Heathrow Southern Link

[MarkyT]

The LO stations have no funding and look pretty unlikely - an out of station interchange just won’t be popular. The one on the Clapham line is even further away. And Looks like there will be a fair bit of walking even after the 300m to the station entrance!
Need a people mover from Willesden Junction to OOC, with a stop in the development area, and maybe an extension on to North Acton, or even South Ruislip (scope creep!)

In or out of station, 300m is similar to some LU interchange passageways and exceeded by many inter-terminal and terminal-to-gate walks within airports. If the OOC Lane station was built with subway access to its platforms, the passageway might pass under and emerge on the east side of the road, meaning no roads to cross between the station entrances and I think the route needs a canopy roof if possible too. A travelator over at least a portion of the way would help transfer time. It needn't be railside though as there's little chance of passengers being allowed to transfer between long-distance and LO services without going through a gateline, even if the platforms were right next door. I recall the Hyde Road station was dropped early on as development on that part of the wider site hasn't taken off and it'd be a longer, bleaker walk as an interchange. I'd divert half the west London line service via a new low-level platform at Willesden Jn to OOC Lane to terminate. There's a chance West London Orbital proposals could be a vehicle for developing a station here, including cost-effective NLL platforms because you've already got the subway and entrances by the WLO. I don't think it's ever been realistic to completely reroute the various OG routes so platforms are much closer to the HS2/GWR/EL complex. The site makes that very difficult with the extensive rolling stock depots and sidings on either side of the main lines. I'm all in favour of integrating an enlarged Willesden Junction into the West London superhub using a people mover.

 

[kevin_roche]

To be honest, all the above suggestions would not interest me. Unless there is a direct train to Heathrow and OOC from Basingstoke, I'll continue to drive to Gatwick for flights and existing services to Birmingham from Basingstoke will be easier and quicker than going to Clapham then OOC to change.

 

[cle]

To be honest, all the above suggestions would not interest me. Unless there is a direct train to Heathrow and OOC from Basingstoke, I'll continue to drive to Gatwick for flights and existing services to Birmingham from Basingstoke will be easier and quicker than going to Clapham then OOC to change.

Correct - individual, existing routings will still exist. And HS2/Southern Link will not be bespoke to you or anybody else's needs.

 

[Basil Jet]

In or out of station, 300m is similar to some LU interchange passageways and exceeded by many inter-terminal and terminal-to-gate walks within airports. If the OOC Lane station was built with subway access to its platforms, the passageway might pass under and emerge on the east side of the road, meaning no roads to cross between the station entrances and I think the route needs a canopy roof if possible too. A travelator over at least a portion of the way would help transfer time. It needn't be railside though as there's little chance of passengers being allowed to transfer between long-distance and LO services without going through a gateline, even if the platforms were right next door. I recall the Hyde Road station was dropped early on as development on that part of the wider site hasn't taken off and it'd be a longer, bleaker walk as an interchange. I'd divert half the west London line service via a new low-level platform at Willesden Jn to OOC Lane to terminate. There's a chance West London Orbital proposals could be a vehicle for developing a station here, including cost-effective NLL platforms because you've already got the subway and entrances by the WLO. I don't think it's ever been realistic to completely reroute the various OG routes so platforms are much closer to the HS2/GWR/EL complex. The site makes that very difficult with the extensive rolling stock depots and sidings on either side of the main lines. I'm all in favour of integrating an enlarged Willesden Junction into the West London superhub using a people mover.

Here's my version... it includes disconnecting the WLL from the NLL, making the southern end of the West London Orbital part of the NLL and the northern part of the WLO part of the WLL. It also reroutes the Southern Watford service via Old Oak Common (official proposals have the Southern service missing all OOC stations completely and passing Wiilesden Junction without stopping).

 

[kevin_roche]

Here's my version... it includes disconnecting the WLL from the NLL, making the southern end of the West London Orbital part of the NLL and the northern part of the WLO part of the WLL.

Unfortunately, too many other things are in the way.

 

[Meerkat]

A Willesden-OOC people mover would be transformational (as they like to say)
And looks all modern for attracting investors and people to new developments.

Of course the Dft would claim it meant HS2 went to Euston so a new station wasnt needed!

 

[MarkyT]

Here's my version... it includes disconnecting the WLL from the NLL, making the southern end of the West London Orbital part of the NLL and the northern part of the WLO part of the WLL. It also reroutes the Southern Watford service via Old Oak Common (official proposals have the Southern service missing all OOC stations completely and passing Wiilesden Junction without stopping).

I'd send it via my low-level Willesden Junction platform (linked to OOC via the people mover or an LO train).

Unfortunately, too many other things are in the way.

Indeed. If we'd had a long-term strategy for such a reroute two or three three decades ago we could have planned other assets around it, safeguarded space, made passive provision etc. But we didn't and the London Overground network wasn't even a thing back then, with the NLL a shadow of its current self.

 

[HSTEd]

The development of the site does appear to have proceeded with any kind of plan for the future.

A lot of connectivity options wasted, although myself I was partial to the Crossrail to Tring concept.

It is rather depressing that we have so many lines so close together but can't get a proper interchange, and even WLL is hamstrung by freight requirements to the point that the obvious OOC-Clapham interchange is not particularly attractive.

 

[cle]

A Willesden-OOC people mover would be transformational (as they like to say)
And looks all modern for attracting investors and people to new developments.

Of course the Dft would claim it meant HS2 went to Euston so a new station wasnt needed!

I think more realistic would be a walkway - with travelators. Possibly with a midway point - that spreads amongst a ton of development. But that would be a safeguarding thing dependent on density coming. And is this landside or 'airside'... I think landside for utility but again, only with development. The area needs to look like Stratford basically, to make it viable.

I can't see droves of OOC people using the travelator to access Willesden Junction, but possibly for the Overground.

If you needed the Bakerloo to e.g. Waterloo - you'd be walking to it at Paddington (and 6 stops down) via CR, before you got to the platforms at Willesden Junction.

And of all the Overground options, I see a WLO/NLL station being far more likely than a WLL one sadly. Which doesn't help the Clapham Junction feed - which is pretty critical for OOC/HS2 access, especially with the skepticism I have for when/if Euston opens.

 

[Basil Jet]

Unfortunately, too many other things are in the way.

I'm not convinced there is much in the way, unless a lot of building has already occurred there in the last few years that I'm not aware of (apart from the station). New electric passenger lines can be a lot steeper than old freight lines to get over or under stuff.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not convinced there is much in the way, unless a lot of building has already occurred there in the last few years that I'm not aware of (apart from the station). New electric passenger lines can be a lot steeper than old freight lines to get over or under stuff.

Well, there’s an Elizabeth Line depot and sidings for starters, that you seem to have built a 4 platform station on top of. Then some of North Pole depot. And the Gateway trading estate, the Brunel Rd /Telford way retail units, and parts of the Euroterminal. And some stiff gradients (to put it mildly) which would prohibit freight - how would it get from the GWML to the NLL, or from Kew to the NLL?

 

[AlastairFraser]

Well, there’s an Elizabeth Line depot and sidings for starters, that you seem to have built a 4 platform station on top of. Then some of North Pole depot. And the Gateway trading estate, the Brunel Rd /Telford way retail units, and parts of the Euroterminal. And some stiff gradients (to put it mildly) which would prohibit freight - how would it get from the GWML to the NLL, or from Kew to the NLL?

What about a shuttle bus Willesden Jcn - OOC - East Acton, free for HS2 ticketholders and £1 for others?
10 mins headway, single decker.

 

[Bald Rick]

What about a shuttle bus Willesden Jcn - OOC - East Acton, free for HS2 ticketholders and £1 for others?
10 mins headway, single decker.

Like the 266? (every 6-9 mins).

 

[AlastairFraser]

Like the 266? (every 6-9 mins).

That isn't a dedicated service though, it needs to be integrated with HS2 systems or people won't use it. They'll use Uber instead.

 

[Bald Rick]

That isn't a dedicated service though, it needs to be integrated with HS2 systems or people won't use it. They'll use Uber instead.

What does ‘integrated with HS2 systems’ mean?

 

[Basil Jet]

Well, there’s an Elizabeth Line depot and sidings for starters, that you seem to have built a 4 platform station on top of.

Can you think of a better place to put a four platform station, because I can't.

Then some of North Pole depot. And the Gateway trading estate,

Isn't the latter planned for redevelopment into housing?

the Brunel Rd /Telford way retail units,

and parts of the Euroterminal. And some stiff gradients (to put it mildly) which would prohibit freight - how would it get from the GWML to the NLL, or from Kew to the NLL?

After I drew that image (a few years ago) I realised that the existing lines would need to be kept for freight, but I didn't modify the image to show that.

(In case anyone's wondering, "Sunshine Desserts" in Reggie Perrin was actually an office in Telford Way, now demolished.)

 

[The Ham]

The website Ian Visits is reporting that TfL are looking at extensions to the Elizabeth Line services, how is this relevant to this thread I hear you ask, well here's the relevant section:

TfL looking at Elizabeth line extensions to Staines and Ebbsfleet

Ever since construction started, there's been suggestions about how and where to extend the Elizabeth line, which have only got louder once the line opened and people saw the effect it had on travel.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

The other two options are related and would piggyback on two unrelated privately funded railway projects west of London that aim to improve rail links with Heathrow Airport.

One, listed as “Heathrow to Langley” would make use of the proposed Western Rail Link, and could see Elizabeth line trains that currently run between Reading and Paddington divert to go via Heathrow.
The potential for that has already been considered an option and would be less of an extension than making use of an option to create a new loop on the railway, improving rail connections between Heathrow and the west of England.
The other idea being looked at is to make use of another proposed Heathrow railway, the Southern Rail Link, which aims to improve services to the southwest out towards Woking. In this situation, TfL is looking at running Elizabeth line trains to Staines.
Staines would be an ideal terminus for an extended Elizabeth line as there’s space to expand the station and add the extra platforms that would be necessary, and the station is itself next to a junction which feeds passengers towards Bracknell or to Windsor in the west and Waterloo in central London.

All these options are dependent on funding.
However, an agreement to run Elizabeth line trains over either or both of the proposed privately funded Heathrow railways may help their chances of being built thanks to the extra income from leasing track capacity to more trains, making either of those extensions more likely to be built. Fortunately, when Heathrow Terminal 5’s railway and tube station was being built, they included space for two more mainline train platforms, leaving space for both the Elizabeth line and mainline rail services to use the Heathrow links.

With a likely journey time of 41 minutes to Paddington (about 8 minutes slower than Waterloo), but then with direct services through to stations on the Elizabeth Line it could be quite a popular route for people travelling from Staines to go into London, even for those who would need to change trains at Staines.

 

[LUYMun]

Don’t suppose the turnaround facilities at Staines are long enough for Crossrail’s Aventras? More to the point, surely the Southern link could be more ambitious than just to Staines? As others have said, the wider catchment of Basingstoke, Farnborough, Woking and Guildford will be vital to attract more passengers to travel by train.

 

[SWT_USER]

Don’t suppose the turnaround facilities at Staines are long enough for Crossrail’s Aventras? More to the point, surely the Southern link could be more ambitious than just to Staines? As others have said, the wider catchment of Basingstoke, Farnborough, Woking and Guildford will be vital to attract more passengers to travel by train.

It would require work at Staines - but there is room to rebuild the station/ add platforms on the car park.

It would be good to finally have contactless payment from Staines. If this happens I suspect it will be up and running long before project oval comes to pass.

 

[edwin_m]

Don’t suppose the turnaround facilities at Staines are long enough for Crossrail’s Aventras? More to the point, surely the Southern link could be more ambitious than just to Staines? As others have said, the wider catchment of Basingstoke, Farnborough, Woking and Guildford will be vital to attract more passengers to travel by train.

It would require work at Staines - but there is room to rebuild the station/ add platforms on the car park.

The southern link could go further for other services, but it's unlikely TfL would want to extend the Elizabeth Line beyond some dedicated terminating platforms at Staines. Doing so would risk importing delays from the SWR network onto the Elizabeth Line.

 

[AlastairFraser]

What does ‘integrated with HS2 systems’ mean?

Integrated with the fare, not requiring separate payment for ticketholders.

 

[SWT_USER]

The southern link could go further for other services, but it's unlikely TfL would want to extend the Elizabeth Line beyond some dedicated terminating platforms at Staines. Doing so would risk importing delays from the SWR network onto the Elizabeth Line.

Yes I agree. I meant there is room to build a dedicated platform at Staines (with OHLE).

 

[cle]

The southern link could go further for other services, but it's unlikely TfL would want to extend the Elizabeth Line beyond some dedicated terminating platforms at Staines. Doing so would risk importing delays from the SWR network onto the Elizabeth Line.

I would say there would be two services possible if these works were done, including finishing the platforms at T5.

Elizabeth Line to Staines (4tph)
SWT from T5 to Waterloo (2tph?)

The western link is interesting, for all of the Surrey/Hants links mentioned. It would be the right regional thing to do, per Schiphol etc.

But having to choose one - giving direct access to Richmond, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall and Waterloo (inc East) - would be transformational. But I think these could be SWT, with a section of dual voltage - in lieu of going to 4tph on the Windsor Riverside service which was planned.

1 platform at T5 for those, 1 platform for HEx, two for Crossrail to and from Staines.

 

[Bald Rick]

Integrated with the fare, not requiring separate payment for ticketholders.

But that is bound to happen anyway, as travelcards will be available for those that need them (which will be almost everyone when it first opens).

 

[LUYMun]

But having to choose one - giving direct access to Richmond, Clapham Junction, Vauxhall and Waterloo (inc East) - would be transformational. But I think these could be SWT, with a section of dual voltage - in lieu of going to 4tph on the Windsor Riverside service which was planned.

I’m not sure residents in these areas would benefit much from this, considering that they are (bar Clapham) well connected with the London Underground which journey times are going to be just as long.

On another note, I’ve been reading through Farnborough Airport’s proposal to increase the number of flights in the future - namely in the pursuit of the business aviation sector, as flights would direct business travellers to Heathrow from Farnborough. If that’s not an argument to justify the Heathrow Southern link towards Basingstoke, so as to create modal shift among these business travellers to the railways, I don’t know what is.

 

[AlastairFraser]

But that is bound to happen anyway, as travelcards will be available for those that need them (which will be almost everyone when it first opens).

It would be a small subsidy to make connections to other parts of London easier though, in recognition of the fact OOC is in the middle of nowhere.

Yes I agree. I meant there is room to build a dedicated platform at Staines (with OHLE).

There is room for a single platform and extra track on the east side of the Windsor line, further up before the Windsor line junction with the Reading line, but you'd have to modify the signalling and third rail to be able to 1) handle the crossover moves from bay platform - Windsor lines - junction off Windsor line towards Heathrow T5 (somewhere near the M25 overbridge on Staines Moor likely) and 2) resolve the incompatibility issues with some forms of 3rd rail and OHLE.
Considering all that, it's still a good idea for Phase 1 of a Heathrow southern link, it would be even better with a Stanwell Moor Parkway station that I suggested on this thread before.

 

[The Ham]

I’m not sure residents in these areas would benefit much from this, considering that they are (bar Clapham) well connected with the London Underground which journey times are going to be just as long.

On another note, I’ve been reading through Farnborough Airport’s proposal to increase the number of flights in the future - namely in the pursuit of the business aviation sector, as flights would direct business travellers to Heathrow from Farnborough. If that’s not an argument to justify the Heathrow Southern link towards Basingstoke, so as to create modal shift among these business travellers to the railways, I don’t know what is.

I'm not convinced that there would be much travel between Heathrow and Farnborough, as they typically focus on different markets.

Even if someone were to fly "locally" to/from Farnborough in their private/charter jet it's unlikely that they would then jump on a train to get to Heathrow to then do an international flight.

 

[Bald Rick]

It would be a small subsidy to make connections to other parts of London easier though, in recognition of the fact OOC is in the middle of nowhere.

Sorry I don‘t understand your point.

There is already a bus service that does exactly what you proposed, but more frequently. Even if there were no other changes to bus routes (in my view bus improvements are very likely) this already does what you propose. The purpose of your proposal was, i assume, to enable HS2 passengers to get to the Overground or Bakerloo at Willesden Jn or Central Line at North Acton for onward connections to other parts of London. To do that they will need to buy a ’ticket’. Therefore buying that ticket in the form of a travelcard add on to their HS2 ticket means they could use the existing, more frequent bus anyway.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Sorry I don‘t understand your point.

There is already a bus service that does exactly what you proposed, but more frequently. Even if there were no other changes to bus routes (in my view bus improvements are very likely) this already does what you propose. The purpose of your proposal was, i assume, to enable HS2 passengers to get to the Overground or Bakerloo at Willesden Jn or Central Line at North Acton for onward connections to other parts of London. To do that they will need to buy a ’ticket’. Therefore buying that ticket in the form of a travelcard add on to their HS2 ticket means they could use the existing, more frequent bus anyway.

Of course they could buy a wider travel card, but a free transfer to an established railway station will help distribute passengers away from the EL/GWR towards central London, which will soon become overcrowded, and you could also use the opportunity to integrate at least Willesden Jcn into a station group with OOC for onward travel fares and itineraries.

 

[JonathanH]

Of course they could buy a wider travel card, but a free transfer to an established railway station will help distribute passengers away from the EL/GWR towards central London, which will soon become overcrowded, and you could also use the opportunity to integrate at least Willesden Jcn into a station group with OOC for onward travel fares and itineraries.

The economic case for infrastructure changes which save people money is often awkward to make.