High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[Nym]

do we really need a dedicated HS2 line north of birmingham for manchester?

If speed and capacity is needed 4 tracking winsford-warrington would surely be a good option. the line is quite straight. Manchester and liverpool services could join the chat moss. there is lots of brown belt land around manchester victoria and salford for a dedicated station there and would allow journeys to continue furthur north - leeds etc. A drawback with piccadilly is that it is a terminus.

All this land around Manchester Victoria and Salford, where is it? And what do you need to go through to get to it, oh, and how will you connect it to Piccadilly or Victoria?

It would also mean going a rather long way round to Manchester, and running into the side of rail services where there is the least spare capacity, and spare land near where you can connect to existing stations.

If you have a 'dedicated' HS2 station that isn't anywhere near any other stations, such as on the land between Deal St Jcn and Ordstall Lane Jcn (That I have seen mentioned) quite aside from having little or no available routes without masses of demolition, it's nowhere near any other major stations, Salford Central doesn't count!

Said it before and I'll say it again, in Manchester the only space large enough and close enough to an existing major station is the Baring St industrial area, formally housed dangerous industry so probably can't ever be used for housing, is definitely brown belt, right next to Piccadilly, has available land for an approach (tunneled out from Longsight to the Fallowfeild Loop, then a short tunnel out to near Sale Waterpark, then following the old M60 route through Roundhorn Ind Estate (Would loose about 10 commercial / private premises and some industrial units, easy to relocate industry!) and into the Manchester South Parkway / Manchester Airport station N of the M56 Spur where the jetparks car parks are (lets just hope this is decided and reserved before much of the Manchester Enterprise Zone is planned and erected there) with a Y junction NW of the M56, a little bit more tunnel to meet up with the old trackbed over though West Timperley (Still in use for freight) and use the embankments in place to cross the ship canal and then form up Manchester West Parkway station between the Chat Moss and CLC routes, near the Birchwood junction on the M62 for easy vehicle access, and then branches provided onto the Chat Moss for Liverpool and WCML for services further North. To complete the Delta junction into Manchester, a branch from Manchester around Sale Water Park will run around the North of Ashton upon Mersey and meet the main route to Manchester W Parkway near Carrington and Patrington at the ship canal crossing, where space is also provided for a D2/3M roadway on the same bridge.

Onwards as HS2 can continue on some disused trackbeds around Wigan, would take out Lowton Business Park and some housing unfortunately, or you could make a curveyer route.

Initally simply linking into the WCML and Chat Moss via the well, Chat Moss...
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The standard class carriages of a TGV Duplex can accomodate 80 passengers (Except for the end carriage, R8, which seats 92), although each carriage is only 18.7 metres long.
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An 11 carriage 390 will have 444 standard class seats (plus 6 tip-up) and 145 first class seats, so a total of 589 seats.

A 12-car 350/1 formation would have 606 standard class seats (plus 27 tip-up) and 72 first class seats.

Ta. Point remains that an HS2 captive unit will carry more passengers than a WCML unit.

 

[sprinterguy]

Ta. Point remains that an HS2 captive unit will carry more passengers than a WCML unit.

Yep, very much so.

 

[Nym]

And in terms of staffing, cost the same to run, it's all down to the unit running costs (that should be lower) and the track costs.

 

[HSTEd]

Continental Gauge is too narrow for 3+2 seating and the question is whether anyone would use the seat, if these units are going to cost so much less to staff and crew per passenger anyway (thanks to doubledeck and 400m lengths) we should be willing to fit 2+2 seating even with wider seats.

Additionally Im not sure we will see entirely double deck formations, what with the AGV being single deck and no sign of a double deck derivative on the horizon.

 

[LE Greys]

Continental Gauge is too narrow for 3+2 seating and the question is whether anyone would use the seat, if these units are going to cost so much less to staff and crew per passenger anyway (thanks to doubledeck and 400m lengths) we should be willing to fit 2+2 seating even with wider seats.

Additionally Im not sure we will see entirely double deck formations, what with the AGV being single deck and no sign of a double deck derivative on the horizon.

We have 3+2 on 317s over here, but I wouldn't want to be crammed into the middle seat for too long a journey.

 

[HSTEd]

We have 3+2 on 317s over here, but I wouldn't want to be crammed into the middle seat for too long a journey.

Yes, and I dont like it here either

Ofcourse since the journey on the captive trains will be so short (1hr20 max to Leeds and all that) we could probably justify the narrower seats with 3+3 seating and one class throughout..... wouldn't go down too well with the rich and powerful though.

 

[deltic]

All this land around Manchester Victoria and Salford, where is it? And what do you need to go through to get to it, oh, and how will you connect it to Piccadilly or Victoria?

.

There is quite a bit of land to west of Salford Central - the cost of getting into that part of Manchester is far cheaper than tunnelling in towards Piccadily. Northern Hub will see Salford Central far better connected to south Manchester with a large increase in services and if connected to a HS2 station it can be turned (back?) into a 4 platform station. Also not far from central Manchester. Not being on Metrolink is a major drawback but could be linked to network instead of building second cross city link.


With more money being chucked at not upsetting tory voters in the south (ie tunnelling under the Chilterns) expect to see the Birmingham-north section delivered on the cheap - ie no stations in Sheffield, Nottingham or Derby and cheapest ways to get into central Leeds and Manchester.

None of the HS2 stations are going to be grand mega platform stations - they are going to be built on the cheap with 4 platforms at most probably with lots of offices on top of them to help pay for them.

 

[HSTEd]

I expect we wont even get that, we will get bus shelters probably.
With the budget predictions I think the second stage of HS2 is looking shakier again.

 

[Nym]

So to save less than £1bn they'd put it somewhere where passengers will travel from piccadilly anyway since it's too far from where everyone travels from and connects at, hence making the £10bn+ extension useless, for the sake of £1bn!
It doesn't NEED to be a tunneled approach to Longsight (to access Baring St) but would be preferable, and not very long tunnel sections, if you don't have tunnels, you'd be running via a 4 tracked Styal line, out to the airport station, but would change the layout there and make a delta connection to run fast services through more difficult compared to the London end being at Wilmslow and the 'North' end at Alty.

Salford Central will only ever have interchange and services to the Chat Moss or Windsor Bridge Junction. It would severly limit the connectivity, compared to running into Baring St. (Mayfeild area). And looking at it, the approaches to get into that part of Salford is just as hard to get into Baring St Ind. Area in Manchester

This has a clear route to Longsight for additional viaduct next to the existing viaduct.
From Longsight there are of course a number of options, you could loop out onto the Fallowfeild Loop, demolish sainsburies and then have a short tunnel to Sale Water Park area. You could tunnel directly from Longsight out to Sale W Park. Christ you could double deck Stockport Viaduct and run out that way.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Recently travelled on the Chiltern railway service from Marylebone to Birmingham Moor St. Both stations are more pleasant to use than their respect Euston and New St counterparts. Chiltern train seating has less of the toast rack feel of the pendolinos. The journey was 20 minutes longer than VT and the fare was £7.50 one way.

Chiltern Railways is the way to go from London to Brum !

However, Euston has much better tube links and New Street is a far better interchange station which in my view is just as important. Also 20 minutes is a big deal if you're wanting to get home! As stations go Moor Street is nice enough but the walk to New Street is a pain.

 

[deltic]

As I understand it Mayfield was ruled out a long time ago - problems with fitting it on site due to Northern Hub proposals - conflicts with classic approaches to platforms 15 & 16 or something like that.

A key problem HS2 has is it that it has deliver the scheme for a fixed budget and to keep within that budget everything but the basics have been thrown out

 

[Nym]

deltic, I'm not saying use mayfeild though, I'm saying use the Baring Street Industrial Area, and the approaches would sit independant of the classic lines, on a viaduct next to the existing one, this would have extra tracks for the styal line, but the HS lines would sit independant.

Northern Hub doesn't touch anything SW of 15/16 any more, so if the approach immerges from a tunnel at Manchester Intl. Depot or from a Viaduct looping onto the Fallowfeild Loop (Demolishing Sainsburies in Fallowfeild, short tunnel to get out at the other end towards Birchwood and Manc Airport via Sale Water Park)

 

[dalmahoyhill]

HSTEd/ LE Grays

Japanese Shinkansen services are 3x2 and pretty spartan and because the legroom is so generous i didnt really mind.

Shinakensen stations look like bristol parkway!!! But they are clean and efficient. Grand stations in all the major HS2 cities would be nice but i am quite happy with something basic if it keeps the capital cost down. As long as its covered from the elements

Must say i do agree with you on extending the chilterns tunnel. A sop to rich tories in the 'shires'. £500 mill could get twin track to connect to HS1

 

[Nym]

Or lengthen HS2 in Staffordshire to bypass Stafford and connect in at Norton Bridge and Stone...

 

[jopsuk]

HSTEd/ LE Grays

Japanese Shinkansen services are 3x2 and pretty spartan and because the legroom is so generous i didnt really mind.

As far as I can find, Shinkansen stock is up to 3430mm wide. All the UIC loading gauges (from berne upwards) are 3150mm wide- that extra 200-300mm can make a fair bit of difference when it come to getting an extra seat in. They have some Shinkansen that have 3+3- no doubt the average Japaenses person being smaller than the average european helps?

UK passenger stock is mainly either 2800mm (most 20m long stock such as commuter EMUs, mark 2s etc) or 2700mm (23m long stock such as mark 3 and 4, many DMUs).

Anyone know how wide the Channel Tunnel shuttle car carrying stock is?

 

[LE Greys]

HSTEd/ LE Grays

Japanese Shinkansen services are 3x2 and pretty spartan and because the legroom is so generous i didnt really mind.

Shinakensen stations look like bristol parkway!!! But they are clean and efficient. Grand stations in all the major HS2 cities would be nice but i am quite happy with something basic if it keeps the capital cost down. As long as its covered from the elements

Must say i do agree with you on extending the chilterns tunnel. A sop to rich tories in the 'shires'. £500 mill could get twin track to connect to HS1

I'd prefer to see Brackley Central reopened with some of the SE high-speed services extended through to Oxford or Birmingham, but that's unlikely. The interchange factor is more important than the style of stations, it's the best way to gain passengers.

 

[Badger]

I just spent a while working on a really elaborate plan for Curzon Street station only to lose it to a power cut.

Anyway, before I draw it again, basically my idea was for Curzon Street to have classical platforms as well as high speed platforms. Various trains running that way would call there, much like for Birmingham International or something.

There's room, clearly, however the issue is these platforms would have to be accessed from the existing classical lines. I don't know much about trains, is there any reason a station couldn't be added at Curzon Street for classical trains? Proximity to New Street, etc?

Map of the area:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....l/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/route/bhammap07.pdf

I would basically shift everything North a bit, and then put in two through classical platforms where the marker says "+107.3". This would give Fazeley/Curzon Street eight platforms, six high speed, two to connect to New Street.

I think that ideally high speed trains would serve Birmingham New Street for the Interchange. Obviously this can never be done, and so a compromise has to be reached. The current plans... well, Fazeley Street is a bit of a bad location accessability wise. (Sure, it's by Moor Street, but how many people using Moor Street are actually continuing to London who wouldn't instead choose Chiltern?)

Anyway. There could even be the closest platforms to the concourse in New Street opened up as platforms specifically serving Fazeley Street. To get the needed capacity for this perhaps Fazeley could even have a terminal classical platform(s) - Birmingham to Stansted/Leicester could terminate at Fazeley. Whichever XC train passes through Solihull station, could terminate at Moor Street instead of New Street. (I believe it is a through service however so that's impractical unless the other end could be picked up via Snow Hill).

I don't know, am I talking crap, or could a new Classical+HighSpeed station work here?

 

[LE Greys]

I just spent a while working on a really elaborate plan for Curzon Street station only to lose it to a power cut.

Anyway, before I draw it again, basically my idea was for Curzon Street to have classical platforms as well as high speed platforms. Various trains running that way would call there, much like for Birmingham International or something.

There's room, clearly, however the issue is these platforms would have to be accessed from the existing classical lines. I don't know much about trains, is there any reason a station couldn't be added at Curzon Street for classical trains? Proximity to New Street, etc?

That might work, and would have the added advantage of clearing out New Street. It's not good for the important local services, particularly Cross City, but might help to terminate some eastward-running trains there, possibly including the London Midland services from Euston plus the ones you mention.

Map of the area:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....l/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/route/bhammap07.pdf

I would basically shift everything North a bit, and then put in two through classical platforms where the marker says "+107.3". This would give Fazeley/Curzon Street eight platforms, six high speed, two to connect to New Street.

I think that ideally high speed trains would serve Birmingham New Street for the Interchange. Obviously this can never be done, and so a compromise has to be reached. The current plans... well, Fazeley Street is a bit of a bad location accessability wise. (Sure, it's by Moor Street, but how many people using Moor Street are actually continuing to London who wouldn't instead choose Chiltern?)

Having seen the "Birmingham Central" plans from a few years ago, it might be possible, but would be pricey with all the junction remodelling needed. This just might help get somewhere near that. The trams might be useful as well.

Anyway. There could even be the closest platforms to the concourse in New Street opened up as platforms specifically serving Fazeley Street. To get the needed capacity for this perhaps Fazeley could even have a terminal classical platform(s) - Birmingham to Stansted/Leicester could terminate at Fazeley. Whichever XC train passes through Solihull station, could terminate at Moor Street instead of New Street. (I believe it is a through service however so that's impractical unless the other end could be picked up via Snow Hill).

Well it's possible, but I was under the impression that the XC service ran right through. It would be an awful lot better if Snow Hill-Wolverhampton was available, but there is now a tram line in the way.

I don't know, am I talking crap, or could a new Classical+HighSpeed station work here?

A pity the Birmingham Central idea is probably impossible. It would be much better if we could just combine the lot in one station, but that simply cannot work without far too many changes.

 

[Badger]

Well, I've redrawn it anyway. I'm probably grossly wrong (especially due to elevation issues, which I forgot about).. but hey, it's just a bit of fun.

http://bb.ohsk.net/uploads/curzonst.png
Source: http://webarchive.nationalarchives....l/pi/highspeedrail/hs2ltd/route/bhammap07.pdf

 

[sprinterguy]

I don't know, am I talking crap, or could a new Classical+HighSpeed station work here?

Personally, I think that you're right on the money here. Since the route plans for HS2 into Birmingham were first published, it has been my strongly held belief that the Curzon Street station should act as an interchange between HS2 and classic local and regional rail services, and potentially do away with New Street altogether.

Of course, some of the success of the new station at attracting custom from local rail journeys would be dependant on expansion of city centre land uses across the Moor Street Queensway, as the Curzon Street station is not as conveniently placed as New Street for commercial and retail activities.

As a transport interchange however, it would be considerably better than New Street currently is. I envisage a shared concourse with Moor Street (Probably two-tier to cater for the height difference, which would give a nice balcony area at the level of the Moor Street platforms stretching out over the Curzon Street concourse with space for bars and shops, much like the balcony at Piccadilly), so that there would be interchange oportunities between all the trains on the New Street lines, both classic and HS2, and all the trains on the Snow Hill Lines.

Additionally, the proximity of Moor Street Queensway means that the site would already be better placed for access to local bus services, upon which the majority of Birmingham's public transport users depend, than New Street is, but additionally the Midland Metro extension to New Street will see the plethora of local bus services that currently use Corporation Street and Stephenson Street relocated en masse to the periphery of the city centre, meaning that by the time the New Street redevelopment is completed, it's local transport links will be considerably worse than they already are, while the importance of Moor Street Queensway as a bus interchange will have grown in significance.

If you push the station out right up against Curzon Street then there would be space for quite a few classic line platforms, especially if you reduced the number of HS2 platforms down to, say, four. However, I've had a go at mapping out such a station, and unfortunately there isn't quite enough space available for a number of platforms that would match the capacity of New Street, certainly not if you plan for a decent amount of circulating space (Something that is quite lacking at New Street) on the platforms.

And so unfortunately it's back to the drawing board with that idea. However, I don't see why the concourse of Curzon Street HS2 station couldn't be combined with the concourse of Moor Street regardless.

My favourite compromise (Compromise in terms of local transport access to the HS2 station, but I have a feeling not in terms of cost) is to build a tunnel from Five Ways to Duddeston for the Cross City line, with an underground station beneath the Bullring that would have access to both New Street and the combined concourse of Curzon Street HS2/Moor Street stations.
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Whichever XC train passes through Solihull station, could terminate at Moor Street instead of New Street. (I believe it is a through service however so that's impractical unless the other end could be picked up via Snow Hill).

Bear in mind that the Crosscountry network is quite likely to be radically re-engineered following the opening of HS2 up to Leeds and Manchester, so your idea might not be as impractical as you might think. I think that it's quite likely that Crosscountry will be split down into a number of shorter, regional journeys, many of which could be absorbed by the relevant "local" franchise, so I reckon it's not impossible that the current Manchester to Bournemouth service, or perhaps the Newcastle to Reading one, could end up being cut down to start from Birmingham, and hence a start from Moor Street would be entirely feasible. A Birmingham to Reading service in particular would, I think, sit quite comfortably with the Chiltern franchise.

 

[Batman]

My favourite compromise (Compromise in terms of local transport access to the HS2 station, but I have a feeling not in terms of cost) is to build a tunnel from Five Ways to Duddeston for the Cross City line, with an underground station beneath the Bullring that would have access to both New Street and the combined concourse of Curzon Street HS2/Moor Street stations.

That was ruled out many years ago on cost grounds.

That was back in the days when some trains from the Snow Hill lines used to run via New Street.

I think that these trains were all diverted via Snow Hill so that the Cross City line could go from 4tph to 6tph.

And the plans for re-opening the Camp Hill line were revised to add in the curve at Bordesley, so trains will terminate at Moor Steet, instead of New Street.

But even if the tunnell is ever built, you will never be able to have more than 6tph on the Cross City unless you four track the line from the Southern portal of the tunnel to King's Norton, rebuild Five Ways, Univerity, Selly Oak and Bournville stations and build dive-unders at King's Norton, Longbridge and possibly Barnt Green.
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I've always liked the idea of Curzon Street having platforms for terminating local trains.

But you have to ask yourself how much the classic rail network will be turned upside down when the HS2 extensions to Manchester and Leeds are built.

A possibility for local trains from Curzon Street might be;

2tph - Fort Parkway, Coleshill Parkway, Nuneaton, Hinkley, Narborough, South Wigston, Leicester.

2tp - Fort Parkway, Water Orton, Kingsbury, Wilnecote, Tamworth.

2tph - Fort Parkway, Castle Bromwich, Walmley, Maney Hill, Sutton Town, Streetly, Aldridge, Walsall, Pleck, Darlaston James Bridge, Willenhall, Wolverhampton.

But maybe thats just wishful thinking on my part.

And as someone who knows the area well, I have my doubts about re-opening the Sutton Park line.

 

[sprinterguy]

That was ruled out many years ago on cost grounds.

That was back in the days when some trains from the Snow Hill lines used to run via New Street.

I think that these trains were all diverted via Snow Hill so that the Cross City line could go from 4tph to 6tph.

And the plans for re-opening the Camp Hill line were revised to add in the curve at Bordesley, so trains will terminate at Moor Steet, instead of New Street.

But even if the tunnell is ever built, you will never be able to have more than 6tph on the Cross City unless you four track the line from the Southern portal of the tunnel to King's Norton, rebuild Five Ways, Univerity, Selly Oak and Bournville stations and build dive-unders at King's Norton, Longbridge and possibly Barnt Green.

I know it's nothing but an enthusiastic pipe dream in the real world, but I do think that it would offer a number of benefits. I think that removing 6tph from New Street would do a great deal at aiding capacity, by removing those trains from the platforms and also from the four approach roads past Curzon Street where the route to Derby and the Cross-City line share the same pair of tracks. Crosscountry and regional services wouldn't be stuck following the 323s all the way into New Street from either direction, they would have a clear run once the 323 got to Five Ways from the south, and platform space at New Street wouldn't be taken up by 323s being held to allow a Crosscountry service out onto the Cross City South in front of them. And of course it would provide equal access from a key commuter rail artery across Birmingham to both New Street and Curzon Street.

Of course, the only way to bring about an increased frequency on the Cross-City line would be with some serious infrastructure improvements. My favoured method would be to drastically alter the junction at Kings Norton, and to reopen the island platform there, by grouping the pair of slow lines on the south side and the fasts on the north, with new island platforms on the slows at Northfield and Longbridge. This would negate the need for any dive-unders but of course, it would still be prohibitively expensive to effect, and four tracking between Kings Norton and Five Ways would simply be impossible.

 

[HSTEd]

How many platforms does the Birmingham terminus need, how many trains are planned to stop there an hour?

 

[sprinterguy]

How many platforms does the Birmingham terminus need, how many trains are planned to stop there an hour?

8 trains an hour (9 in the peaks) once/if HS2 opens through to Manchester and Leeds, but only 3tph (4 in the peaks) when the initial London to Birmingham section opens.

 

[HSTEd]

8 trains an hour (9 in the peaks) once/if HS2 opens through to Manchester and Leeds, but only 3tph (4 in the peaks) when the initial London to Birmingham section opens.

So the cut price solution is to find space for two platforms and worry about Leeds/Manchester later?

 

[Chris125]

The idea of platforms on the local lines next to Curzon Street has been debated at length (on wnxx i seem to remember) - despite the insistence of the person who suggested it, the consensus was that it was a complete non-starter for a number of reasons.

Chris

 

[WatcherZero]

Scottish Government is to ask HS2 Ltd to draw up options for a West Coast to Glasgow, East Coast to Edinburgh or Y network to both cities funded by the Scottish Government to begin when its current financial commitments end in 2025.

 

[Batman]

The idea of platforms on the local lines next to Curzon Street has been debated at length (on wnxx i seem to remember) - despite the insistence of the person who suggested it, the consensus was that it was a complete non-starter for a number of reasons.

Chris

I didn't realise the issue had already been debated.

So what were the areguments against local trains using Curzon Street?

 

[Martin222002]

Scottish Government is to ask HS2 Ltd to draw up options for a West Coast to Glasgow, East Coast to Edinburgh or Y network to both cities funded by the Scottish Government to begin when its current financial commitments end in 2025.

Personally I would think that it would make sense for the HS2 route up to Glasgow and Edinburgh should go up the west coast/side of the country and spit into a second Y in south Scotland as the WCML does, as this would give a faster journey time then going via the east coast and the eastern side of the Y.

However I would have 2 tph from Edinburgh (as there are a lot of the time now) with one going fast via the western route and WCML before that is built, and the second train going via the ECML, or any eastern extension of the HS2 Y, serving the stations along the way, ie Newcastle, Darlington and York, possibly also Berwick.

 

[Badger]

I would be interested to know what these "number of reasons" are to be honest. I can't work out a reason why it wouldn't work other than not being able to fit it in the space or perhaps signaling issues.