Heathrow Southern Link

[fandroid]

And the car park wouldn't be in ULEZ (a major incentive for building said station in that location). I'd place the station and car park on the field south of J14, next to the quarry off Leylands Ln.
Using the map here, that area is exempted from ULEZ, due to the only access for Stanwell Moor in Surrey, formerly Middlesex, is from that junction and the A3113 Airport Way:

ULEZ will be almost an entirely irrelevant issue by the time any southern link to Heathrow is built. Some posters seem to imagine that a large number of those going to Heathrow will be driving aged and smelly old bangers in ten years time.

 

[AlastairFraser]

ULEZ will be almost an entirely irrelevant issue by the time any southern link to Heathrow is built. Some posters seem to imagine that a large number of those going to Heathrow will be driving aged and smelly old bangers in ten years time.

Of course, but it's a convenient location for the people of Stanwell Moor too.

 

[Farningham]

ULEZ will be almost an entirely irrelevant issue by the time any southern link to Heathrow is built. Some posters seem to imagine that a large number of those going to Heathrow will be driving aged and smelly old bangers in ten years time.

You seriously imagine that the recent expansion will be the end of it? The investment in all the cameras will be wasted if they are just there to check on compliance with 2023 emissions standards. The requirements to drive into London will be constantly raised, along with the fee increasing faster than inflation, and ULEZ (or whatever it is called then) will certainly be an issue in 10 years' time when today's hybrids will be described as 'smelly old bangers'.

 

[Farigiraf]

I guess it’s expected that Gatwick would be their primary airport and therefore not enough demand to go to Heathrow (apart from Kent which has objectively awful connections to every county)

If the redevelopment doesn't go well somehow, we could hopefully see Manston used as an alternative for budget airlines to land to. Gatwick from Kent isn't great either.

 

[fandroid]

You seriously imagine that the recent expansion will be the end of it? The investment in all the cameras will be wasted if they are just there to check on compliance with 2023 emissions standards. The requirements to drive into London will be constantly raised, along with the fee increasing faster than inflation, and ULEZ (or whatever it is called then) will certainly be an issue in 10 years' time when today's hybrids will be described as 'smelly old bangers'.

A more likely development is enforcement of a national standard, for reasons beyond air quality, so nuanced positioning of car parks will potentially look very silly

 

[AlastairFraser]

If the redevelopment doesn't go well somehow, we could hopefully see Manston used as an alternative for budget airlines to land to. Gatwick from Kent isn't great either.

I support the idea of reopening Manston too, but it's currently being turned into a cargo airport, freeing up capacity at the bigger airports.
Southend has some spare capacity too, so expect to see this used more by the budget airlines in coming years, especially with the reasonably priced direct rail connection.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Sep 2023 ==

A more likely development is enforcement of a national standard, for reasons beyond air quality, so nuanced positioning of car parks will potentially look very silly

With or without ULEZ, a reasonably priced large long stay car park on top of a train station a 5 min ride from Heathrow Airport would be a 1) a good option for flyers driving in, 2) a good link for the people of Stanwell Moor both in and out of London, and 3) a good place to connect to for long distance buses that don't want to waste time diverting into the Heathrow road network proper.

 

[Fazaar1889]

Will this route be ran by South Western Railway or the Elizabeth Line?

I think, using my naïve viewpoint, it would be an extension of the Heathrow express to Virginia water, Byfleet and New Haw, Woking and Guildford. That would cross a number of major(ish) interchanges. 30 minutes from Guildford to Heathrow, according to their website, seems pretty attractive imo.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I think, using my naïve viewpoint, it would be an extension of the Heathrow express to Virginia water, Byfleet and New Haw, Woking and Guildford. That would cross a number of major(ish) interchanges. 30 minutes from Guildford to Heathrow, according to their website, seems pretty attractive imo.

Going as far as Woking and Guildford would only be possible in the longer term with some very expensive infrastructure works.

And Heathrow Express extension is unlikely - it's been proposed several times to get rid and use the paths for EL and more GWR Intercity services (because HeX services use the GWML fasts to get to Stockley Park, where they diverge for Heathrow).
Extending the EL Heathrow T5 terminators to Staines via a station at Stanwell Moor would provide decent connections and there is room at Staines for a dedicated bay platform.

 

[The Ham]

Going as far as Woking and Guildford would only be possible in the longer term with some very expensive infrastructure works.

And Heathrow Express extension is unlikely - it's been proposed several times to get rid and use the paths for EL and more GWR Intercity services (because HeX services use the GWML fasts to get to Stockley Park, where they diverge for Heathrow).
Extending the EL Heathrow T5 terminators to Staines via a station at Stanwell Moor would provide decent connections and there is room at Staines for a dedicated bay platform.

Whilst the works would be fairly expensive, they would also allow better connectivity for a LOT of people, for example the Aldershot Urban Area (station - Farnborough Main) is about 250,000 people.

That's on a par with Plymouth and Milton Keynes whilst it's smaller than the Reading Urban Area not by all that much (320,000).

On top of that by connecting to Woking you put Heathrow one stop away from Portsmouth, Salisbury , Andover and the like as well as improve the number of trains from Southampton, Winchester, Bornemouth which can be used to get to Heathrow with just one change (not only the frequency but the capacity of each train).

The suggestion of using the Hex paths makes sense if you are looking to also build the western approach, as those services would use the same paths as the Hex paths just on the western side. Something you can't do if they are being used for more services between Reading and Paddington (which may go beyond Reading).

 

[Bald Rick]

The suggestion of using the Hex paths makes sense if you are looking to also build the western approach, as those services would use the same paths as the Hex paths just on the western side. Something you can't do if they are being used for more services between Reading and Paddington (which may go beyond Reading).

The Hex paths don’t exist on the western side…

 

[AlastairFraser]

Whilst the works would be fairly expensive, they would also allow better connectivity for a LOT of people, for example the Aldershot Urban Area (station - Farnborough Main) is about 250,000 people.

That's on a par with Plymouth and Milton Keynes whilst it's smaller than the Reading Urban Area not by all that much (320,000).

On top of that by connecting to Woking you put Heathrow one stop away from Portsmouth, Salisbury , Andover and the like as well as improve the number of trains from Southampton, Winchester, Bornemouth which can be used to get to Heathrow with just one change (not only the frequency but the capacity of each train).

The suggestion of using the Hex paths makes sense if you are looking to also build the western approach, as those services would use the same paths as the Hex paths just on the western side. Something you can't do if they are being used for more services between Reading and Paddington (which may go beyond Reading).

I wonder if an intermediate proposal would be to extend the new services over the Staines - Weybridge section of the Waterloo to Weybridge via Hounslow service and terminate that at Staines, then stop some fasts at Weybridge instead (perhaps the Pompey?).

 

[miklcct]

Where’s the demand for Gatwick to Heathrow coming from? It’s a regularly touted idea, but who actually needs to do the journey? If needed, why won’t they go via Farringdon, likely to be just as fast anyway.

If needed the option is usually a coach, or even a minicab instead, as suggested in travel forums.

 

[miklcct]

Trouble with the Elizabeth Line is that any capacity you add to Terminal 5 and beyond the less there would be on the rest of the network. Currently there are 2tph to Terminal 5, 4tph to Terminal 4 and 6tph (peak) towards Maidenhead.

If the aforementioned 4tph Staines, 2tph Woking, 2tph Weybridge pattern went ahead that would mean only 2tph could head to Terminal 4 and Reading and the network couldn’t cope

In this case, change the T4 back to a shuttle, such that all 6 Heathrow trains go to T5 and beyond.

 

[Bald Rick]

This thread is neatly exposing what the main issue with this proposal is, ie how to make use of it if it is built. There are no easy answers - a ‘cheaper’ solution (still big ££) means terminating at Staines which will attract limited traffic; to gain the traffic you need to get to Woking and beyond and that gets more expensive, and of course finding capacity is not straightforward. Then there is the issue of rolling stock, resourcing it, etc etc.

I wonder if an intermediate proposal would be to extend the new services over the Staines - Weybridge section of the Waterloo to Weybridge via Hounslow service and terminate that at Staines, then stop some fasts at Weybridge instead (perhaps the Pompey?).

There’s no fast line platforms at Weybridge, and the slow line is usually occupied at the time the Portsmouths are passing.

 

[AlastairFraser]

There’s no fast line platforms at Weybridge, and the slow line is usually occupied at the time the Portsmouths are passing.

Ah OK, which longer distance service could you potentially pull off the fasts and where?

 

[Bald Rick]

Ah OK, which longer distance service could you potentially pull off the fasts and where?

The ones that already do (at Surbiton). Whether there is space for a Weybridge stop, i dont know.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The ones that already do (at Surbiton). Whether there is space for a Weybridge stop, i dont know.

Seems like a solution with a better BCR than extending the whole way to Woking or B'stoke first tbh.

 

[JonathanH]

Seems like a solution with a better BCR than extending the whole way to Woking or B'stoke first tbh.

Only if passenger projections suggest that sufficient passengers would put up with the inconvenience of multiple changes.

Weybridge is served by the half hourly Basingstoke slow and the half hourly Woking stopper, with off-pattern services to Guildford in the peak. A relatively limited catchment area, which is why there are coach links from Woking and Guildford to Heathrow.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Only if passenger projections suggest that sufficient passengers would put up with the inconvenience of multiple changes.

Weybridge is served by the half hourly Basingstoke slow and the half hourly Woking stopper, with off-pattern services to Guildford in the peak. A relatively limited catchment area, which is why there are coach links from Woking and Guildford to Heathrow.

And there is now an express bus from Bracknell/Camberley too. Through ticketing on that might be the initial solution to build support in the meantime.

 

[Bald Rick]

Seems like a solution with a better BCR than extending the whole way to Woking or B'stoke first tbh.

I doubt it. Interchange at Weybridge for a half hourly trip to Heathrow will put a lot of people off. The market for the Southern link is Woking / Guildford / and the Blackwater valley conurbation.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I doubt it. Interchange at Weybridge for a half hourly trip to Heathrow will put a lot of people off. The market for the Southern link is Woking / Guildford / and the Blackwater valley conurbation.

What about the long distance traffic who want to avoid driving though?

 

[JonathanH]

What about the long distance traffic who want to avoid driving though?

Coaches - either from Woking, or Southampton / Bournemouth / Poole.

 

[Bald Rick]

What about the long distance traffic who want to avoid driving though?

That will only be from locations served by the services that serve Southampton, Portsmouth and Salisbury (and Alton). And they couldnt all stop at Weybridge, so some woudl be changing twice. At an educated guess there will be fewer passengers to LHR from further than from Woking / Guildford / Blackwater Valley, because

a) frequent fliers are more likely to choose to live closer to the airport
b) There is quite a bit of commuting from Guildford / Woking etc to LHR for work - much less of that from further out.

In any event, those that do want to travel to LHR from further out would change at Woking, where the wait would be 14 mins max.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That will only be from locations served by the services that serve Southampton, Portsmouth and Salisbury (and Alton). And they couldnt all stop at Weybridge, so some woudl be changing twice. At an educated guess there will be fewer passengers to LHR from further than from Woking / Guildford / Blackwater Valley, because

a) frequent fliers are more likely to choose to live closer to the airport
b) There is quite a bit of commuting from Guildford / Woking etc to LHR for work - much less of that from further out.

In any event, those that do want to travel to LHR from further out would change at Woking, where the wait would be 14 mins max.

Decent explanation.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 Nov 2023 ==

Coaches - either from Woking, or Southampton / Bournemouth / Poole.

The RailAir from Woking I could understand, but Soton/Bmth/Poole is too far for a coach journey for most flyers to consider

 

[JonathanH]

The RailAir from Woking I could understand, but Soton/Bmth/Poole is too far for a coach journey for most flyers to consider

National Express ran 10 coaches from Bournemouth / Poole and 9 from Portsmouth / Southampton to Heathrow today.

 

[AlastairFraser]

National Express ran 10 coaches from Bournemouth / Poole and 9 from Portsmouth / Southampton to Heathrow today.

But in terms of establishing significant modal shift.....

 

[PTR 444]

National Express ran 10 coaches from Bournemouth / Poole

I reckon all those passengers could fit onto a single 10-car Class 444.

 

[cle]

Rail has far greater appeal, not to mention the concept of coach to rail transfer, just to get to an airport.

I’d think between Basingstoke, Winchester and Southampton at least, you might justify an hourly service. High rail use towns all in a fast corridor. Farnborough likely to be high potential too.

 

[chris2]

Last time I caught a coach to London from Southampton there was a Heathrow-bound coach leaving at the same time which had about twice as many passengers on it.

From here, there is no direct public transport link to Heathrow other than the coach. You can go to Woking by train and change onto a coach but I expect a lot of people think it’s easier just to get one coach all the way. Not sure how the price compares but I suspect there’s no incentive to take the train part of the way.

From Southampton, most trains end up in Waterloo, but there is a Gatwick service that runs into Victoria. This is very handy for the airport and definitely beats driving time and cost wise. I’ve known people get to London this way too as it’s cheaper, even though much longer.

So if that can work, perhaps a similar London-bound service that went Southampton -> Winchester -> Basingstoke -> Heathrow and then onto Old Oak Common (for hs2) and into Paddington could as well?

 

[edwin_m]

So if that can work, perhaps a similar London-bound service that went Southampton -> Winchester -> Basingstoke -> Heathrow and then onto Old Oak Common (for hs2) and into Paddington could as well?

Unlikely there would be capacity for that. The 2-track section of the route has a combination of fast and slow passenger trains plus freight, so is likely to be full even with a low number of trains per hour. A Heathrow train would need to be additional rather than replacing any of the existing ones.

I believe extending the current Heathrow Express paths would be the best option for the southern link, as it also allows connections to HS2 at Old Oak and alternatives such as Paddington-Heathrow-Reading just provide a slower alternative to existing services. Just not as far as Southampton.