and has several slow junctions, so I suspect most of the city centre would still be reached in less time by taking a train to Piccadilly or Oxford Road and walking. The same may even be true from the Marple route.
Oxford Road is arguably the most Central station in Manchester and from December it is supposed to be served half hourly from Sheffield plus some peak hour calls at Dore
Oxford Road is arguably the most Central station in Manchester and from December it is supposed to be served half hourly from Sheffield plus some peak hour calls at Dore
I have suspicions about the indicative timetables given that we have difficulty operating the current one due to cut backs for several reasons. We know the Capacity Scheme wil deliver 3 fast and one slow path through the Hope Valley by December 2023 plus better freight paths.
Supposedly there'll be a regular stopper at fixed hourly intervals stopping all stations from December 2022. If that can be done without the scheme why hasn't it happened before? Unless there are going to be some major changes to freight paths that part can't happen in full and parts may not happen until a year later.
Currently both TPE and EMR struggle to operate their existing services. TPE aren't yet running beyond Manchester and EMR haven't enough trains. Castlefield is just another contributory factor. However an Oxford Road stop should help to spread loads. It's certainly a good option for getting a seat (or aboard) at busy times when heading east. Oxford Road is popular for university staff.
It has already been pointed out, twice, that there's an opportunity to extend a Manchester Piccadilly - New Mills Central service to Sheffield in lieu of a third service via Stockport. One could be all stations between Sheffield and New Mills Central, the other could just call at Chinley, Hathersage and Dore & Totley. There's obviously the need to extend platform 2c at Sheffield before this could be done however.
Some schedule gains might be possible from removing the Sprinter times from the Northern services between New Mills Central and Sheffield too.
It's probably much more important for the capacity allocated to the future Nottingham - Liverpool Lime Street service to be adequate in the future e.g. through use of five car 222s, or 3+2 class 170 sets.
Supposedly there'll be a regular stopper at fixed hourly intervals stopping all stations from December 2022. If that can be done without the scheme why hasn't it happened before? Unless there are going to be some major changes to freight paths that part can't happen in full and parts may not happen until a year later.
Comparing Northern's indicative December timetable with the RTT May timetable, they have a similar clockface pattern in most hours: all stations services arriving Sheffield xx06 and departing xx14.
However, the May timetable has several off pattern hours (more eastbound than westbound), with skip stopping in some of these hours. Whereas the December timetable retains the standard pattern in these hours.
I guess it remains to be seen if Northern manages to successfully bid for the paths needed in these hours, despite any conflicting Firm Rights the freight operators may hold. As far as I can see from the Network Rail SOAR website, there has not yet been a Track Access Consultation for Northern's December timetable.
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It has already been pointed out, twice, that there's an opportunity to extend a Manchester Piccadilly - New Mills Central service to Sheffield in lieu of a third service via Stockport.
What might be more achievable would be to extend the current stopping service that reverses at New Mills after a 40 minute layover. It might only require one extra unit, use the new path created through the Hope Valley, and then platform space at Sheffield. It could skip stop most stations from New Mills into Sheffield to avoid freight services. The result would be 4 services an hour between the two cities giving cover for any issues feeding through from the longer distance extremities of the fast routes.
But do we know that the third fast path delivered by the scheme will align satisfactorily with the existing Piccadilly - New Mills Central paths, while still leaving adequate freight paths through the Valley?
Presumably the extra westbound semi-fast would have to leave Sheffield just ahead of one of the via Stockport fasts, in order to get to New Mills only half an hour ahead of the all shacks stopper. Then three of the four Sheffield departures would be in quick succession - semi-fast, fast, stopper. Similarly three of the eastbound arrivals would be in quick succession.
This would not give much improvement in Generalised Journey Time, compared with just strengthening the three existing services to provide adequate capacity.
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democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk
