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High Speed Rail 2 questions

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Nym

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I'd have thought the air fans would like HS2 as it'd free up space at busy UK airports on short haul flights, and create more spare slots for longer distance services?

Well, yes, but LHR does need another runway... But it could be in other places, for example, reduce the size of the maintenance area and move T4 (T2D) and the Cargo Terminals there, or move the cargo to the north of the 'North Runway' long and thin terminal, the terminal space and/or maintenance area could also be expanded over the A30, then have a 767 capable runway built to the south of 09R/27L (South Runway), anyway, not the correct forum for this.

Unless they plan to possibly use Manchester or Birmingham as a 'domestic hub' with connecting 'plane trains' to LHR and LGW
 
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Geezertronic

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Unless they plan to possibly use Manchester or Birmingham as a 'domestic hub' with connecting 'plane trains' to LHR and LGW

The extension to the BHX runway seems to be progressing finally now money has been allocated to the redirection of the A45 (which apparently also includes better links into BHI station). Don't know what the residents of Bickenhill think though...
 

Nonsense

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NOnsense by name.... what an apt name...

I'm not going to write in words of one syllable...

I have no desire to see any more pointless rail lines, steam, or magLev ripped through our precious country side. As to returning back to nature, I fly over the UK all the time and can see lines that were closed years ago....

I take the time to respond to each of your points and your response is what?

In the absence of anything meaningful to add you focus on my username and then waffle on about something I'm struggling to discern.

Railways are pointless, countryside is precious, you fly all the time, and that lots of former rail alignments have been reclaimed by nature. Is that right?

Are you sure you fly often? Cos whenever I go to the airport I'm either stuck in traffic or sat on a late train and find myself wishing for more investments in better roads and railways. From your attitude I can only conclude that you live at the airport, have a helicopter, or have confused ms flight sim with leaving the house.
 

LE Greys

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I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say. On one hand you are stating that the Chilterns are on a direct line to Birmingham and that is correct but then you seem to be supporting ploughing a new line to Birmingham through them.

They spent enough time deciding on this route. Whether it is right or wrong, do we really want to spend another ten years planning an entirely new one? I have said before that I would have done it differently, but now that we have some actual plans, it is about time we actually started building the thing and trying to make it work.

I was also trying to give both sides of the argument in the same post, looking at alternative views before actually deciding on anything.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
HS2 linking cities, and airports, would also make flying more convenient too.

I often shell out a fortune to use HEX for the convenience. Do people wish that link didn't exist* and we all had to use the Piccadilly Line instead?

* Mind you, I wish BAA didn't have total control over it!

As do I. BAA have done very well for themselves out of this captive market. Is it possible for the government to put a compulsory purchase order on the line? Just in time for the completion of Crossrail for instance, when it could be tagged onto that and franchised to whoever gets it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Does it?

Take out the Manchester/ Edinburgh/ Glasgow (etc) flights and you surely save a lot of slots at Heathrow?

Plus a few of the European short-haul flights, since passengers can transfer direct services to the Continent once a high-speed link is completed. You would need a proper codeshare system to do it (something we need anyway) but it's workable.
 

Nym

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I won't nesseserally take out flights to Edinbrugh and Glasgow in the short term (unless these ran via BHM or MAN with a change onto a train for onward connection), Similar to London - AMS or London - CDG won't be taken fully until journey times are regularly under 2hr, and that would only see a modal shift for London / UK - Paris traffic, not UK - CDG - DXB / JFK traffic for example, that would only come about by proper competition from UK Airlines operating out of LHR (when the link is in place) and MAN / BHM.

I do beleive though that a modal shift could be acceived for the Birmingham & Manchester - Paris traffic. However, this would initally need to be run either by Eurostar or SCNF, and initally a sensible calling pattern would be Manchester Piccadilly (More platforms with 'Trackside' area for international passports etc. theres plenty of space), Manchester Airport - Birmingham Parkway / International - Statford International / Ebbsfleet - Liile - Paris / Brussels) from a back of a fag packet calculation, I'm working that Manchester - Paris would initally be 4 hours and Birmingham - Paris would be in the reigon of 3 hours. Of course this all gets easyer when the EU Guage gets all the way to Manchester and Leeds because a service could be split into two 200m units (Seimens Valero anyone?) for each side of the Y and then joined at Birmingham International where it would then proceed to Brussels or Paris.

When however, Manchester Airport - Paris Gard Du Nord can be done in under 3 hours, then it will start a decent modal shift for the Paris flow, but it will not end short haul flights from Manchester to Paris, it will meerly change from being Airbus A320, 319 and 318 with a smattering of E190s to all E190 or Saab operated as there will be less passengers (connecting passengers only), or they could instigate some kind of decent codeshare system, as will be needed for connecting flights at LHR, where if they are codesharing or ticketsharing with AF/KLM then it wouldn't be too hard if they where able to stop the services at CDG, AND carry baggage in a transfer method, similar to how it would be done at LHR.

"Platform 3a for the 'Airport Express' service to London Gatwick Airport, calling at Birmingham International, London Heathrow Airport and London Gatwick Airport. This service is operated in co-operation with British Airways Flight BA5021, Virgin Atlantic Flight VS102, and Air France flight AF2501. Any passengers wishing to travel on the airport express, please travel in the front train only. Passengers must travel in the front train on platform 3b for the Eurostar service to Paris Gard Du Nord, Calling at Liile and Paris GDN Only."
 

LE Greys

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I won't nesseserally take out flights to Edinbrugh and Glasgow in the short term (unless these ran via BHM or MAN with a change onto a train for onward connection), Similar to London - AMS or London - CDG won't be taken fully until journey times are regularly under 2hr, and that would only see a modal shift for London / UK - Paris traffic, not UK - CDG - DXB / JFK traffic for example, that would only come about by proper competition from UK Airlines operating out of LHR (when the link is in place) and MAN / BHM.

I do beleive though that a modal shift could be acceived for the Birmingham & Manchester - Paris traffic. However, this would initally need to be run either by Eurostar or SCNF, and initally a sensible calling pattern would be Manchester Piccadilly (More platforms with 'Trackside' area for international passports etc. theres plenty of space), Manchester Airport - Birmingham Parkway / International - Statford International / Ebbsfleet - Liile - Paris / Brussels) from a back of a fag packet calculation, I'm working that Manchester - Paris would initally be 4 hours and Birmingham - Paris would be in the reigon of 3 hours. Of course this all gets easyer when the EU Guage gets all the way to Manchester and Leeds because a service could be split into two 200m units (Seimens Valero anyone?) for each side of the Y and then joined at Birmingham International where it would then proceed to Brussels or Paris.

When however, Manchester Airport - Paris Gard Du Nord can be done in under 3 hours, then it will start a decent modal shift for the Paris flow, but it will not end short haul flights from Manchester to Paris, it will meerly change from being Airbus A320, 319 and 318 with a smattering of E190s to all E190 or Saab operated as there will be less passengers (connecting passengers only), or they could instigate some kind of decent codeshare system, as will be needed for connecting flights at LHR, where if they are codesharing or ticketsharing with AF/KLM then it wouldn't be too hard if they where able to stop the services at CDG, AND carry baggage in a transfer method, similar to how it would be done at LHR.

Very good analysis, and some interesting points. If HS2 does free up a few slots, that should help the long-haul operators reduce costs a little and stop it being cheaper to connect through CGD and AMS. I like the idea of running a Velaro (or presumably an AGV) through from Birmingham, and it suggests one genuine advantage of HS2, the bigger loading gauge. That's roughly what was supposed to happen with the GCR, showing how far ahead of his time Watkyn was.

I've done the odd short-haul hop in turboprops and EMB-145s, and it's interesting to see the difference in speed to travelling by rail. It was also an excuse to travel on a propliner, but that's another story. ABD-MAN was by DHC-8, and actually turned out to be pointless, since they nearly left my luggage in ABD, and anyway it took ages to get from MAN (or rather MIA) to Windermere, so the way back via Waverley was faster. BHM-ABD was quicker than by Virgin (as was then) and quite convenient, but I wouldn't do it again out of choice. Too much fuss, and I got an EMB rather than my planned propliner. Bowled when flying, would this make me a sky basher?

"Platform 3a for the 'Airport Express' service to London Gatwick Airport, calling at Birmingham International, London Heathrow Airport and London Gatwick Airport. This service is operated in co-operation with British Airways Flight BA5021, Virgin Atlantic Flight VS102, and Air France flight AF2501. Any passengers wishing to travel on the airport express, please travel in the front train only. Passengers must travel in the front train on platform 3b for the Eurostar service to Paris Gard Du Nord, Calling at Liile and Paris GDN Only."

That would be brilliant. You might find me booking a flight or two just to travel on it.
 

tbtc

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They spent enough time deciding on this route. Whether it is right or wrong, do we really want to spend another ten years planning an entirely new one? I have said before that I would have done it differently, but now that we have some actual plans, it is about time we actually started building the thing and trying to make it work

You are the only person on this thread (AFAIR) who has come up with a decent alternative to the proposed HS2 route (rather than just criticising it for not serving their town etc)
 

Nym

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OK, slightly diferent now, we all know they want to get maximum utilisation of paths on the London - Rugley section of track.

I've heard that we'll be getting platform extentions at Piccadilly to 400m.

Would there be any chances of services being split at crewe? Looking at the baseline docs now, theres only a couple of platforms that can have 400m trains on them.

Platform 6 Down PP 446m
Platform 12 Up 424m Down 432m

Now, I don't know about platform 5 and if it could be extended to accomadate 400m long units, but it would be more helpful than being forced to use platforms 6 and 12. Being able to use 5 and 6 (To my knowlage 6 could easilly be extended by a few metres south) would enable services to split for, for example, Liverpool & Preston, or Manchester * Glasgow, etc etc.

Just as an idea of service pattern, working on the 14tph at inital opening with ERMS II

Euston - Curzon St 3tph
Euston - Manchester via Stoke on Trent (400m where needed) 3tph
Euston - Liverpool & Preston (Split at Crewe) 1tph
Euston - Liverpool & Glasgow (Split at Crewe) 1tph
Curzon St - Paris GDN / Brussels 1tph

As it is currently unclear as to what will be happening with the MML linkup, I'll assume an electrified MML with interconnection at Tamworth or Nuneaton to Derby.

Euston - Derby - Sheffeild - Leeds 2tph (possibly joined onto 200m service to the NW, split at Birmingham International)
Euston - Derby - Sheffeild - Doncaster - York - Newcastle - (Edinburgh) 2tph.

1tph spare.

Possible addition of a Preston via Mancheste & Stoke route to cater for Bolton & Chorley (platform extentions needed at Chorley)
 

WatcherZero

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For just that platform problem the 'classic compatible' trains will be 200m long rather than the 400m of dedicated HS2 trains, their extending the bays at Piccadilly because they want to be able to put two on the same platform as its a terminus.
 

WatcherZero

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They may run together on HS2 but not on the classic network, the lengthening is for station operational reasons, fitting two in the same bay means you have fewer problems with capacity for other services, means a couple of bays can be dedicated to the services and makes scheduling easier.
 

LE Greys

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Just as an idea of service pattern, working on the 14tph at inital opening with ERMS II

Euston - Curzon St 3tph
Euston - Manchester via Stoke on Trent (400m where needed) 3tph
Euston - Liverpool & Preston (Split at Crewe) 1tph
Euston - Liverpool & Glasgow (Split at Crewe) 1tph
Curzon St - Paris GDN / Brussels 1tph

I'd be surprised if Glasgow was only 1tph, I'd imagine 2tph, one stopping only at Crewe, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle, the other covering Warrington, Wigan, Oxenholme, Penrith, Lockerbie and Motherwell in addition. But then I'd also imagine at least 4tph through from the old WCML to give direct services from Watford Junction, Milton Keynes and Rugby to Manchester and Liverpool, plus Pendys on the semi-fasts currently worked by 350s with an increase in frequency. Also perhaps some running via Crewe to Manchester.

As it is currently unclear as to what will be happening with the MML linkup, I'll assume an electrified MML with interconnection at Tamworth or Nuneaton to Derby.

Euston - Derby - Sheffeild - Leeds 2tph (possibly joined onto 200m service to the NW, split at Birmingham International)
Euston - Derby - Sheffeild - Doncaster - York - Newcastle - (Edinburgh) 2tph.

That gives space to increase the Nottingham and Derby EMT service, although I'd imagine they'll keep at 1tph through to Sheffield. You might also see Thameslink extend through to Corby and Leicester. The losers out of this will be XC, who will see one or two Birmingham-Leeds-Newcastle paths disappearing. It might be possible to help but improving capacity north of Leeds.

1tph spare.

Possible addition of a Preston via Mancheste & Stoke route to cater for Bolton & Chorley (platform extentions needed at Chorley)

Need to think about this.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You are the only person on this thread (AFAIR) who has come up with a decent alternative to the proposed HS2 route (rather than just criticising it for not serving their town etc)

Glad you think so. Not sure if my GC-based route really is a decent alternative, but it's a pet project I've been working on for ten years.
 

Nym

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Hmmmm, so when demand skyrockets because of sub 2 hour journey times to London, we're still going to be stuck with SHORTER trains than we already have?

I don't think that all services out of Piccadilly will need to be 400m long but some of the peak journeys certainly will need to be, 1hr40 Piccadilly - Euston will result in a lot more passengers, and if running at 3tph (assumed) and running shorter services than is currently being run, whats going to happen there? I know it won't be a pretty picture.

At a guess they'll be lengthening platforms 8 and 9 for the HS2 services, rather than building new platforms in the car park and extending platforms 1 to 4 to compensate for the loss (and diversion of the East Manchester Line services further north east on the station). But they do need to have 400m services running when HS2 opens, if we need 253m long trains today, why will a 200m train be long enough in ten years?

Even at 4tph it only provides an extra 2 carrages per hour with 200m long units.

Either way, if they do extend platform 9, it will be even more operationally restrictive as pt. 10 - 12 branch off plaform 9, 212m from the buffers. An alternative could be extending platforms 4 and 5, but then that restricts the East Manchester Platforms, (1 - 4).

Idealy, IMO, I'd be looking at adding additional platforms to the North East on the current surface car park, adjacent to Sheffeild Street. 3 platforms there, all permissable working (oviously), the current parking spaces removed, the remained ones at the end turned into Disabled Parking only, one way road access into the multi storey, with footpath for access to the either 2 side island platform, or 3 platfoms at a squeze, would proberbly be best fitting in a single island.

UE and DE would then need to be slew over onto the farthest north bridge over Fairfeild Street.
The current platform 2/3 island extended upto this point upto 400m length, thus preserving 1, 0, -1, and the possible -2 for East Manchester services, aswell as permissable use of Platform 2 or 3 (by crossing the lines before Fairfeild St.), with a loop from both DE and UF feeding into Platform 3.
The current 4/5 island can then be extened over what used to be the UE and DE lines that have now being slew north, where all of the new 2/3 platform (that comes to a point at Fairfeild St), where the new 4/5 platform also terminates.
Thats come about by some marker pens on my screen and using google maps, so may need a little tweaking, but as the extention of platforms at piccadilly is only a stop gap solution anyway, perhaps for the amount of track work and disruption that would cause, maybe they should look at placment and building the dedicated HS2 terminus in Manchester as part of phase 1, rather than converting the current platforms to the length required. If it happens to be Mayfeild that is chosen, it wouldn't need much trackwork to plumb it into the current network (just a few crossing movments on the throught).

Also, if mayfeild is chosen, it wouldn't need to use the current route to platform 13/14 as there is an alternative to get across Fairfeild St, aswell as having it's own entrance. But IMO, the site at Mayfeild is ideal and the sensible choice, the only other sites that come to mind are exchange, or in the area of Ordstall Lane. Whereas currently, Mayfeild sits next to Piccadilly, and nothing around there wouldn't be able to be moved for a few pennies.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
PS. Before you all start jumping and saying Mayfeild isn't big enough, I'm saying the Mayfeild SITE not just Mayfeild. I'd also look at adding four more additional standard platforms to that side of piccadilly with 8 track (10 including HS2) to Ardwick, and 6 (8 including HS2) onwards.
 

WatcherZero

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Because not 100% of passengers are travelling from Manchester to London, many passengers will be travelling to stations inbetween and so wont be using the HS2 but the services which will continue to run on the WCML.

The phase 1 and 2 service patterns modelled by HS2 (not neccesarily what will operate eventually) are as follows:

Phase 1
3tph Birmingham Curzon Street-London Euston via Birmingham Interchange, Old Oak Common
(4tph in peak)

1tph Liverpool Lime Street- Euston via Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Old Oak Common
1tph Liverpool Lime Street- Euston via Warrington, Old Oak Common

1tph Glasgow Central - Euston via Preston, Wigan, Warrington, Old Oak Common
(1tph extra in peak starting from Preston via Wigan, Warrington, Old Oak Common)

2tph Manchester Piccadilly- Euston via Stockport, Old Oak Common
1tph Manchester Piccadilly- Euston via Stockport, Wilmslow, Old Oak Common

Phase 2
1tph Liverpool-London Euston via Runcorn, Crewe, Stafford, Old Oak Common
1tph Liverpool-London Euston via Warrington, Old Oak Common

1tph Glasgow Central- London Euston via Preston, Wigan, Old Oak Common
(2tph in peak)

2tph Manchester- Birmingham Curzon Street via Manchester Outskirts, Old Oak Common

3tph Manchester- London Euston via Manchester Outskirts, Old Oak Common
(4tph in peak)

3tph Birmingham Curzon Street - London Euston via Birmingham Interchange, Old Oak Common
(4 tph in peak)

1tph South Yorkshire-London Euston via East Midlands, Old Oak Common
1tph Leeds-London Euston via South Yorkshire, East Midlands, Old Oak Common
1tph Leeds-London Euston via Old Oak Common
1tph Leeds-London Euston via Birmingham Interchange, Old Oak Common

2tph Newcastle- London Euston via Darlington, York, Old Oak Common
1tph Newcastle-Birmingham Curzon Street via Darlington, York, South Yorkshire, East Midlands, Old Oak Common

2tph Leeds - Birmingham Curzon Street via South Yorkshire, East Midlands, Old Oak Common
 
Last edited:

LE Greys

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I suppose from my ECML perspective, 1tph to Glasgow looks a bit low compared to 2tph to Edinburgh, which might happen soon, and does already in some hours. It does rather surprise me that Glasgow gets so few trains, especially now that the EC service is gone. That's why I keep on predicting that the Glasgow service will increase, and especially that some trains will make longer non-stop runs on the way.
 

tbtc

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It does rather surprise me that Glasgow gets so few trains, especially now that the EC service is gone

I think one difference is that the WCML doesn't go through anywhere *big* between London and Glasgow whilst the ECML does pass through Newcastle.

(no offence to Crewe, Carlisle etc, but the London - Glasgow services don't stop at big places like Birmingham/ Manchester)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Glad you think so. Not sure if my GC-based route really is a decent alternative, but it's a pet project I've been working on for ten years.

The GC idea has some merits. It doesn't serve Birmingham, which is the main weakness, but if it took the London - Manchester traffic off the WCML then it'd free up some paths through Rugby etc.

There's no "perfect" route, my own preference would be one that served central Birmingham and central Manchester on the way to Glasgow (to save having so many different "spurs"), but there are flaws with everything
 

dalmahoyhill

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Tbtc

That’s the best statement that’s been posted. “There is no perfect route”. Well there could possibly be a better route but not at a practical cost. Cost benfit ratios, treasury budgets, disruption and a whole lot of other issues come into play. The big point is that with HS2 and any large project is that everything is a compromise and trade off. I have read the design documents on the DofT website in detail and they make a well reasoned case for the choices that have been made.

I would agree that the perfect solution would be to avoid spurs and direct the line across the cities. A tunnel under Birmingham with a new HS station at New Street with fast through lines instead of traversing around the east of the city would be perfect. But this is a pipe dream, the costs would be simply enormous. I completely understand the decision to put a new station at Curzon street. It is not brilliant, but a compromise had to be made.

On the subject of 1 tph to Glasgow. I assume that under the high frequency timetable that the number of paths to run additional trains to Glasgow may be limited?
Both the ECML and WCML were built as spines with spurs as well. Although the WCML doesn’t actually head to any of the large cities, the route runs through high density of towns and population for much of its length. The line only reaches low population densities north of Lancaster. Places like Crewe service a huge area and an array of local lines, same with Doncaster. They act as hubs. That’s the only problem of dog legging HS2 through Manchester and connecting back to the WCML at wigan is that is not as short as following the existing WCML through crewe, warrington and wigan.

Legrays
You said your GC route was a pet project. My pet project would be to extend HS2 to Scotland from either spur (although I lean toward the WCML), but if it ever happens it will not be in my lifetime. That’s the problem, if you took a cold rational view of some of the things we would love to happen they probably would not stack up. I am not sure the capital cost of adding another 200miles of high speed line over Shap and Beattock to service 5million people would not economically stack up, I can hope though.
 

rb311

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Interesting responses...

first things first, the age old square foot argument about how much landspace the rail line takes up is a complete non starter. It's the area it effects rather than the area it takes up that is critical.

And the end result might be 22m wide, but the area of land that is disturbed to achieve this 22m wide footprint is far greater.

As to pointless railways, further railways are pointless, when we can't even get the existing ones right.

Further to the view from the air, old lines are perfectly visible and whilst the track beds may have been overrun by nature, the earthworks are still extant. Hence why I have been argueing that using existing track beds would be far more preferable to creating new lines.
 

LE Greys

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Further to the view from the air, old lines are perfectly visible and whilst the track beds may have been overrun by nature, the earthworks are still extant. Hence why I have been argueing that using existing track beds would be far more preferable to creating new lines.

There are serious engineering problems associated with that. Imagine trying to turn a derelict wartime bomber base into an airport capable of handling modern airliners. Firstly, the runway would need to be dug up and relaid, 747s have a much heavier ground loading than a Lancaster. Secondly, you need a taxiway network to serve the runway, probably with wider turns than before. Then you need a terminal and maintenance facilities, since the old hangers would clearly not be up to the job. It might also be a good idea to replace the control tower, or at least gut it and put in modern systems. You also need to put back the fuel handling systems, and build decent car parks and access roads, probably a rail link as well. Think that's going a bit far? Look at the construction of Stansted, the current terminal alone taking three years to build.

Translating that to a disused railway, you would be talking about replacing earthworks and bridges, reconstructing stations, some of which have been taken over for other purposes like Nottingham Victoria (much to my frustration). Then there's signalling, all of which would have been removed, depots, station access and car parking, and the crucial connections to the existing network, requiring weekend possessions to put in. Even replacement with a conventional line, or a preserved line for that matter, might mean putting back bridges which have been removed, building new ones over new roads and digging out filled-in cuttings before a single sleeper gets put down. Look at Brackley Viaduct on the Great Central when in use and now (second one takes ages to load - sorry). It eventually reaches the point where a new line would be cheaper and easier to build.
 

tbtc

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It eventually reaches the point where a new line would be cheaper and easier to build

Agreed, which is why I think the best version of HS2 would be one which ignored historic routes. I can see the appeal in reopening something like Woodhead, of course, but I wonder whether it wouldn't be any more expensive to just drill a different course (given how the costs work out)
 

Nym

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Of course, a new course would be able to be bored to EU Guage to have HS or double deck trains across the pennines. And in a nice straight line for 125 - 175mph running between Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and York, to join up HS2b and HS2c, aswell as ?HS3 and give HS trains access into Liverpool at full Guage (by upgrade and 4 tracking of the Chat Moss Route)?
 

Nonsense

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Further to the view from the air, old lines are perfectly visible and whilst the track beds may have been overrun by nature, the earthworks are still extant. Hence why I have been argueing that using existing track beds would be far more preferable to creating new lines.

So whats the difference environmentally? One approach leads to the construction of the most viable route between two points with some impact on the area it occupies. The other, doesn't just impact on the area it passes through, but actually destroys a long narrow corridor of vegetation, wildlife habitat and most likely cyclepaths, greenways and even new residential and industrial uses, and even then doesn't fulfill its design purpose, i.e the most viable route between two points.

If an abandoned alignment has returned to nature or found other uses, then how is reopening it to rail in anyway preferable to a new alignment?
 

Geezertronic

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Interesting responses...

first things first, the age old square foot argument about how much landspace the rail line takes up is a complete non starter. It's the area it effects rather than the area it takes up that is critical.

And the end result might be 22m wide, but the area of land that is disturbed to achieve this 22m wide footprint is far greater.

Same applies to motorways and airports. I live 5 miles away from BHX but hear the planes taking off and landing all the time (day and night) and if the takeoff is towards my house the sound is loud enough to drown a simple chat out if we are outside. The WCML is 800m away from my house, very rarely do I hear the trains and I do only when the wind is blowing a certain way.
 

LE Greys

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Agreed, which is why I think the best version of HS2 would be one which ignored historic routes. I can see the appeal in reopening something like Woodhead, of course, but I wonder whether it wouldn't be any more expensive to just drill a different course (given how the costs work out)

Perhaps I should append that my route would bypass the most awkward spots, but that probably makes it worse. It would require a new bore at Woodhead, the No.3 bore being used for one line, the new No.4 bore the other (giving a bigger loading gauge). Brackley would need a new viaduct and connections to Banbury. Leicester would be tricky, since the line would have to pass through near the Midland station and head for Syston rather than Belgrave, then head north-east until it could rejoin the old route north of Ruddington. Nottingham would require the complete rebuilding of the Victoria Centre and several new tunnels, plus restoration of the link from Weekday Cross Junction to Netherfield. Then you would need even more new tunnels. Sheffield would require the complete reconstruction of Victoria and diversion of lines from Woodburn Junction into it - although that does increase capacity at the Midland station. This is just for the 125 mph slow lines, not the parallel LGV.

Looks like the GCR plan might end up being very expensive.
 
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WatcherZero

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If I remember right the passenger predictions for Glasgow were 2000/day today, 4500 by 2035 under do nothing and 8000 with HS2. With trains carrying 600-1200 passengers the 1tph (say 10-12 per day) does make sense.
 

starrymarkb

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But the author of the article is the same person who has been writing other anti-HS2 stuff. It's not impartial in any way. He should also be told that it isn't news being written in April 2011 - given people have known about this since it started and talked about it in numerous threads on this forum and others.


Andrew Gilligan has been very much anti rail after some RPIs caught him without a ticket and charged him!
 

Rhydgaled

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I think one difference is that the WCML doesn't go through anywhere *big* between London and Glasgow whilst the ECML does pass through Newcastle.

(no offence to Crewe, Carlisle etc, but the London - Glasgow services don't stop at big places like Birmingham/ Manchester)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


The GC idea has some merits. It doesn't serve Birmingham, which is the main weakness, but if it took the London - Manchester traffic off the WCML then it'd free up some paths through Rugby etc.

There's no "perfect" route, my own preference would be one that served central Birmingham and central Manchester on the way to Glasgow (to save having so many different "spurs"), but there are flaws with everything

I too think the line should go through Birmingham and Manchester rather than putting them on spurs. The central Birmingham HS2 station in the plans looks ok, I'd suggest the line slope downwards in there and tunnel to the M5/M6 junction. From there, you could avoid further tunneling by running on top of the M6, but tunneling might be cheaper anyway. Manchester could be harder.

as for Leeds, apart from preventing Birmingham - Leeds services, I think it would be better to use a combination of the GCR and following the M1. It wouldn't be as HighSpeed, with stations at Rugby, Leicester, and Nottingham (might need tunnel here, 'cos the GCR's gone), but it could work. an added complication is Sheffield, that'd have to be a spur I think (though you could go to Manchester that way too). I'm not sure why HS2 proposes to go to Leeds anyway, a new 125/140mph line between York, Leeds and Manchester (or upgrades to existing lines to provide something like that) might benifit the north more (there's a risk of HS2 just encouraging long distance commuting into London).
 

j0hn0

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Same applies to motorways and airports. I live 5 miles away from BHX but hear the planes taking off and landing all the time (day and night) and if the takeoff is towards my house the sound is loud enough to drown a simple chat out if we are outside. The WCML is 800m away from my house, very rarely do I hear the trains and I do only when the wind is blowing a certain way.

My apartment block backs onto the MML at St Albans, I hear nothing from the trainline, you would never even know it was there despite the masses of traffic
 
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