Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Ianno87]

A whole component of the scheme is "journey time improvement". Between Hazel Grove and Edgeley there's a 20mph speed increase

That's interesting - it's always been a pretty sedate plod and has never been obvious why.

A good example of "if you want to go fast, go slow less often".

The Hope Valley itself generally has a pretty good speed profile, so not surprised there's not much to be had there.

 

[Killingworth]

A whole component of the scheme is "journey time improvement". Between Hazel Grove and Edgeley there's a 20mph speed increase and other pockets of the route will see 5 or 10 mph increases.

But your 5 minute time saving is probably correct as some sections will see a speed reduction to even out peaks in the line speed profile.

Improvements from the scheme itself are likely to be supplemented over time by other detailed work that will eventually include signalling west from Earles Sidings. When? Anyone's guess. Currently nothing more is known other than vague statements of intent. South Pennine is not a priority.

Yesterday's loadings were probably not a good guide with the Manchester football derby making all morning westbound trains full and standing. However leisure demand has recovered very well and may already be up to pre-Covid. The difficulty is that commuting has collapsed. The need for three fast trains an hour has reduced. Two 6 coach trains per hour may well be enough. Leisure users are less concerned with speed.

The Hope Valley itself will not be the biggest problem once 2024 timetables operate. Delays east and west of Sheffield and Manchester will become even more critical for fast service punctuality. The availability of the Northern stopping Sheffield - Piccadilly will be very welcome, and it will be indirectly impacted by delays on the others. (A case could be made for extending the stopping New Mills service to Sheffield semi-fast to give 4 tph over the route, the slows not directly mpacted by events west of Manchester and east of Sheffield.)

Line speed improvements will all help but it's making the timetable work by tweeking many services across the country that will get us more reliable journeys.

 

[td97]

it's always been a pretty sedate plod and has never been obvious why.

The existing track between Edgeley and Hazel Grove is absolutely knackered so a lot of renewals are required to increase the line speed. For example almost the whole route from Edgeley to Hazel Grove in the down direction requires re-railing.

Leisure users are less concerned with speed.

The 5 minute time saving is important in making rail more competitive with other transport modes, principally car. But like you've said, not fully realised until a new timetable allows the Stockport-Manchester and Dore-Sheffield paths to be integrated with the middle portion.

 

[Class 170101]

Service frequency will also be important especially where a car is 'ready to go'.

 

[Ianno87]

Service frequency will also be important especially where a car is 'ready to go'.

Depends how long the journey is.

 

[Killingworth]

Service frequency will also be important especially where a car is 'ready to go'.

Poor service reliabilty and lack of train capacity overcome the benefit of a fast advertised timetable, particularly when you find your train doesn't run at all, is very late, or totally full when it arrives. Currently the biggest problem is that EMR don't have the rolling stock and crews to operate their full regular hourly service 7 days a week and with 4 carriages. Fortunately TPE are providing their half of the fast service with 6 cars on most of their hourly trains.

Northern's hourly stopping service may take 25 minutes longer end to end but is increasingly popular, especially now Pacers have gone and 195s more than keep to their timings. Check out comparitive single fares for the three on a Saturday morning to see another reason why they're so busy. Any significant problem on the other two can throw the load to them, and quite often does.

The stopping timetable could probably be tightened a little with 195s. TPE's heavyweight 185 timings could also be improved if they could fully use their 100mph speed capability, but with RA5 they're limited to 80, whereas EMR's lighter 158s seem to be RA2 and can run to their maximum 90. A mess!

Apparently significant parts of the Hope Valley line, probably almost all of it, would require heavier rails, better sleepers and trackbed work to make it suitable to run 185s faster. Running at 100 through the long, wet and old Totley, Cowburn and Disley tunnels seems an unlikely prospect. Further signalling improvements west of Bamford are supposed to be happening but will probably take a decade or more. None of this is part of the current scheme but needs to be given greater priority.

The franchise tendering process has led to TOCs making bids that are very difficult to operate reliably. That has contributed to this situation - but there must be another thread for that!

 

[Jozhua]

Thanks Killingworth!

Moderator note: This thread is for infrastructure updates, therefore speculative discussion has been moved to https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...city-and-frequency-on-the-hope-valley.221596/

 

[yorksrob]

Poor service reliabilty and lack of train capacity overcome the benefit of a fast advertised timetable, particularly when you find your train doesn't run at all, is very late, or totally full when it arrives. Currently the biggest problem is that EMR don't have the rolling stock and crews to operate their full regular hourly service 7 days a week and with 4 carriages. Fortunately TPE are providing their half of the fast service with 6 cars on most of their hourly trains.

Northern's hourly stopping service may take 25 minutes longer end to end but is increasingly popular, especially now Pacers have gone and 195s more than keep to their timings. Check out comparitive single fares for the three on a Saturday morning to see another reason why they're so busy. Any significant problem on the other two can throw the load to them, and quite often does.

The stopping timetable could probably be tightened a little with 195s. TPE's heavyweight 185 timings could also be improved if they could fully use their 100mph speed capability, but with RA5 they're limited to 80, whereas EMR's lighter 158s seem to be RA2 and can run to their maximum 90. A mess!

Apparently significant parts of the Hope Valley line, probably almost all of it, would require heavier rails, better sleepers and trackbed work to make it suitable to run 185s faster. Running at 100 through the long, wet and old Totley, Cowburn and Disley tunnels seems an unlikely prospect. Further signalling improvements west of Bamford are supposed to be happening but will probably take a decade or more. None of this is part of the current scheme but needs to be given greater priority.

The franchise tendering process has led to TOCs making bids that are very difficult to operate reliably. That has contributed to this situation - but there must be another thread for that!

They could do with knocking the ridiculous skip-stopping of Edale on the head.

 

[Killingworth]

They could do with knocking the ridiculous skip-stopping of Edale on the head.

The Manchester indicative timetables for December 2022 are now out for consultation. They include a Hope Valley service running at fixed hourly intervals throughout the day without skip stops, 7 days a week.

This will come as a pleasant surprise for Hope Valley users but there are one or two negatives. The biggest, if confirmed, will be the retiming of the train that currently arrives in Sheffield at 8.32 from the Valley to arrive half an hour later in the currently missing 9.05 arrival gap. Not much use for commuters getting to work for 9. The recently introduced train arriving at 8.04 is too early.
Both the current trains are equally popular.

Nevertheless most of us using these services should be delighted as we hadn't expected any changes before the Capacity Scheme is operational. But timetable is not yet confirmed.

 

[yorksrob]

The Manchester indicative timetables for December 2022 are now out for consultation. They include a Hope Valley service running at fixed hourly intervals throughout the day without skip stops, 7 days a week.

This will come as a pleasant surprise for Hope Valley users but there are one or two negatives. The biggest, if confirmed, will be the retiming of the train that currently arrives in Sheffield at 8.32 from the Valley to arrive half an hour later in the currently missing 9.05 arrival gap. Not much use for commuters getting to work for 9. The recently introduced train arriving at 8.04 is too early.
Both the current trains are equally popular.

Nevertheless most of us using these services should be delighted as we hadn't expected any changes before the Capacity Scheme is operational. But timetable is not yet confirmed.

Indeed. All the Hope Valley services deserve an hourly service.

It will be a step forward if it goes ahead.

 

[unlevel42]

The Manchester indicative timetables for December 2022 are now out for consultation. They include a Hope Valley service running at fixed hourly intervals throughout the day without skip stops, 7 days a week.

This will come as a pleasant surprise for Hope Valley users but there are one or two negatives. The biggest, if confirmed, will be the retiming of the train that currently arrives in Sheffield at 8.32 from the Valley to arrive half an hour later in the currently missing 9.05 arrival gap. Not much use for commuters getting to work for 9. The recently introduced train arriving at 8.04 is too early.
Both the current trains are equally popular.

Nevertheless most of us using these services should be delighted as we hadn't expected any changes before the Capacity Scheme is operational. But timetable is not yet confirmed.

The 08 32 arrival is too late for workers and students and I would have thought that the 08 04 arrival perfect for the nine o'clock starters, particularly for all the NHS workers, schools, colleges and UoS students and staff, those working in the Don Valley, Meadowhall even Rotherham.

 

[Killingworth]

The 08 32 arrival is too late for workers and students and I would have thought that the 08 04 arrival perfect for the nine o'clock starters, particularly for all the NHS workers, schools, colleges and UoS students and staff, those working in the Don Valley, Meadowhall even Rotherham.

That's not necessarily shown by actual use of both. Observation of both current trains in January 2020 and October 2021 showed higher numbers boarding the 8.32 at Dore. Mid 50s in 2020, down to mid 30s in October. The 8.04 arrival train was low 50s down to low 20s in October.

Numbers coming in from the Hope Valley are unclear, but the 8.04 arrival is a longer journey time thanks to extra waiting time at Dore West Junction between Grindleford and Dore.

 

[unlevel42]

Dore is not the Hope Valley.
Work places in Sheffield are not centred around the station.
Few people live in the vicinity of Dore station.
There are several alternatives for those living in the Dore station catchment which gets them where they want to be.
There are fewer alternatives for the residents of the Hope Valley. The new timings will enable those students and workers to get in before 9.00.

 

[Killingworth]

Dore is not the Hope Valley.
Work places in Sheffield are not centred around the station.
Few people live in the vicinity of Dore station.
There are several alternatives for those living in the Dore station catchment which gets them where they want to be.
There are fewer alternatives for the residents of the Hope Valley. The new timings will enable those students and workers to get in before 9.00.

The new timings will make it harder for many Hope Valley residents to get to jobs in Sheffield starting at 9. A train arriving at about 8.32 has been running since before WW2.

Maybe users of the services between Piccadilly and Sheffield have a better understanding of how it all works. These are the passenger numbers for 2019-20

Grindleford 64,024
Hathersage 73,200
Bamford 43,746
Hope 75,922
Edale 99,808
(Five stations in Peak District National Park 356,700)
Dore & Totley 219,236
Chinley 129,220

Currently Northern stopping trains arrive in Sheffield from the Hope Valley at 6.59, 8.05, 8.32 and 10.06. From December 2022 that is proposed to become 6.59, 8.05, 9.06 and 10.06. Neat for timetabling but not for commuters into Sheffield from the Hope Valley, although the later timing will please some including me.

The situation at Dore is a red herring although their passenger numbers help to support the route. As long as EMR's intended stop at Dore at 8.28 is on time they'll be covered (in the past it has been unreliable). It takes well over 30 minutes to cover the 4 miles into Sheffield by bus or car at rush hour, 8 minutes by train.

But wer'e digressing from the scheme, although the intended changes illustrate how capacity can be increased with attention to timetabling.

On the ground Volker/Story JV preparatory work camps are now well established at both Dore and Bamford. There were public communication events at Dore and Hathersage earlier this week. Most materials will be coming in and out by rail. It will be delivered on time.

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder to stick to discussing Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates in this thread please.

People are more than welcome to create threads to discuss any spin-off topics and may wish to link to them from this thread.

Thanks

 

[Killingworth]

For any who have doubts about progress, JCBs, spades and chainsaws are now on the ground at both Dore and Bamford. Preparatory work is now underway at both sites with the main earth moving work scheduled to start by April. The Bamford loop will run from the end of the station platform towards Jaggers Lane bridge in Hathersage, seen here in the distance.

Looks easy, but it isn't clear from this picture that there are three rail over bridges to be widened with additional work to widen cuttings and embankments.

 

[Killingworth]

Work to build the main construction compound at Dore (on the railway triangle that includes Dore Tunnel) is soon to start in preparation for the main contract commencing in April and should be fully completed by September 2023. The 2 year period referred to in this letter will include time for landscape restoration work.

The artists impression is somewhat misleading as they have to build an access slope down to the track at Dore West Junction, top right. There is very little vegetation in that corner other than broom. Local residents might have considered positioning this compound nearer to the junction with access closer to the line to the right. It's more level, held a previous access track and the saplings aren't over 30 years old.

The material on the railway triangle site is spoil dug from Twentywell Sick cutting and Bradway Tunnel, dumped there 150 years ago with vegetation only becoming profuse in the last 30-40 years.

a

 

[M60lad]

Does anybody know what the nature of the engineering works are that's going on over the next couple of weekends/Sundays on Hope Valley Line? And are there any more closures planned for this year?

 

[D365]

Does anybody know what the nature of the engineering works are that's going on over the next couple of weekends/Sundays on Hope Valley Line? And are there any more closures planned for this year?

Platform extensions at Romiley station. Not linked to the Dore upgrade, and I’m not sure if there will be more weekend closures needed after this month.

Work begins on Romiley station upgrades - Marketing Stockport

Work has begun to extend platforms at Romiley train station, allowing longer trains to serve the line from Manchester to Marple, New Mills and Sheffield.

marketingstockport.co.uk

 

[Killingworth]

Platform extensions at Romiley station. Not linked to the Dore upgrade, and I’m not sure if there will be more weekend closures needed after this month.

Work begins on Romiley station upgrades - Marketing Stockport

Work has begun to extend platforms at Romiley train station, allowing longer trains to serve the line from Manchester to Marple, New Mills and Sheffield.

marketingstockport.co.uk

Can't see why Hope Valley trains should be cancelled all the way from Sheffield due to work at Romiley. I know these trains are crewed and based at the Manchester end but Chinley and New Mills must be accessible. Maybe there's other work in the Hope Valley too.

The bus substitution service will be unused. At Dore the CIS is out of order and there is no signage to tell users to go for a bus. I've just sent 2 from the platform to the stop, befire I realised it was 10 minutes after bus was supposed to leave! One had a car, the other was going into Sheffield and could catch a regular bus, in half an hour.

There are a number of likely closures coming up in the next 18-24 months, mostly late night and weekends. The main Hope Vallwy work doesn't start until April. However preparation is inder way from 3csites at Dore, Hathersage and Banford.

All was quiet at Dore today.

 

[D365]

Can't see why Hope Valley trains should be cancelled all the way from Sheffield due to work at Romiley. I know these trains are crewed and based at the Manchester end but Chinley and New Mills must be accessible. Maybe there's other work in the Hope Valley too.

Probably the most likely explanation - the bus replacement services are from Sheffield to New Mills and Sheffield to Stockport.

 

[_toommm_]

Probably the most likely explanation - the bus replacement services are from Sheffield to New Mills and Sheffield to Stockport.

According to NRE it’s in the New Mills area, although that may be an oversimplification - I suspect more people have heard of New Mills versus Romiley. They’re only two stops apart after all (or three if your train stops at Strines):

Welcome to the Official source for UK trains | National Rail

You've found the gateway to Britain's national rail network. The portal to rail travel, including train times information, fares enquiries; promotions; and ticket info.

m.nationalrail.co.uk

 

[Dr Hoo]

Seen quite a few Rail Replacement Buses in the Hope area (operated by Andrews coaches - largely a local school transport provider so spare resources at the weekend). They were all virtually empty.

 

[Killingworth]

Probably the most likely explanation - the bus replacement services are from Sheffield to New Mills and Sheffield to Stockport.

Whatever, a train of empty Cemex wagons went along the valley just after 3 on way to Peak Forest so any work there must have finished.

I was wrong, however. A very small number were using the bus substitute service this afternoon - 3 at Dore.

 

[Snow1964]

The 08 32 arrival is too late for workers and students and I would have thought that the 08 04 arrival perfect for the nine o'clock starters, particularly for all the NHS workers, schools, colleges and UoS students and staff, those working in the Don Valley, Meadowhall even Rotherham.

The danger with making one train an ideal commuter time, and removing alternatives is might have to run it as 12-15 carriages to carry everyone.

Then you really do need a capacity upgrade, but in form of longer platforms rather than closer headways. Doesn’t normally prove to be be cost efficient to lengthen platforms for one train per day.

 

[edwin_m]

Slogging from Edale up to Rushup in a RRB must be "interesting" especially if it snows. Do they also put on a more direct one via the Snake or the A623?

 

[D365]

Slogging from Edale up to Rushup in a RRB must be "interesting" especially if it snows. Do they also put on a more direct one via the Snake or the A623?

One assumes that the Stockport RRB goes via Snakes Pass (A57) or Woodhead (A628).

 

[Killingworth]

Slogging from Edale up to Rushup in a RRB must be "interesting" especially if it snows. Do they also put on a more direct one via the Snake or the A623?

It's a minibus to Hope.

 

[MadMarsupial]

One assumes that the Stockport RRB goes via Snakes Pass (A57) or Woodhead (A628).

Snake Pass ( A 57 ) is often closed in winter conditions and brings you out at Glossop which is inconvenient for Chinley. A623 via Tideswell crossroads and Chapel en le Frith is the more sensible route.

 

[D365]

Snake Pass ( A 57 ) is often closed in winter conditions and brings you out at Glossop which is inconvenient for Chinley. A623 via Tideswell crossroads and Chapel en le Frith is the more sensible route.

There are two separate RRBs, according to the departure boards at SHF. I'm talking about the fast to Stockport.