As many have pointed out on numerous threads, 5 car 222s (currently 240 seats) would be a capacity decrease over 4 car 158s (currently 284 seats). Even if you were to refit the interior of the 222s similar to the Lumo 803s (mostly airline seating and very few luggage stacks), you would be around 280-290 seats, so no real increase in capacity but an increase in operating costs.
A 222 is still significantly more flexible than the locomotive hauled sets intended for use on the route, for example it's possible to use them in 6 and 7 car form. A 170 based solution might be easier to achieve, but it wouldn't be much use at providing more seats either. Of course if the stops at Urmston, Irlam and Birchwood can be put into the Nottingham - Liverpool service instead of the Cleethorpes - Liverpool service that might might be more effective a use of their extra standing space. That's certainly going to be a total nightmare with those locomotive hauled train sets.
I don't think there is scope to put any extra stops into the Liverpool - Nottingham services, because of pathing constraints at both Edge Hill and Piccadilly.
The same constraints apply to both of the services between Liverpool and Sheffield, so in the long term swapping the stops between them so that they take closer to the same time is feasible, but only if they're able to perform similarly well. Which as Sprinters they're probably not. Either way, they will probably still use two and four car 158s in 2024. The point that was being made was actually that replacing the 158s is, for various reasons, going to be much more beneficial than trying to run another service in addition.
If they were made slower by adding extra stops, without considering other constraints, then this would probably help performance on the CLC because there would be less time difference between the fasts and the stoppers. However, even if the timetable could be re-cast to remove conflicts between the new timings and other services either end, there would still be issues such as turnaround time at Lime Street.
Presumably the effective nationalisation of railways now taking place will facilitate a return to the tried and tested method of BR, and passengers will be priced off the system rather than investment in required infrastructure.
If it were London, all trains would be lengthened to 240m before even considering the business case for more track.
You've kind of answered your own question here. Whatever route they take, everything needs to funnel into Piccadilly. And anything continuing towards Liverpool would have to cross the Piccadilly throat or take a roundabout route via Manchester Victoria. Also Sheffield Victoria would give far worse connections, either within Sheffield or to other train services, and split the Manchester service between two stations (as Manchester Victoria would split the Sheffield service) so passengers don't know which station to go to and don't have the option of taking the next available service when the one they planned to use is disrupted.
Mind you there are ongoing issues for vehicular traffic between Sheffield and Manchester with the X57 Snake Pass closed between Ladybower and Glossop owing to a number of landslips caused by recent storms!We aren't doing very well on this route at present.
After the departure of Pacers, the introduction of 195s and the resolution of Northern's industrial action that side is going a lot better.
EMR's rolling stock issues rumble on, but their industrial action issues seem to be behind them. Normal timetabled trains may run again before much longer - but not yet. Two almost down but memories linger with users.
TPE now have industrial relations issues. Trains may, or may not, run.
in recent days the weather has decided it too has disputes with the railway, today a bridge near Edale so no trains again since about 14.30 and for the rest of the day.
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Indeed, a friend waiting there reported no staff present at New Mills either. All credit to Network Rail for getting the line open so quickly, but communication from Northern seems very poor.
We aren't doing very well on this route at present.
After the departure of Pacers, the introduction of 195s and the resolution of Northern's industrial action that side is going a lot better.
EMR's rolling stock issues rumble on, but their industrial action issues seem to be behind them. Normal timetabled trains may run again before much longer - but not yet. Two almost down but memories linger with users.
TPE now have industrial relations issues. Trains may, or may not, run.
in recent days the weather has decided it too has disputes with the railway, today a bridge near Edale so no trains again since about 14.30 and for the rest of the day.
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Leaving aside the gaps due to skip stopping in the standard timetable and recent weather related breaks in service the biggest problem is the train that would normally run from Piccadilly about 12.49 and return from Sheffield at 14.14. Combined with those skip stops on previous and following services that leaves gaps of three and a half hours in supposedly hourly service if you hit that period.
Subject to the usual caveats, the May timetable in RTT does have a 1249 from Piccadilly that calls at all stations through the valley, as do the 1149 and 1349. The only eastbound skip stoppers appear to be the 1949 (skips Edale, Bamford and Grindleford) and the 2122 (Edale, Grindleford).
Amazing! Thank you for this update.
If Whaley Bridge needs avoiding and there is a demand on a Friday night/Saturday/Sunday they can go via Chinley to Stockport on a much quiter line, and then onwards.
The bridge in question is the main road just south of Whaley station and it has not been rebuilt so the answer must be yes.
The problem may be more about how they get to their final destinations elsewhere on the network. Probably difficult to find 60mph paths from the Manchester area to the London area for anything that normally goes east and uses the MML. However, if it's only a few days and known in advance it would probably be feasible to stockpile or organise temporary road transport. There is no time-critical intermodal freight affected.
As always, the constraining factor will not be the path along the Hope Valley but further afield. eg, it will be possible to serve Attercliffe from the west via New Mills South jcn using a currently spare path towards Manchester. The problems will occur linking that path across the Pennines on a northern route and then down to Sheffield.
