Heathrow Southern Link

[MPW]

Fair point on the EL capacity! Another unlikely possibility is West London Orbital which is planned to terminate at Hounslow.

There is a flat junction between Feltham and Hounslow but I am seeing only 5tph through Feltham at peak, currently split between the two eastern routes via Richmond and Hounslow.

Issues:
1. Capacity, might be 4 or 5 car trains and unsure of frequency given freight conflicts
2. Does not provide anywhere near as much new connectivity vs existing WLL plans and routes to the south, especially considering this will end up at OOC in the north of the route anyway!

 

[RobShipway]

Surely Heathrow to Woking should be a priority? If money was no object there’d be a dedicated line all the way, but there isn’t so joining it up with the Virginia Water - Weybridge Line makes the most practical sense.

Elizabeth Line trains from Staines to Waterloo on the other hand is just absurd. Where are the extra paths going to come from on the Reading - Waterloo Line, and what about all the level crossings that will be down for much longer? It’d make much more sense to run the existing Hounslow loop trains into Heathrow.

Why would Heathrow to Woking be a priority?

If you work on population, last time I checked that is more people living within the area from Staines to London Waterloo, than there is in Woking, which already has 40 minute bus journeys to Airport. Last time I checked it takes longer than 40 minutes by public transport to get from Richmond or London Waterloo as an example to Heathrow.

 

[PTR 444]

Why would Heathrow to Woking be a priority?

Easy interchange for an even larger combined population area - Blackwater Valley, Portsmouth, Southampton, Isle of Wight, Bournemouth, Salisbury etc

 

[PGAT]

Why would Heathrow to Woking be a priority?

If you work on population, last time I checked that is more people living within the area from Staines to London Waterloo, than there is in Woking, which already has 40 minute bus journeys to Airport. Last time I checked it takes longer than 40 minutes by public transport to get from Richmond or London Waterloo as an example to Heathrow.

Woking station is far busier than Staines, it gets about triple the annual passengers, and has a greater catchment area from other stations on the wider South Western network

 

[RobShipway]

Easy interchange for an even larger combined population area - Blackwater Valley, Portsmouth, Southampton, Isle of Wight, Bournemouth, Salisbury etc

Woking station is far busier than Staines, it gets about triple the annual passengers, and has a greater catchment area from other stations on the wider South Western network

I know people will mention the stations from Reading on the GWML when I mention this comment, but the Elizabeth line is a a Cross London Service, Woking is not within Greater London which the Elizabeth line trains where built to serve. I don't believe that westwards from Staines which is the area that the area that the Southern connection would have to come out too, that there is space to make the bridge connection go both eastwards into Staines which it will need to do and Westwards on towards Woking. If there was the ability for the southern connection from Heathrow to split to two exits, then I would be saying that the trains should be going on to Guildford to replace the Waterloo - Guildford services.

 

[PGAT]

Yes I do agree it’s not viable to have Elizabeth Line trains go as far as Woking. Ideally it would be a shuttle between Heathrow and Woking/Weybridge

 

[Railwaysceptic]

I would personally build a grade separated alignment from Heathrow T5 to Virginia Water, joining up with and taking over the line to Weybridge. The Virginia Water - Weybridge/Byfleet Line would become exclusively used by extended Heathrow Express trains, while there would also be a spur to Staines for an Elizabeth Line extension.

Exclusively? That line is also used by freight services.

 

[kevin_roche]

BBC News has reported the Mayor's comments too. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66716733

The line has been proposed by Heathrow Southern Railway Ltd (HSR) which has said it could open in 2027/28.
Mr Khan said the rail link would support a shift to sustainable travel and transform access to the airport.
HSR said the railway would also improve Surrey-London connectivity.

 

[JN114]

The airport itself wants Western access towards Slough and Reading, as that serves a greater portion of workers who currently travel in by car.

So build both schemes, it shouldn’t be one or other. There’s significant savings to be had by doing both at once.

Of the 4tph HEx, let 2tph continue to each of Reading and Woking in lieu of the railair coaches; with maybe a couple of stops in each (Slough/Maidenhead, and Staines/Chertsey perhaps)

The 2tph Elizabeth line via T5 extend to Maidenhead all stations.

TfL (as the Mayor is so keen) then introduce a new 4tph Terminal 5 to Waterloo semi-fast service, perhaps 2 via Richmond and 2 via Hounslow.

With a 4 platform T5 using the theoretical layout that was baked into the original station design, the northern half of which was what was fitted out, you can easily have 6tph through the outer platforms with 4tph reversing in the centre pair of platforms.

 

[chris2]

This is what the company HSRL published of their suggested services in 2021. If services were to connect into OOC, then you're opening up access from the south to HS2 as well as Heathrow.

https://heathrowrail.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/HSR-Transforming-Rail-Access-Brochure-v7.pdf

 

[cle]

There is no way the Elizabeth line will go back to Waterloo!

EL trains or HEx would 100% terminate at Staines. And that would be a secondary ambition or upside of this project. The core purpose being Waterloo - Clapham Junction - Richmond/Hounslow - Staines - LHR.

And Surrey services are also secondary, but would not be EL either!

 

[RobShipway]

Yes I do agree it’s not viable to have Elizabeth Line trains go as far as Woking. Ideally it would be a shuttle between Heathrow and Woking/Weybridge

Thank you @kevin_roche

Note that the BBC report https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66716733 states the following:

"The line would enable trains to operate between Heathrow and Waterloo via Clapham Junction, Putney, Hounslow, Twickenham, Richmond, Staines and other intermediate stations.
A second branch has been proposed to run from the airport to Virginia Water, enabling services out towards Surrey, Berkshire and Hampshire."

The link from Heathrow to Staines I know has long been a plan of many people to see be built, which is why I thought that would be more of a priority with it going to London Waterloo, than any route serving either Woking or Virgina Water. In the long run you would have a connection from Reading to Heathrow, whether that is at Langley on the GWML or whether it is at Staines on the Reading - London Waterloo route or possibly both, who knows. But I do agree with @JN114 comment below that you really need both routes:

The airport itself wants Western access towards Slough and Reading, as that serves a greater portion of workers who currently travel in by car.

So build both schemes, it shouldn’t be one or other. There’s significant savings to be had by doing both at once.

Of the 4tph HEx, let 2tph continue to each of Reading and Woking in lieu of the railair coaches; with maybe a couple of stops in each (Slough/Maidenhead, and Staines/Chertsey perhaps)

The 2tph Elizabeth line via T5 extend to Maidenhead all stations.

TfL (as the Mayor is so keen) then introduce a new 4tph Terminal 5 to Waterloo semi-fast service, perhaps 2 via Richmond and 2 via Hounslow.

With a 4 platform T5 using the theoretical layout that was baked into the original station design, the northern half of which was what was fitted out, you can easily have 6tph through the outer platforms with 4tph reversing in the centre pair of platforms.

If both routes where built I would leave Heathrow Express on the GWML, but extend it from through Heaathrow to Reading.

But I would have two other services as per the map that @chris2 has provided with one that goes to Wokingham, Bracknell, Heathrow T5, Heathrow T2 & T3 and then completes it's journey to Old Oak Common having come from Reading and another service that comes from Guildford that stops Woking, Heathrow T5, Heathrow T2 & T3, Old Oak Common and then goes on into London Paddington.

 

[Trainguy34]

another service that comes from Guildford that stops Woking, Heathrow T5, Heathrow T2 & T3, Old Oak Common and then goes on into London Paddington.

Would that be an extension of HX?

 

[RobShipway]

Would that be an extension of HX?

No, more likely replacing a commuter service from Guildford to London Waterloo accept going to London Paddington instead.

 

[andreading]

A simple option would be 2 TPH to Staines and interchange with 2 TPH service to chertsey which should be diverted to Woking

 

[PTR 444]

You could just build the southern link as far as Staines along with the missing side of the triangle to avoid a reversal there, but IMO it would be better to build new track all the way to Virginia Water to avoid eating up capacity at Egham. There can always be a crossover there for Staines - Weybridge and hypothetical Heathrow - Wokingham trains.

A revised plan:
2tph Elizabeth Line to Staines
2tph Heathrow Express extended to Woking (calling Virginia Water, Chertsey and Addlestone)
2tph Heathrow Express extended to Basingstoke (calling Woking, Farnborough and Fleet)

 

[Basil Jet]

No-one seems to be talking about the fact that T5 has OLE, while Staines and Woking and Hounslow have third rail. Elizabeth Line trains in particular have no shoes - could they be fitted?

 

[JonathanH]

The line has been proposed by Heathrow Southern Railway Ltd (HSR) which has said it could open in 2027/28.

Wow, that seems naive.

 

[PGAT]

No-one seems to be talking about the fact that T5 has OLE, while Staines and Woking and Hounslow have third rail. Elizabeth Line trains in particular have no shoes - could they be fitted?

Yes that is an issue that needs to be overcome. If I were to guess then the answer would be maybe but it wouldn't be that practical to switch to DC for a 5 minute journey. Perhaps there could be a third single AC track all the way to Staines and the other two tracks towards Virginia Water would have third rail and be operated by South Western Railway units. Although at this point there seems to be too many holes with the idea that there's a strong chance it will never make it past that article

 

[chris2]

It was mentioned somewhere above that the T5 station has additional platforms that could be used for future southern / western links.

But do these platforms allow for through-running or are they effectively terminus platforms facing opposite ways?

 

[JN114]

It was mentioned somewhere above that the T5 station has additional platforms that could be used for future southern / western links.

But do these platforms allow for through-running or are they effectively terminus platforms facing opposite ways?

The design of tunnels is for 4x through platforms on 2 islands, the northern of which were commissioned and built.

If you excuse the very crude sketch:- Red was built and commissioned. The tunnels exist for Blue and there’s passive provision already in the signalling.

 

[edwin_m]

If both routes where built I would leave Heathrow Express on the GWML, but extend it from through Heaathrow to Reading.

To me that's the least useful option. Journeys between east and west of Heathrow will be quicker by other routes so it doesn't create any through journey opportunities. My suggestion would be to start the Reading service at T5 and run both Crossrail through to Staines and Hex (or successor) somewhere beyond.

No-one seems to be talking about the fact that T5 has OLE, while Staines and Woking and Hounslow have third rail. Elizabeth Line trains in particular have no shoes - could they be fitted?

It was certainly being talked about when I was involved in 2009-10, and I think it has been included to allow extensions from Abbey Wood.

Yes that is an issue that needs to be overcome. If I were to guess then the answer would be maybe but it wouldn't be that practical to switch to DC for a 5 minute journey. Perhaps there could be a third single AC track all the way to Staines and the other two tracks towards Virginia Water would have third rail and be operated by South Western Railway units. Although at this point there seems to be too many holes with the idea that there's a strong chance it will never make it past that article

I'd take a guess at dual voltage or parallel tracks to access Staines with 25kV, and any service continuing beyond uses dual-voltage units and changes to third rail there.

 

[devon_belle]

Having longer-distance Gatwick express style services to Heathrow from various locations (not only south of the airport too) would be ideal in my opinion. The catchment area for the airport doesn't only include London I suspect. It could probably never happen, but integrated fares and trains with proper baggage areas might go a way to reducing road travel to the airport.

 

[JonathanH]

trains with proper baggage areas

You could argue that a class 345 is perfect for baggage, as you can have it by your seat without blocking other people. I think people prefer to have their baggage visible to them.

Having longer-distance Gatwick express style services to Heathrow from various locations (not only south of the airport too) would be ideal in my opinion.

Routeing the southern element of that through Chertsey would be very problematic though. If you ran a train from, for example, Bournemouth, would you then have to remove one of the trains from there to Waterloo to make the path available or would you have a basically empty train flighted behind a London service.

I note that no one feels Airport trains are done right in this country. Manchester Airport has trains from 'various locations' and yet many people want it to be a dedicated shuttle from Manchester Piccadilly. Gatwick works because it is on the way to the South Coast, but people then object to there being luggage on the trains into London. Heathrow Express is criticised for getting in the way and being too expensive.

 

[devon_belle]

You could argue that a class 345 is perfect for baggage, as you can have it by your seat without blocking other people. I think people prefer to have their baggage visible to them.

Very true, although they wouldn't be comfortable for journeys much longer. Even doing London to Reading on the transverse seats is pretty uncomfortable, but that issue isn't unique to class 345s.

 

[andreading]

I suggested diverting the Waterloo Virginia Water Chertsey Weybridge service to platform 3 at Woking because it uses a grade separated junction and central terminal platform. The local issue is ULEZ with the airport entirely in ULEZ and lots of the workforce living in Surrey and Berkshire. Reading Buses are already putting on Heathrow routes from Frimley, Camberley and Bagshot possibly with stops in Sunningdale and Egham. Rotala have just extended a route into Heathrow from Shepperton and Chertsey I think more may follow.

The initial route to Staines could be over dual voltage tracks approximately 1 mile to a new bay platform and is only competing for space with 2TPH to Windsor and Eton.

Heathrow from the west is currently served locally by changing at Hayes and Harlington so is no longer critical and will have fast train interchange at Old Oak Common in the future.

The south west access is important as the M25 is clogged at rush hour. the other simple option is a single line tunnel from T4 to Feltham.

 

[chris2]

The design of tunnels is for 4x through platforms on 2 islands, the northern of which were commissioned and built.

If you excuse the very crude sketch:- Red was built and commissioned. The tunnels exist for Blue and there’s passive provision already in the signalling.

Thanks @JN114 that's really helpful. Some welcome foresight from the design team there.

Gatwick works because it is on the way to the South Coast

And the direct service back from Southampton is very useful to get to Gatwick from the south coast (takes 2hrs, just about competitive with the drive). Few would go all the way to London that way.

 

[LUYMun]

Reading Buses are already putting on Heathrow routes from Frimley, Camberley and Bagshot possibly with stops in Sunningdale and Egham. Rotala have just extended a route into Heathrow from Shepperton and Chertsey I think more may follow.

Newbury & District (a subsidiary of Reading Buses) just began their 730/731 bus route to Basingstoke and Frimley but no stops in Sunningdale nor Egham. Diamond Bus introduced their 556 route alongside the existing 555, and White Bus plans to extend their 446 Woking-Staines route to Heathrow. Although these may sound positive, it only takes in a small catchment of the local area. Heathrow Southern IMO should be key to attracting the larger airport travelling market.

 

[Shalford]

An aspect of this proposal is that provided the link is established to Terminal 5 and then either by change of train or by through services it allows passengers from South West Suburbs and out to Basingstoke, Guildford to access HS/2 at Oak Common. This might spare some governmental blushes due to the late and expensive Euston issues. A second issue is there is a suggestion that the link might open land for housing, not sure where, but is obviously a consideration.

A through service Heathrow/Gatwick is very unlikely as a non-stop coach is likely to be quicker. It should be noted the North Downs Line has a constraint in that the Level Crossing at Reigate can cause major traffic issues (similar to Lincoln) it is difficult to see how many more trains can use the line without a major infrastructure intervention.

TFL are getting more interested in orbital routes in London as evidenced by the new bus routes, although outside London boundary this appears to be part of this evolving thought process.

Finally Heathrow has a strategy to reduce emissions from operating the airport and travel to from the airport - ideally they would like Southern and Western Access built ASAP - not sure they will come up with the money to enable the schemes.

 

[Bald Rick]

An aspect of this proposal is that provided the link is established to Terminal 5 and then either by change of train or by through services it allows passengers from South West Suburbs and out to Basingstoke, Guildford to access HS/2 at Oak Common. This might spare some governmental blushes due to the late and expensive Euston issues.

There is absolutely zero chance that a Southern link to Heathrow would be open before HS2 into Euston.