Heathrow Express use continuing to decline

[CharlieSpotted]

It seems that any transport services operated by airport are expensive. There have Luton DART cable rail to link station and airport, a one-way adult ticket cost £4.90 for a 2,080 m journey!

* Birmingham Airport Air-Rail Link enters the chat ... *

Yes, I know, it's not really comparable but...

 

[Ian79]

Even before the Elizabeth Line, the Heathrow Express was only a marginal gain in terms of time over slowly bouncing along all the way through West London on the Piccadilly Line, if you wanted to go anywhere in Central London other than Paddington.
The time of up to 15 minutes waiting for the HEx to depart, walking across Paddington to getting on the tube (and then being on one of the two slowest lines) could easily use up any gains getting from Heathrow to Zone 1 faster for about five times the cost.

 

[jfollows]

It seems that any transport services operated by airport are expensive. There have Luton DART cable rail to link station and airport, a one-way adult ticket cost £4.90 for a 2,080 m journey!

Recent discussion at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/airport-public-transport-tax.259980/

 

[12LDA28C]

From a quick look at walk up prices, the HEX is £25 one way, EL to zone 1 is £12.80, Piccadilly line is £5.50.

Obviously the HEX ends at Paddington so a passenger would need to add a zone 1 tube fare of £2.80 to get elsewhere in zone 1.

If you can get an advance for £10 as the website promises HEX starts to look more competitive.

£9.75 open return with your Priv discount. A worthwhile investment given the time saving and comfort over the alternatives.

 

[jon0844]

Yes, but from where? Paddington is in a relatively remote location and if you’re going to change to tube or Elizabeth line there, it’s not a lot different from using them throughout.

Ignoring the cost difference, I can see why someone might use HEX to Paddington, then transfer to the Elizabeth Line (which is a pretty easy interchange) to save a bit of time. I doubt it's worthwhile in the other direction unless you time it right, as if you miss a train then your time saving is eaten up on the platform.

I have no idea if people do this, as you are going to pay significantly more for a relatively small gain, but as stated above, the service has a number of reasons to run and it will continue to run because any major airport is expected to have an express rail service - and there are people who would pay whatever it cost. The question is, are there enough of these people?

 

[plugwash]

Yes, but from where?

Doing some quick research it looks like

* The Picadilly line takes 41 minuites from south kensington to heathrow terminals 2 and 3
* The Lizzie takes around 31 minuites from paddingto to heathrow terminals 2 and 3
* Heathrow express takes about 17 minuites from paddingto to heathrow terminals 2 and 3

*IF* your origin can reach heathrow in fewer changes by using the Lizzie then that is likely to compensate for the slower train, but having looked at the maps, my feeling is that probably applies to less than half of potential origins.

Out of the 11 major tube lines

* 4 go to paddington.(Circle, District, H&C bakerloo)
* 4 have one or more interchanges with the lizzie in central London but do not go to paddington (Central, Jubilee, Metropolitan, Northern)
* 2 have no interchange with the lizzie at all
* 1 only meets the lizzie at heathrow (Picadilly)

If we look at London terminals.

* 1 has heathrow express service (paddington)
* 2 are on the lizzie (liverpool street/moorgate)
* 3 are not on the lizzie but have direct tube services to paddington (Marlybone, Euston, St pancras, Kings Cross, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Waterloo, Victoria)
* 1 requires a change to reach paddington, but can reach the lizzie with one tube or thameslink hop (London bridge)

So I would argue that for *most* origins Heathrow express is still the fastest rail option, whether it's worth the extra cost is another matter.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

£9.75 open return with your Priv discount. A worthwhile investment given the time saving and comfort over the alternatives.

Unfair comparison? With respect, most tourists flying in from the U.S., aren't likely to be eligible for Priv discount.

 

[Mojo]

*IF* your origin can reach heathrow in fewer changes by using the Lizzie then that is likely to compensate for the slower train, but for most of the country, the number of interchanges needed is the same regardless of use of the Lizzie or not.

I worked out a few years ago, prior to opening of Elizabeth line, that from T123 it was quicker to go as far East on a direct train as Hyde Park Corner before the Heathrow Express became faster.

 

[Mikey C]

Ignoring the cost difference, I can see why someone might use HEX to Paddington, then transfer to the Elizabeth Line (which is a pretty easy interchange) to save a bit of time. I doubt it's worthwhile in the other direction unless you time it right, as if you miss a train then your time saving is eaten up on the platform.

I have no idea if people do this, as you are going to pay significantly more for a relatively small gain, but as stated above, the service has a number of reasons to run and it will continue to run because any major airport is expected to have an express rail service - and there are people who would pay whatever it cost. The question is, are there enough of these people?

I can't see anyone doing this, as you'd have all the hassle of the long walk between the NR concourse at Paddington and the EL platforms.

Unless they are literally going to the Paddington area, I imagine most people continue by taxi.

 

[12LDA28C]

Unfair comparison? With respect, most tourists flying in from the U.S., aren't likely to be eligible for Priv discount.

Nowhere did I suggest that anyone other than rail staff would be eligible for a Priv discount. For staff though, the discount makes HEx competitive. Would I pay almost 40 quid as a normal passenger? No.

 

[Mikey C]

Don't forget that Heathrow Airport Ltd (or BAA as it was then) invested a significant amount of money in at least the infrastructure within the airport boundary (tunnels, stations etc). HEX fares income will provide a return on that investment.

They invested in that to keep the airport competitive with other international and London airports, and enable expansion of passenger numbers. And perhaps more importantly to get planning permission to keep expanding the airport, as to meet emissions rules, they need to encourage public transport use to access the airport.

Ultimately, getting lots of passengers into Heathrow so they can spend money there and (indirectly) pay fat landing fees is more important for Heathrow than the prestige of financial returns from HEx.

 

[Alex C.]

I used to get the EL coming from Waterloo but after two trips in a row being turfed out at stations before Heathrow because the service was terminated short I usually use the express now, particularly as I’m pretty much guaranteed a comfortable journey.

 

[merry]

*IF* your origin can reach heathrow in fewer changes by using the Lizzie then that is likely to compensate for the slower train, but for most of the country, the number of interchanges needed is the same regardless of use of the Lizzie or not.

Example: Come into London at KGX. 5 min change to Picc, 1h03(ish) to T2/3, total1h08.
Lizzie needs transfer to Farringdon or Tottenham Court Rd plus transfer there, say 15 mins, and 36-40 mins on lizzie. Total 51-55 mins.
HEx needs transfer to Paddington on H&C tube, 5mins in plus 15 mins on tube, 5 min change plus avg 7 min wait (1-15 min range), plus 17 mins, and a looooong walk to T2. Total 49 mins plus that last walk.
People might dispute the exact timings, but give or take they are true for EUS or KGX. So yes, HEx saves typically 19 mins over Picc, and 2 to 6 mins over Lizzie, but given the prices it is hard to justify HEx. Even Lizzie isn't that much benefit.

 

[43066]

£9.75 open return with your Priv discount. A worthwhile investment given the time saving and comfort over the alternatives.

I’m the sort of oddball who actually quite likes bouncing along on “heritage” tube stock, so I’d generally use the Pic , but point taken.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So yes, HEx saves typically 19 mins over Picc, and 2 to 6 mins over Lizzie, but given the prices it is hard to justify HEx.

HEx is an air conditioned train with a toilet, proper seating, and plenty pf luggage space.

The Piccadilly Line, on the other hand, is a rattly old train with longitudinal seating. In winter it's freezing cold and in summer it's like a sweatbox. I'd rather pay the extra and spend that hour in comfort, even if it is not any quicker overall. The new trains will bring air con but will otherwise still be cramped and uncomfortable seating.

EL is somewhere between the two. If you can get the bay seating its a lovely journey. If you're wedged in a longitudinal seat by the doors, less so.

I always used to choose HEx over the Piccadilly Line. After hours on a plane I don't want to be cramped up in some rattly old train. EL has shifted the dial. HEx is worth £25 to avoid the Piccadilly Line. I don't think HEx is worth £25 to avoid the EL. I'd pay a tenner supplement on the Z1-6 contactless cap to use HEx, but probably not more than that.

 

[side effect]

Me and my son was out oneday with travel cards oneday and he wanted to go on the Heathrow express but they wanted something like £20 and with TCS that would already get us there there was no way I was paying extra. Is it still expensive.

 

[Horizon22]

It's still the quickest and most convenient way to get to Heathrow by train, albeit not the cheapest.

Surely that is dependent on from where you are coming? It can’t be more convenient surely lugging a suitcase onto a taxi or down to the Elizabeth line versus a direct train if you are heading to central London and a short walk to your hotel?

 

[12LDA28C]

Me and my son was out oneday with travel cards oneday and he wanted to go on the Heathrow express but they wanted something like £20 and with TCS that would already get us there there was no way I was paying extra. Is it still expensive.

Compared to the other rail alternatives yes it's expensive.

 

[John R]

The elephant in the room there is that HAL (Heathrow Airport), not Network Rail, own the track past Airport Junction. So that gives Heathrow Express a strong negotiating position. I can see Elizabeth Line fares having to go up drastically as their negotiating position if HEX is no longer allowed to carry its fresh air and occasional tourist into the airport.

There's the Competition and Markets Authority to deal with a monopoly provider, as well as other regulatory bodies. HAL has already had to concede once on access charges for the Elizabeth Line, and I can imagine any attempt to increase rates unduly would result in a similar review.

 

[Djgr]

Doing some quick research it looks like

* The Picadilly line takes 41 minuites from south kensington to heathrow terminals 2 and 3
* The Lizzie takes around 31 minuites from paddingto to heathrow terminals 2 and 3
* Heathrow express takes about 17 minuites from paddingto to heathrow terminals 2 and 3

*IF* your origin can reach heathrow in fewer changes by using the Lizzie then that is likely to compensate for the slower train, but having looked at the maps, my feeling is that probably applies to less than half of potential origins.

Out of the 11 major tube lines

* 4 go to paddington.(Circle, District, H&C bakerloo)
* 4 have one or more interchanges with the lizzie in central London but do not go to paddington (Central, Jubilee, Metropolitan, Northern)
* 2 have no interchange with the lizzie at all
* 1 only meets the lizzie at heathrow (Picadilly)

If we look at London terminals.

* 1 has heathrow express service (paddington)
* 2 are on the lizzie (liverpool street/moorgate)
* 3 are not on the lizzie but have direct tube services to paddington (Marlybone, Euston, St pancras, Kings Cross, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Waterloo, Victoria)
* 1 requires a change to reach paddington, but can reach the lizzie with one tube or thameslink hop (London bridge)

So I would argue that for *most* origins Heathrow express is still the fastest rail option, whether it's worth the extra cost is another matter.

Most origins are not London terminal railway stations.

 

[43066]

Most origins are not London terminal railway stations.

They will be for a very significant number of travellers, surely? Basically anyone travelling to the airport by train who doesn’t happen to live near a tube or Lizzie line station.

 

[duffield]

* Birmingham Airport Air-Rail Link enters the chat ... *

Yes, I know, it's not really comparable but...

I'm sure the Birmingham maglev was free when I used it in 1991!

 

[Discuss223]

£9.75 open return with your Priv discount. A worthwhile investment given the time saving and comfort over the alternatives.

PRIVs aren't purchasable, it's short for Staff Privilege discounted travel. Perhaps you meant Railcard discount? These are offered to Students, Young Adults, Disabled, Elderly and (for some strange reason) 26-30 year olds, as well as Two Together if you have a travel companion.

But I think the issue here isn't cost, it's the introduction of Crossrail that is stifling footfall on Heathrow Express. Crossrail has the frequency that a National Rail service could ever offer. Looking at the current timetable, Crossrail departures towards Heathrow have a frequency of every 4-8 minutes at Peak times!

 

[jfollows]

Eh? Paddington is in Central London, on the same street next door is Saint Mary's Hospital and close by is Paddington Basin, full of city offices, bars and apartments. Where do you suppose people would change at Paddington and travel onwards to?

Not in my book is it in Central London, although it’s more cosmopolitain than it used to be - it used to be close to sex shops on Praed Street and walking distance to Hyde Park and Marylebone High Street. I admit that the stuff to its west have changed it for the better.
Euston-Waterloo-Victoria are central, I’ve walked between them during tube strikes, no problem, Bloomsbury and other places en route. Paddington is a hike.

 

[JN114]

Looking at the current timetable, Crossrail departures towards Heathrow have a frequency of every 4-8 minutes at Peak times!

What timetable are you looking at?! Crossrail is 6 trains per hour to Heathrow, consistently throughout the day; there is no difference between the peak and off peak service to Heathrow as the tunnel infrastructure can only cope with the current service level.

The Heathrow T4 service runs every 15 minutes

The Heathrow T5 service runs every 30 minutes, approximately 3 minutes ahead of 2 of the 4 Terminal 4 trains.

Let’s not get carried away with over exaggerations here, come on…

 

[duffield]

PRIVs aren't purchasable, it's short for Staff Privilege discounted travel. Perhaps you meant Railcard discount? These are offered to Students, Young Adults, Disabled, Elderly and (for some strange reason) 26-30 year olds, as well as Two Together if you have a travel companion.

But I think the issue here isn't cost, it's the introduction of Crossrail that is stifling footfall on Heathrow Express. Crossrail has the frequency that a National Rail service could ever offer. Looking at the current timetable, Crossrail departures towards Heathrow have a frequency of every 4-8 minutes at Peak times!

"PRIVs aren't purchasable, it's short for Staff Privilege discounted travel"

I don't get this. "Privs" are purchasable; for those with the appropriate type of staff leisure travel card, £9.75 is the price of the £39 anytime return after applying the standard 75% staff discount. Only relevant if you don't have a suitable status pass and are not using a dated box, of course.
Unless you meant "not purchasable by the general public", but that's not clear.

 

[43066]

PRIVs aren't purchasable

The railcard itself isn’t. Priv tickets absolutely are, though, and I purchase them on a regular basis!

To clarify, I’m a Priv-entitled railway staff member, as is @12LDA28C, and he was addressing me directly in that post.

Not in my book is it in Central London

Agreed.

 

[Discuss223]

What timetable are you looking at?! Crossrail is 6 trains per hour to Heathrow, consistently throughout the day; there is no difference between the peak and off peak service to Heathrow as the tunnel infrastructure can only cope with the current service level.

The Heathrow T4 service runs every 15 minutes

The Heathrow T5 service runs every 30 minutes, approximately 3 minutes ahead of 2 of the 4 Terminal 4 trains.

Let’s not get carried away with over exaggerations here, come on…

Ah yes, I see now, some of the departures I was looking at only go as far as Paddington. Egg on face!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Dec 2024 ==

I don't get this. "Privs" are purchasable; for those with the appropriate type of staff leisure travel card, £9.75 is the price of the £39 anytime return after applying the standard 75% staff discount.
Unless you meant "not purchasable by the general public", but that's not clear.

It seems the poster quoted was referring to a Railcard, I believe they meant the investment in a Railcard, not PRIV, as PRIV entitlement cannot be bought. Hope that clarifies.

 

[43066]

It seems the poster quoted was referring to a Railcard, I believe they meant the investment in a Railcard, not PRIV, as PRIV entitlement cannot be bought. Hope that clarifies.

Nope. He said the ticket itself was a worthy investment, when bought with a priv discount.

 

[Requeststop]

I use Heathrow Express twice a year during my return for my annual holiday back home in Cornwall.
On the return to get to Paddington to connect to St Erth, rather than the bus to Reading and then fighting for a seat and luggage space on an already very full train. This would be after a very long journey of 6.5 hours from Port Moresby to Singapore and then a 14 hour flight onwards to Heathrow plus the check in and transfer times.
Coming back this way, I use HEX to get Heathrow ASAP to check in and get rid of my luggage and check in. It's comfortable and it's fast. 15mins to T2/3 21 mins to get to T5.
I get 30% off my fare using my senior card, buying the return ticket in advance on-line.
One thing puzzles me. Why is there first class? There seems to be nothing extra except for some extra space for a journey of maximum time of just over 20 minutes?
Would I use The Elizabeth line? No. Transfer through Paddington with luggage would be a nightmare and basically, the same goes for the Underground plus having to change from the Piccadilly line to the District line.

To me it's the best option.