Help requested. Christmas sleeper train 1923

[James Dutton]

I'm currently writing a book about my grandfather, footballer Jimmy Seed, who played for Spurs and England in the 1920s.

On Christmas Day Spurs played Huddersfield at White Hart Lane, but rather than playing in the return leg on Boxing Day we believe Jimmy attended his sister's wedding up in Whitburn (near Sunderland). She was munitionette footballer, Minnie Seed.

Footballers in that era seemed to have spent half their lives on trains as the road network was still very basic, and motorised vehicles unreliable.

However, it might have been a tall order to get up to Newcastle (or Sunderland) in time for an afternoon wedding, so I was wondering if he might have caught a sleeper train from King's Cross on Christmas Day evening.

My research to date has been inconclusive, some saying that a full service was scheduled over holiday periods to meet the huge demand, but others have said that wasn't the case.

Any help gratefully received.
James Dutton

 

[WesternLancer]

I'm currently writing a book about my grandfather, footballer Jimmy Seed, who played for Spurs and England in the 1920s.

On Christmas Day Spurs played Huddersfield at White Hart Lane, but rather than playing in the return leg on Boxing Day we believe Jimmy attended his sister's wedding up in Whitburn (near Sunderland). She was munitionette footballer, Minnie Seed.

Footballers in that era seemed to have spent half their lives on trains as the road network was still very basic, and motorised vehicles unreliable.

However, it might have been a tall order to get up to Newcastle (or Sunderland) in time for an afternoon wedding, so I was wondering if he might have caught a sleeper train from King's Cross on Christmas Day evening.

My research to date has been inconclusive, some saying that a full service was scheduled over holiday periods to meet the huge demand, but others have said that wasn't the case.

Any help gratefully received.
James Dutton

Welcome. Just wanted to say what a fascinating story. You’ve come to the right place to get the info you need and I’m sure people will
Pitch in.
Sorry that I don’t have the info you specifically need but I’m sure others here will.

There have been other threads on Christmas rail services here in the past and I’ve read that services did operate over Christmas in a way that does not happen now.

Another thread about sleeping car services recently suggested that in the early 20s they were less common than a few years later. But an overnight seated train might also have been an option I imagine.

So I do think travelling by train overnight departing Christmas Day in the early twenties is potentially quite possible.

I look forward to reading replies from people here. Hopefully you will get some information of value.

Quite likely the exact departure times of trains that day knowing this forum!

Good luck with the book.

 

[Gloster]

I have looked in the reprint of the July 1922 Bradshaw, which should give a rough idea even though there are no details of Christmas changes. I would think that there probably would have been at least one sleeper to Newcastle, although probably nothing direct to Sunderland. At Newcastle he could have changed to a local train to Sunderland, although the service would probably be sparse. It is quite possible that he might have arrived back in time for breakfast.

 

[stuving]

I can find few newspaper notices from railways about their Christmas services. There are general ones from LMS and GWR that both say that on Christmas Day 1923 a Sunday service will run, and on Boxing Day a weekday service, but with some changes. Nothing from LNER, and nothing specific to overnight trains.

We had a discussion here just recently about when third-class sleepers first ran - answer 1928. So in 1923 only first-class sleeper berths were available - could a footballer afford to travel first class? In 1928 an LNER 1st class sleeper cost £1, on top of the fare.

I'm pretty sure that sleeping cars then ran in trains with seated carriages, not in exclusive sleeper trains. Most people travelling overnight - and quite a lot did - would be in a seat, and not have a very comfortable journey.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

I wonder how the Huddersfield team got home that evening? In the spirit of Xmas perhaps they put him up for the night, allowing him to continue to Sunderland the next morning?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

On Christmas Day Spurs played Huddersfield at White Hart Lane...

What time would kick-off have been back in December 1923? Maybe 2.15 p.m. at the very latest, in the days before floodlights?

 

[Gloster]

There might have been 5.00 and 7.30 p.m. trains to Newcastle: both arrived after midnight, but it is unlikely that there was a connection to Sunderland. If he was pushing the boat out, a taxi from Durham (only the 5.00 stopped) or Newcastle could be an alternative to a cold wait if he wanted to arrive early enough: it depends on when he felt he should arrive.

 

[Dave W]

I wonder how the Huddersfield team got home that evening? In the spirit of Xmas perhaps they put him up for the night, allowing him to continue to Sunderland the next morning?

If the return fixture was played on Boxing Day as noted (and that was indeed common at the time) - maybe Spurs travelled up post game and he stayed with the squad until Boxing Day morning, or continued on from where they arrived.

A fascinating insight into the football of old. Interested to hear more!

 

[Gloster]

If the return fixture was played on Boxing Day as noted (and that was indeed common at the time) - maybe Spurs travelled up post game and he stayed with the squad until Boxing Day morning, or continued on from where they arrived.

A fascinating insight into the football of old. Interested to hear more!

If it was a weekday service on Boxing Day it looks as though he could get to Sunderland at 10.55. However, if it is still a reduced service then he would be lucky to get there by dark.

 

[30907]

Christmas Day train services didn't really decline until after ww2. I would have expected a Sunday service minus the "returning weekender" trains, much as might have operated on Easter Day. So almost certainly at least one overnight train to Newcastle and possibly one to Sunderland via the Coast.

 

[stuving]

I have found an LNER advert in the Saffron Walden Weekly News of 21 December 1923 for travel to the Spurs v. Huddersfield Town match on Christmas Day. This only covers travel from East Anglia, presumably by Spurs supporters, with cheap fares on specific normal trains (not specials). For example, leaving Cambridge at 9.5 (6s 1d) to Northumberland Park, with the return departing at 2.22.

But on "ordinary" match days the timings appear to have been different. For the match on 15th December 1923 against Blackburn, the departure time from Cambridge was 11.54 and the return had to be "by any train after 4.0 p.m., or by special at 4.35".

The Daily Mirror started a piece on Boxing Day about these fixture pairs with this about the Huddersfield/Spurs game:

This goes on to mention other fixtures involving similar distances on those two days. So obviously this sort of schedule was regarded as very demanding at the time.

 

[Gloster]

There seems to be a long gap in the afternoon, both on weekdays and Sundays, so the likelihood is that the 5.00 p.m. would still be the earliest train he could catch.

 

[stuving]

The Huddersfield Daily Examiner of 24 December 1923 noted the next day's match as "a morning match", and starting at 11:30. I can't see anything about travel to the match, so I guess that hardly any travelling supporters were expected. Isn't the logic of the return match the next day that all supporters get to see a home match?

In that case, the early time for the first would be to make the teams' travel between matches easier.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Nov 2025 ==

I note from the match report in the Huddersfield Daily Examiner on 27 December 1923 that Spurs lost 2-1. Also, the name Seed does not appear in the report or the team list. Both teams lost players due to injury, and it is clear that substitutes were not used. So was Jimmy even required to be present during the game?

 

[Gloster]

If he was at the match in Huddersfield, even with a normal weekday service he wouldn’t get to Newcastle until 6.45 p.m. and Sunderland at half-seven. With a Sunday service it would be the following morning.

My feeling is that he may just have had to accept a late or night train and a couple of cold hours at Newcastle. Such things were normal in those days.

 

[James Dutton]

Wow, I'm gobsmacked at how many replies my post has already received. That's truly amazing.

It's late, but I'll read them all again tomorrow. You have been so helpful, thanks so much!


Stu
Yes, Jimmy didn't play in the Boxing Day fixture, we think because he got permission to attend his sister's wedding.

Apparently Xmas Day matches normally kicked-off early so that people could get home afterwards to have their Xmas lunch/dinner with family. Also, pre floodlights, kicking off in winter at 3pm was too late, so games would often have a 2pm kick off time.

Someone should write a book about footballers and trains in the first part of the 20th century!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2025 ==

I have looked in the reprint of the July 1922 Bradshaw, which should give a rough idea even though there are no details of Christmas changes. I would think that there probably would have been at least one sleeper to Newcastle, although probably nothing direct to Sunderland. At Newcastle he could have changed to a local train to Sunderland, although the service would probably be sparse. It is quite possible that he might have arrived back in time for breakfast.

Thanks Gloster. He may have stopped at Newcastle's Royal Station Hotel after his journey. This is speculation of course, but he could have rested before getting a later train to Sunderland for the wedding (there was , and stayed there again overnight before making the return journey to King's Cross.

Jimmy signed for Sunderland as an 18 yr old before war broke out and played a full season for the reserves while living in Whitburn. He used to walk to Roker Park (and back) every day on his way to training, although I suspect with his wife in tow, he would have taken a taxi from Sunderland station to Whitburn Parish Church, or to Rose Cottages where two siblings and his father were living, rather than walking.

As an aside I've just realised, Jimmy Seed's daughter, my mother, was born on 24th September 1924, making this wedding well within the conception zone

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2025 ==

I can find few newspaper notices from railways about their Christmas services. There are general ones from LMS and GWR that both say that on Christmas Day 2023 a Sunday service will run, and on Boxing Day a weekday service, but with some changes. Nothing from LNER, and nothing specific to overnight trains.

We had a discussion here just recently about when third-class sleepers first ran - answer 1928. So in 1923 only first-class sleeper berths were available - could a footballer afford to travel first class? In 1928 an LNER 1st class sleeper cost £1, on top of the fare.

I'm pretty sure that sleeping cars then ran in trains with seated carriages, not in exclusive sleeper trains. Most people travelling overnight - and quite a lot did - would be in a seat, and not have a very comfortable journey.

I think Jimmy could have afforded to travel first class. Although the footballer's maximum wage of £8 doesn't sound much, it was around double the average 'working man's' wage at that time.

He also supplemented his income by drawing cartoons of the famous footballers of the day, for various newspapers. His wife was a nurse before she became a mother, which also would have helped. She may have accompanied him to the wedding, althought that's not certain.

Good point that there weren't exclusive sleeper trains. I hadn't though of that.

 

[James Dutton]

I wonder how the Huddersfield team got home that evening? In the spirit of Xmas perhaps they put him up for the night, allowing him to continue to Sunderland the next morning?

The match was an 11.05 kick-off, so a train soon after the match I expect. Travelling up with his teammated is an option I hadn't thought of!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2025 ==

I have found an LNER advert in the Saffron Walden Weekly News of 21 December 1923 for travel to the Spurs v. Huddersfield Town match on Christmas Day. This only covers travel from East Anglia, presumably by Spurs supporters, with cheap fares on specific normal trains (not specials). For example, leaving Cambridge at 9.5 (6s 1d) to Northumberland Park, with the return departing at 2.22.

But on "ordinary" match days the timings appear to have been different. For the match on 15th December 1923 against Blackburn, the departure time from Cambridge was 11.54 and the return had to be "by any train after 4.0 p.m., or by special at 4.35".

The Daily Mirror started a piece on Boxing Day about these fixture pairs with this about the Huddersfield/Spurs game:
View attachment 192283
This goes on to mention other fixtures involving similar distances on those two days. So obviously this sort of schedule was regarded as very demanding at the time.

That's great research Stu. Would that Daily Mirror piece have been published on Christmas Eve, as it talks about Huddersfield travelling to White Hart Lane 'tomorrow'?

The special deal for football fans is especially interesting, and the suggested trains (9.05 and 2.22) shows how the journey times weren't as long as you might think, with the kick-off time being 11.05.

 

[Gloster]

The match was an 11.05 kick-off, so a train soon after the match I expect. Travelling up with his teammated is an option I hadn't thought of!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2025 ==



That's great research Stu. Would that Daily Mirror piece have been published on Christmas Eve, as it talks about Huddersfield travelling to White Hart Lane 'tomorrow'?

The special deal for football fans is especially interesting, and the suggested trains (9.05 and 2.22) shows how the journey times weren't as long as you might think, with the kick-off time being 11.05.

As mentioned in #9, if he and the Spurs team went to Huddersfield after the Christmas Day match, which seems highly likely, he could only have arrived in Sunderland at best at 10.55 on Boxing Day, but if the train service was not back to a full weekday one then it might be much later.

I think that the train at 9.05 may have been a regular express that just made a special stop at Northumberland Park. (Fill up the trains on a quiet day.)

 

[WestAnglian]

As mentioned in #9, if he and the Spurs team went to Huddersfield after the Christmas Day match, which seems highly likely, he could only have arrived in Sunderland at best at 10.55 on Boxing Day, but if the train service was not back to a full weekday one then it might be much later.

I think that the train at 9.05 may have been a regular express that just made a special stop at Northumberland Park. (Fill up the trains on a quiet day.)

Nobody in this thread has mentioned specials or excursions. Wouldn't a special have been an effective way to get teams and fans to and from games?

 

[Dave W]

I can't see another method that the Spurs team would have reached the return fixture (or Huddersfield down to London).

So a mid afternoon departure to arrive Huddersfield early evening - then Mr Seed could have travelled on north either the same evening or the following morning - although as Gloster says that may not have been an option depending on timetables.

All this is conjecture in terms of times as I don't have access to timetables like others in the thread, but it would seem the most sensible option in the context of the time. Not like he took a helicopter is it

 

[Gloster]

Do you what time the wedding was and what time he would need to be at the church? And was the church in the middle of Whitburn or out on the edge?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The match was an 11.05 kick-off

Was that the case for all FL fixtures played on Christmas Day, or just the one at White Hart Lane? Think the match at Leeds Road, Huddersfield on Boxing Day *might* have been a 2.15 p.m. K.O.

 

[James Dutton]

Do you what time the wedding was and what time he would need to be at the church? And was the church in the middle of Whitburn or out on the edge?

Whitburn village was very small in 1923, and the Church was central.

Unfortunately we don't know the time of the wedding. I think if he caught a train to Newcastle or Sunderland on Christmas Day after the match he should have made it in time even if it was at 11am. Getting to Sunderland usually involved a change at Durham.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2025 ==

Was that the case for all FL fixtures played on Christmas Day, or just the one at White Hart Lane? Think the match at Leeds Road, Huddersfield on Boxing Day *might* have been a 2.15 p.m. K.O.

I think you might be right about the Boxing Day match. I'm not sure about other Christmas Day matches. The thing that intrigues me is why it would kick off at 1105 rather than 1100?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Nov 2025 ==

I just want to say thanks a lot for all the replies to my original post. I've learned so much already, and now I'm certain he would have got on the first train he could have after the match - to either Newcastle or Sunderland. And could have jumped on one with a sleeper carriage. Learning that it was an 1105 kick-off has made it seem much more feasible.

I've heard estimates that it would have taken between six to eight hours on a steam train to reach Newcastle. Does that sound about right? And I gather the Flying Scotsman locomotive was 'launched' earlier in the year, so he might have even go there more quickly?

PS The map of Whitburn was a little bit earlier, around 1909 I think.

 

[Gloster]

Would he actually have gone to Sunderland if his destination was Whitburn? Sunderland would be the obvious station if he was using a through train from London, but if he had to change, then East Boldon station on the Newcastle-Sunderland line was only about two miles from Whitburn. Alternatively, from Newcastle there were also the electrics to South Shield, which might start quite early: Tyne Dock and High Shields are only three to four miles away from Whitburn.

 

[stuving]

I've now found a lot more news reports of both matches. There are some odd contradictions among them: some say both matches were played on frozen pitches, with the one at Huddersfield covered in snow; others say there had been a thaw on Christmas Day and the pitch was not bad for the second one!

The printed teams lists show both teams had the same teams for both matches, with the single exception of Thompson replacing Seed as Spurs' inside right. There is also as general football "gossip" column that confirms that replacement, but does not mention why (Daily News (London) 28 December 1923, p9). Some comments did say these were the strongest teams available, and while I think club squads were smaller I suspect that was said more because second-string teams were not uncommon then.

 

[Bevan Price]

Well into the early 1960s, Footexes were run for many games when large numbers of visiting supporters were expected. Even in the mid 1950s, for the Good Friday Rugby League match between Wigan & St. Helens, there were at least 6 Ruggex-es from St. Helens to Wigan. (At that time, Sunday services ran on most Bank Holidays.)

 

[Gloster]

Somehow I doubt that many supporters would travel from London to Huddersfield on Boxing Day, both for price and ‘upsetting the family’ reasons. Nor do I reckon that the team would have had a special train: possibly an extra coach would be attached to a regular train, but more likely they would just have reserved seats (First for any senior club officials who might go and Third for the players).

One other thought is whether the team would go from Euston, Huddersfield having been L&NWR. If so, he might not travel with the team at all.

 

[stuving]

I too think that few fans travelled to distant away matches. Most supporters worked Saturday mornings, so could not travel far at all before a match at winter timings. They went to home matches, and local derby matches as well - that's why those got such huge crowds.

As I said before, I think the Christmas double header was done largely so everyone got a home match they could go to, and very few would travel to see both. And starting the Christmas day match early was also common for longer distances. Remember that the Huddersfield newspaper item I found said the OP's one on 25th was at 11:30.

On ordinary match days, there were some special trains, though most seem to be over shorter distances. The
LNER advert I found before was just for East Anglia, and perhaps only for trains that went through Northumberland Park. And even in August 1923 (so a friendly?), GWR ran a half-day excursion to Ashton Gate for Bristol City v. Manchester United, but only from Clifton Down (leave 2.18 for 2.45 arrival, return at 5.5).

On Saturday 15th December 1923, in the Nottingham Journal; LMS were advertising a lot of Christmas excursions, and in the list were "day trains for various various places ... for Boxing Day, including one to London for the Chelsea and Nottingham Forest football match. On Thursday, a day trip is being run to London in connection with the Arsenal and Notts County match." I guess that's Thursday 26th?

So obviously there was some demand for match day travel starting too early to be after work (and on a Thursday, even in Christmas week, who had a day off?) There were also special football excursions by charabanc, though only over short distance. But I still think that travelling support would be quite limited.

 

[James Dutton]

Would he actually have gone to Sunderland if his destination was Whitburn? Sunderland would be the obvious station if he was using a through train from London, but if he had to change, then East Boldon station on the Newcastle-Sunderland line was only about two miles from Whitburn. Alternatively, from Newcastle there were also the electrics to South Shield, which might start quite early: Tyne Dock and High Shields are only three to four miles away from Whitburn.

Not sure, but what I do know is that when he used to play for Sunderland in his youth he'd walk from Whitburn to Roker Park every day, which was 2.2 miles each way, so he was used to the walk. I think East Boldon is about 2.5, so not much in it. But he could have taken a Hackney Carriage from Sunderland station to Whitburn, or even the Model T Ford that that the 'taxi firm' had introduced the year before.

 

[Andy873]

I'm currently writing a book about my grandfather, footballer Jimmy Seed, who played for Spurs and England in the 1920s.

On Christmas Day Spurs played Huddersfield at White Hart Lane, but rather than playing in the return leg on Boxing Day we believe Jimmy attended his sister's wedding up in Whitburn (near Sunderland). She was munitionette footballer, Minnie Seed.

Interesting subject! As mentioned earlier Thompson did replace your grandfather for the boxing day match.

One thing I have learnt after asking lots of questions on here is that during holidays, people were prepared to get up very early even for just a day trip. I have examples of trippers leaving at no less than 3am! from East Lancashire to have a day out in North Wales returning home at around 9pm. The other thing to note is railway companies were very switched on to events such as football matches. It's very likely there was at least one train from London up to Huddersfield for Spurs fans to watch the game, possibly taking the team with them.

I don't know how Jimmy got to where he was going but if there was a football special and he was on it I could easily imagine Jimmy arriving at Huddersfield say around 9am. From there you could assume he'd be in good time for an onward train to get to the wedding.

I think you might be right about the Boxing Day match. I'm not sure about other Christmas Day matches. The thing that intrigues me is why it would kick off at 1105 rather than 1100?

James, it's a good question. As it's Christmas time there could well have been a brass band playing, some sort of religious ceremony before the game, or maybe sadly a former Huddersfield player had recently died?

Andy.

 

[James Dutton]

I too think that few fans travelled to distant away matches. Most supporters worked Saturday mornings, so could not travel far at all before a match at winter timings. They went to home matches, and local derby matches as well - that's why those got such huge crowds.

As I said before, I think the Christmas double header was done largely so everyone got a home match they could go to, and very few would travel to see both. And starting the Christmas day match early was also common for longer distances. Remember that the Huddersfield newspaper item I found said the OP's one on 25th was at 11:30.

On ordinary match days, there were some special trains, though most seem to be over shorter distances. The
LNER advert I found before was just for East Anglia, and perhaps only for trains that went through Northumberland Park. And even in August 1923 (so a friendly?), GWR ran a half-day excursion to Ashton Gate for Bristol City v. Manchester United, but only from Clifton Down (leave 2.18 for 2.45 arrival, return at 5.5).

On Saturday 15th December 1923, in the Nottingham Journal; LMS were advertising a lot of Christmas excursions, and in the list were "day trains for various various places ... for Boxing Day, including one to London for the Chelsea and Nottingham Forest football match. On Thursday, a day trip is being run to London in connection with the Arsenal and Notts County match." I guess that's Thursday 26th?

So obviously there was some demand for match day travel starting too early to be after work (and on a Thursday, even in Christmas week, who had a day off?) There were also special football excursions by charabanc, though only over short distance. But I still think that travelling support would be quite limited.

Yes, as others have said, away travel wasn't a thing - pre WW2 at least - and it was more common for fans to catch another local match on a day when their team was playing away. This even extended to Charlton and Millwall fans in the days before partisanship became much more intense. But although far fewer fans travelled to away games than do now, the fact that they used to advertise excursions to football matches is very interesting, and shows that some did. Perhaps this was an early indication of what was to come.

I'm really glad that I posted on this forum because it's much clearer in my mind that Jimmy could have made it to the wedding fairly easily, even if it was 11am on Boxing Day. It's a crucial event in the book, and I might have had to gloss over it if it had seemed unlikely than he could have made it.

PS Did you know that Charlton fans are often referred to as 'the Trainspotters'? I think it's part of the reason why they take so many fans to away games - they enjoy the journey as much as the match (and much more if they lost).