High Speed Rail 2 questions

[rb311]

I simply don't see the point of driverless vehicles. Additional cost, complication and potential to go wrong for a very marginal benefit, if at all.

What is more likely is automatic tracking of cars, journeys, speeds, locations etc so that big brother will know exactly what we are up to, and as a result will start questioning why.

Anyway, this debate is a red herring, as whether or not cars are automatic or not, has nothing to do with rights or wrongs of HS2.

I keep saying that it won't happen, I know, but also I have oft repeated, why, when politicians make such a complete horlicks of everything they get involved in, should they suddenly be making the right decision now?

Of course, politicians are not, and it's, at best, niave to think that Hammond and Co, have anything other than an eye on what is perceived to be good for votes when they stand at the despatch box and pronounce on a project they cannot be held accountable for if it doesnt work out as planned.

Britain has always been a trading nation, and if it is to have a future, it needs to become one again, and this present government's blind eye towards international communications and in particular, upgrading London's airports to meet future demand is and will turn out to be a completely short sighted and cowardly approach to policy.

 

[jon0844]

While I don't think we should worry about building new airports and runways as demand changes, rather than increases, at least it's more of a valid argument than driverless cars!!

Personally, I can't see why we don't build HS2 (which isn't that expensive in the grand scheme of things, given much of the money 'comes back') I've never been against airport expansion either. If there's a business case for another runway at Stansted, which there may well be, why not?

At the current time, I see aviation as having an unknown future based on fuel prices and future shortages. But if that changed, suddenly flying would be perfectly viable. However, for as long as we're going to need heavy security measures, as well as safety meaning having to turn things off during the taxi, takeoff and landing, I'd still be thinking rail if it's comparable (even a little longer). I'm writing this on a FCC service due to leave at 2106 and haven't had to turn anything off for departure...!

 

[dalmahoyhill]

Stockport1



You still didn’t answer my question though. Ignore any argument over the existence or not of global warming, that wasn’t the point I was making. Do you, or do you not, believe that the points I make are relevant- security of supply, competing nations, peak oil etc. or do you believe we carry on as before. You didn’t answer that, or can you not write a coherent argument?

“h and the east anglia uni.....ask where its *green* funds come from ask why they are looking for evidence to support a theory and discarding all data that contradicts....thats not science. thats a coverup.”

Well that’s some big cover-up perpetrated by scientists across the world. Most scientists are too dozy to be Machiavellian planners of a global conspiracy. ‘ha ha we have fooled the world, now we have funds to spend the next 20 years sitting in our labs running endless computer models, hwah hwah hwah’. Nasa didn’t land on the moon. September the 11th was ordered by George Bush. Area 51 is full of aliens. David Icke was right. Ahh the power of the internet, too much time and lack of social interaction!

 

[Metroland]

Britain has always been a trading nation, and if it is to have a future, it needs to become one again, and this present government's blind eye towards international communications and in particular, upgrading London's airports to meet future demand is and will turn out to be a completely short sighted and cowardly approach to policy.

It's the whole point of HS2 to free up capacity after cutting back on some domestic flights, as well as opening up other airports for international business, such as Birmingham? There is plenty of runway capacity outside the SE, what's missing is an efficient domestic network to link it up. Hence HS2 you are so frightened of.

 

[Christopher125]

I am not saying the railway does not need investment but there is a difference between increasing capacity on commuter services and building a high speed line from London to Birmingham, I expect HS2 will be a premium service.

HS2 will increase commuter services, and the DfT and HS2 Ltd have made quite clear the business case is not based on premium fares; besides, with most HS2 trains actually being existing services re-routed they cant anyway, as unlike HS1 commuter trains there wont often be a comparitive service.

Ironically, if anything HS2 will help lower fares on some trains as passengers are already being deliberately priced off some WCML services - a situation thats only going to get a lot worse in the coming decade. Forget price rises in 15 years, its the ones in 10 that will make your eyes hurt!

Chris

 

[stockport1]

Stockport1
Well that’s some big cover-up perpetrated by scientists across the world. Most scientists are too dozy to be Machiavellian planners of a global conspiracy. ‘ha ha we have fooled the world, now we have funds to spend the next 20 years sitting in our labs running endless computer models, hwah hwah hwah’. Nasa didn’t land on the moon. September the 11th was ordered by George Bush. Area 51 is full of aliens. David Icke was right. Ahh the power of the internet, too much time and lack of social interaction!

this is sheer junk. so i dont believe man is warming the earth by adding to c02 production by a tiny percentage and you resort to character assasination with falsities?

The absurd thing is that you *believe* in MMGW. like a religon you will continue and dig in your heels despite the obvious.

hell mmgw is so dangerous we better build more conventional reactors.
Well you wont be so against more nuclear then ...despite the fukushima
disaster.

forget cigarette smoking. nuclear testing and nuke disasters/waste leaking has caused more cancer than anything

cancer was a rare disease 100 years ago.and in the last 50 has risen to stupendous levels....all coinciding with the rise of nuclear energy and use of phosphate fertiliser usage iin tobacco farming.cigrettes were being smoked 100 years ago by all and sundry.

but here we go. you will say its a necassary evil because one day the earth might warm and it might have something to do with human co2 output.and oil will run out...theres anothr story.

come one some one tell me why the price of oil is so high?...becauxe thats where your bailout money is going. speculating on the price and you will have to pay..but its ok cos "the oil is running out so it will cost us more..thats why"

you are going along a victim of two rip offs and defending the fact.

stockholm syndrome .....thats you
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Stockport1
You still didn’t answer my question though. Ignore any argument over the existence or not of global warming, that wasn’t the point I was making. Do you, or do you not, believe that the points I make are relevant- security of supply, competing nations, peak oil etc. or do you believe we carry on as before. You didn’t answer that, or can you not write a coherent argument?

/QUOTE]

coherent argument? hahahahaha thats a good one. did you read your post before posting.

theres always one of you around isnt there? the establishment defender. consensus science stalwart.

*believe* what you want fella.....and ill research what i want and make my own decisions based on that.

i do know that there are massive oil discoveries all the time...venezuela,brazil,india,nrthern china,falkland islands ( has more oil than the entire midlle east) , gulf of mexico.

the usa has enormous reserves yet cannot tap them due to *enviromnmental* concerns..and the minute they start...gulf oil disaster.

oil is not made from squashed dinosaus/trees either. there is good evidnce chemically of an abiotic process going on within the earth. the russians are well ahead on this with deep earth well drilling....but they must be deniers or something eh?

there really is no shortage of oil.its productionn is restricted at every point in the cycle. whats in it for the oil companies to let it flow cheap? why dont we get petrol for 8p a gallon like in iran/venezuela? after all ...all that noth sea oil is ours right?

is it because its all to complicated a business and i dont understand? shhh just pay the 1.50 a liter...dont ask questions....just believe what i say....is that what it is?

Do I have be the victim of multiple crimes ....and have to be insulted about UFOs and cr@p by the likes of you?

NO i dont believe in MMGW ...and i find it insulting and embarassing for all of you every time i hear it mentioned same with oill running out.

In the 60s...oil will be gone by 1990
In the 70s it was fear of the ice age.
80s All the oil will be used up by 2000.
In 2000 the oil will be gone by 2020.


What do you want to bet there will be no global warming and
oil will still be at the pumps in 50 years?

CERA:
Rather than a 'peak,' we should expect an 'undulating plateau' perhaps three or four decades from now.
Mr. Robert Esser
Senior Consultant and Director, Global Oil and Gas Resources
Cambridge Energy Research Associates
Huntington, NY,
Understanding the Peak Oil Theory
Subcommittee on Energy and Air Quality
December 7, 2005


EXXONMOBIL:
Contrary to the theory, oil production shows no signs of a peak... Oil is a finite resource, but because it is so incredibly large, a peak will not occur this year, next year, or for decades to come
ExxonMobil Advertisement in New York Times, June 2, 2006


OPEC:
We in Opec do not subscribe to the peak-oil theory.
Acting Secretary General of Opec, Mohammed Barkindo
July 11, 2006

 

[Philip Elliott]

besides, with most HS2 trains actually being existing services re-routed they cant anyway, as unlike HS1 commuter trains there wont often be a comparitive service.

Ironically, if anything HS2 will help lower fares on some trains as passengers are already being deliberately priced off some WCML services - a situation thats only going to get a lot worse in the coming decade. Forget price rises in 15 years, its the ones in 10 that will make your eyes hurt!

Utter bull excrement! What non-stop services from Birmingham & Manchester are there to divert? Oh, one a day southbound only from Birmingham...it is a new service.

Would you like to provide proof that fares are set to price people of the West Coast? That will be why VT LOWERED fares between on the Stours and Stoke-Manchester plus produces thousands of daily value advance fares - £7-£15 commonly available for 80-200 mile journeys. They are only available because of the excess capacity available and the high subsidy received for so many years.

The high anytime fares are set to take advantage of a captive market - expense account business suits.

 

[tbtc]

Utter bull excrement! What non-stop services from Birmingham & Manchester are there to divert? Oh, one a day southbound only from Birmingham...it is a new service

There are going to be a good few London services running non stop from Crewe/ Warrington/ Preston/Stoke/ Newcastle/York (as well as your Stockport example). Plus examples like only one stop south of Runcorn on the Liverpool - London trains.

Look at the way that Manchester has lost direct daytime services to Rugby, Watford etc as trains are speeded up. Look at the poor service Milton Keynes gets to places further north (unless you want to sit on a slow EMU via Northampton). The fixation with fast services to London isn't something HS2 is introducing, its something which has been happening over the last decade.

Putting a non-stop London - Warrington/York service on the HS2 route will free up a WCML/ECML path through the Trent Valley/ Welwyn Viaduct which can then benefit the local stations on that line.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Look at the way that Manchester has lost direct daytime services to Rugby, Watford etc as trains are speeded up. Look at the poor service Milton Keynes gets to places further north (unless you want to sit on a slow EMU via Northampton). The fixation with fast services to London isn't something HS2 is introducing, its something which has been happening over the last decade.

Manchester never had regular direct links to Rugby. Milton Keynes now has an hourly service to Manchester when it was previously 2-hourly.

 

[ainsworth74]

forget cigarette smoking. nuclear testing and nuke disasters/waste leaking has caused more cancer than anything

cancer was a rare disease 100 years ago.and in the last 50 has risen to stupendous levels....all coinciding with the rise of nuclear energy and use of phosphate fertiliser usage iin tobacco farming.cigrettes were being smoked 100 years ago by all and sundry.

Sources for these claims?

 

[Zoe]

Milton Keynes now has an hourly service to Manchester when it was previously 2-hourly.

Milton Keynes is like Reading on GWML quite an important destination so I would have thought all trains should stop there.

 

[tbtc]

Milton Keynes is like Reading on GWML quite an important destination so I would have thought all trains should stop there.

I think they may well all stop there after HS2 is up and running. Not only is it a growing place (and increasingly important to the railways) but there are connections there for Luton Airport/ Oxford/ Cambridge by coach too (with potential for rail replacement if/when)

 

[The Planner]

They will need to stop at MK more come 2012 unless NR are perfectly happy to lose shedloads of staff and replace them with people from the local area....

 

[Zoe]

I would have thought they could have stopped at Milton Keynes instead of Watford Junction. Watford is too close to London I think to justify an intercity stop. It would be like stopping Norwich express services at Romford.

 

[stockport1]

Sources for these claims?

http://ratical.org/radiation/inetSeries/nwJWG.html
do your own research. its down to YOU not me.
i dont really care what anyone thinks.

unfortunately i will end up suffering because there are too many thick,brainwashed, "it was on tv it must be true",blissfully ignorant cretins out there who want to compel me to live by there beliefs and suffer for it.

cause pushing,curtain twitching guardian reading babies. leftie activists blah whatever.

some people need religon and also need to push it on everyone around.
Thats what all this global warming and peak oil junk is. religon.

its belief based. consensus based. not science based.

 

[Zoe]

Even if you deny cliamte change, you can't deny the oil is running out.

 

[ainsworth74]

http://ratical.org/radiation/inetSeries/nwJWG.html
do your own research. its down to YOU not me.

If you're going to bring arguments like cancer rates have increased in the last 100 years or so then it is up to prove those those claims otherwise your argument is groundless.

And whilst I thank you for your link, I wonder if you have a more credible peer reviewed source rather than a link to a website that seems to be run by a bunch of hippies?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Too many of you have commented on my previous post to quote you this time.

My main objection is the HSR trains running at full speed could be as polluting as the car journeys it hopes to replace, whereas if you spend the money on doing a proper job of GWML electrification and electrifying the Midland Mainline and CrossCountry routes you should get a get reduction in emmisions. A limit on the max speed of HSR trains would solve this concern. Once the line reaches Manchester the additional pollution of fast running (on trains to Scotland and possibly a few of the Liverpool/Manchester trains) should actually reduce emmisions, as then you are actually competing with aviation. The HS2 services to Birmingham have no potential for aviation impact. I am concerned about power consumption, it is not the electric bill but the fact that most of that electricity comes from coal, oil and gas. You don't hear me complaining about HS1 do you? That's because the only trains on the line that exceed 140mph are competing with aviation and most of the fast running is on French nuclear power.

By avoiding major engineering works with a new slow line, I meant that it might be able to bend around more to shorten and/or avoid viaduct. With a HSR if there's a valley in the way you can't curve round to find a narrower or shallower point to cross it, you have to go straight across it.

The Manchester - Euston - Heathrow route I plotted would later pass south of Reading, with junctions to Reading on both sides, and on to Bath. That would allow trains to bypass Reading.

 

[LE Greys]

By avoiding major engineering works with a new slow line, I meant that it might be able to bend around more to shorten and/or avoid viaduct. With a HSR if there's a valley in the way you can't curve round to find a narrower or shallower point to cross it, you have to go straight across it.

Well, yes, that's all well and good if you have something like the GWML as your fast lines, capable of solid 125 running. If on the other hand you have something like the Berks & Hants, then there are still those annoying slow sections, tight curves and problematic signal spacings. Under those circumstances, it's probably better to consider building something good for 125+ rather than a mere 60-75 when your fast lines fluctuate between 75 and 110.

 

[Christopher125]

Utter bull excrement!

HS2 will supercede the WCML for the majority of fast services to London post phase 2, and pricing is going to be the only way to control demand on the WCML in the near future. Denying that is both daft and desperate.

Chris

 

[WatcherZero]

Rhydagled, you would have no opposition then if the power was 100% green from a mix of renewable sources?

 

[Rhydgaled]

Rhydagled, you would have no opposition then if the power was 100% green from a mix of renewable sources?

I think so, and I would probablly be calling for a lot more HSR. I would only have an issue if it meant we had to stop electrification at Cardiff and build new bi-mode trains, and then I'd be trying to find some road schemes to cancel so that we could have wires to Swansea and HSR.

 

[Nonsense]

I think so, and I would probablly be calling for a lot more HSR. I would only have an issue if it meant we had to stop electrification at Cardiff and build new bi-mode trains, and then I'd be trying to find some road schemes to cancel so that we could have wires to Swansea and HSR.

So your actual objection to HS2 has nothing to do with HS2. Your concerns about wires on the far end of GWML (and the obligatory nod to climate change required by all weak arguments these days) aside, you're actually neutral, or even supportive of HS2.

 

[Philip Elliott]

HS2 will supercede the WCML for the majority of fast services to London post phase 2, and pricing is going to be the only way to control demand on the WCML in the near future. Denying that is both daft and desperate.

Chris

When there are thousands of empty seats daily? There is no need to control demand as the supply is greater. The WCML has plenty of capacity and will do for quite some time yet.

 

[tbtc]

The WCML has plenty of capacity and will do for quite some time yet

Really?

Given the demand to give Liverpool a second London service, demand for direct Blackpool trains to London, aspirations to provide enhanced services in the Trent Valley, the proposed fourth Manchester service, the growth of Milton Keynes...

 

[LE Greys]

Really?

Given the demand to give Liverpool a second London service, demand for direct Blackpool trains to London, aspirations to provide enhanced services in the Trent Valley, the proposed fourth Manchester service, the growth of Milton Keynes...

[RANT]
Yes, but they haven't been stuck with a two-track bottleneck on one of the busiest sections of the line for the last fifty years (it was a much longer bottleneck before then). A demand for a fourth Manchester service when Leeds has two? A demand for a direct Blackpool service when Cleethorpes has no prospect of one (nor Middlesbrough for that matter)? Enhanced services on the Trent Valley when Retford has to cope with one train every two hours, and Essendine and Bawtry have no trains at all? All this investment in the WCML, on the backs of premiums paid by the ECML, and we see no benefit for running a profitable route. The ECML gets penalised for success, losing out to an unprofitable route.
[/RANT]

 

[Zoe]

Enhanced services on the Trent Valley when Retford has to cope with one train every two hours.

At least Retford still gets an intercity service to London. Would you prefer an extension of the Peterborough FCC service to Doncaster stopping at all stations to Peterborough and then running semi-fast to London? That's what Nuneaton and Tamworth effectively have now on the WCML.

 

[LE Greys]

At least Retford still gets an intercity service to London. Would you prefer an extension of the Peterborough FCC service to Doncaster stopping at all stations to Peterborough and then running semi-fast to London? That's what Nuneaton and Tamworth effectively have now on the WCML.

The service reduction was a mistake. I suppose that Manchester and Glasgow services would have pathing problems if they did stop. However, if it's a choice between a usable service to useful destinations and an iffy once-every-two-hour express that doesn't necessarily connect to the appropriate destination - i.e. anywhere from York northwards in the case of Retford - then I think I'll take the usable service. Grantham and Newark may get more trains, but generally they don't run to York northwards either, and quite a few Scottish trains miss out Doncaster, so connections are even more iffy. There are a few exceptions, but I'd say that the service at Newark is roughly comparable to that at Tamworth, the only difference being that one gets express stock and the other suburban stock.

I don't want to turn this into an East vs. West argument, so I won't pursue the point too much, it's just that it's maddening to see investment go to somewhere that has already seen a lot of investment.

 

[tbtc]

[RANT]
Yes, but they haven't been stuck with a two-track bottleneck on one of the busiest sections of the line for the last fifty years (it was a much longer bottleneck before then). A demand for a fourth Manchester service when Leeds has two? A demand for a direct Blackpool service when Cleethorpes has no prospect of one (nor Middlesbrough for that matter)? Enhanced services on the Trent Valley when Retford has to cope with one train every two hours, and Essendine and Bawtry have no trains at all? All this investment in the WCML, on the backs of premiums paid by the ECML, and we see no benefit for running a profitable route. The ECML gets penalised for success, losing out to an unprofitable route.
[/RANT]

I agree with you (well, apart from thinking that Retford doesn't really justify a significantly improved service), there are improvements that could be made on the ECML to match those on the WCML, and there's certainly a feeling that the ECML premiums have paid for the WCML subsidies...

 

[rb311]

It's the whole point of HS2 to free up capacity after cutting back on some domestic flights, as well as opening up other airports for international business, such as Birmingham? There is plenty of runway capacity outside the SE, what's missing is an efficient domestic network to link it up. Hence HS2 you are so frightened of.

Frightened? That's quite funny. How can someone be frightened of something that doesn't exist? Or never will.

What people like yourself are frightened of is the fact that it won't happen. And I still find it astonishing that people who are pro this still-born white elephant can seriously believe the politicians that promote it.

As to your comment about Birmingham, I am afraid that people from around the world don't want to travel there, they want to come to London. London is the draw internationally, and will always be so. It is that custom that the UK needs to bring back if the country is going to succeed, and unless London airports can cope with that traffic there will be no chance.

And the age old "free up capacity" argument is so hackneyed now that is almost laughable. HS2 would pure and simply permit train companies to reduce services and timings on so called conventional lines. When are people going to wake up and realise this??????