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GWR short train lengths

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irish_rail

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Perhaps, but the DfT does not determine how GWR utilises it's fleet on a day to day basis, and yesterday's shambles was IMHO a clear example of poor planning and total lack of concern for passengers.
Yes, but forced on the controllers by having to juggle a poorly planned fleet that was constructed at a time when everything was going to be 5 cars splitting and joining all day long. Now (thankfully) that isn't the case, the controllers have way too many 5 car sets and not nearly enough 9s to play with. As I've said before , in my opinion LNER should swap a few 9s for some GWR 5s, or better still some new build carriages to lengthen some 5 car sets up to 9 car for GWR.
 
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Clarence Yard

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Well, I’ve explained up thread the reasons why that is not going to happen - the ECML is by far more important route (in terms of revenue, passenger numbers and yield per passenger) than the GWR network. Just look at those comparisons I posted. Since COVID, demand has also come back far more strongly on the ECML than it has on GWR.

I’ve also explained on another thread why the 1103 went load 5 on the day in question - nothing to do with Glastonbury and everything to do with the general lack of units. I also explained why the controller had little option other than to do what he did, unless he wanted to short form the 1700 out of Pad - not a good move.

As to ordering new cars for the 80x fleet, the financial situation for the industry is pointing towards us having to make do with what we have got for the foreseeable future.
 

irish_rail

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Well, I’ve explained up thread the reasons why that is not going to happen - the ECML is by far more important route (in terms of revenue, passenger numbers and yield per passenger) than the GWR network. Just look at those comparisons I posted. Since COVID, demand has also come back far more strongly on the ECML than it has on GWR.

I’ve also explained on another thread why the 1103 went load 5 on the day in question - nothing to do with Glastonbury and everything to do with the general lack of units. I also explained why the controller had little option other than to do what he did, unless he wanted to short form the 1700 out of Pad - not a good move.

As to ordering new cars for the 80x fleet, the financial situation for the industry is pointing towards us having to make do with what we have got for the foreseeable future.
But I would dispute why shortforming the 1700 off Paddington is worse than shortforming the 1103 off Paddington? Surely most people on the 1700 are only going to Reading , Didcot and Swindon and are commuters with little or no luggage? Whereas 1103 is the opposite, most people going at least as far as Exeter, have lots of luggage and are more likely to be elderly and infirm. The 1700 passengers could get the 1703 to Reading or wait 15 mins or so for the next Didcot or Swindon, or at worst half an hour for the next Bristol. Whereas those that couldn't board the 1103 (there were some) were forced to wait for the already oversubscribed 1203 an hour later. I completely understand controllers have to make the best of a bad situation and play with what they have, but I'd argue in this case, the wrong call MAY have been made.
 

geoffk

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Extra trains for Glastonbury had to be found from somewhere (although this thread suggests short-forming is not a recent event). Devon is also suffering from short-formed 150s (one unit instead of two) on the Paignton - Exmouth service, which is related to a shortage of Turbos, also a 150 away at Wolverton for months. Awaiting spare parts is said to be a major factor - can anyone confirm this? (Edit - six of the seven diagrams on Paignton - Exmouth this morning are single 150s, with just one 166 - this could change during the day).
 
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Clarence Yard

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But I would dispute why shortforming the 1700 off Paddington is worse than shortforming the 1103 off Paddington? Surely most people on the 1700 are only going to Reading , Didcot and Swindon and are commuters with little or no luggage? Whereas 1103 is the opposite, most people going at least as far as Exeter, have lots of luggage and are more likely to be elderly and infirm. The 1700 passengers could get the 1703 to Reading or wait 15 mins or so for the next Didcot or Swindon, or at worst half an hour for the next Bristol. Whereas those that couldn't board the 1103 (there were some) were forced to wait for the already oversubscribed 1203 an hour later. I completely understand controllers have to make the best of a bad situation and play with what they have, but I'd argue in this case, the wrong call MAY have been made.

No, the right call was made. You are making the mistake of thinking commuters only go to London. Reading and, to a certain extent, Swindon have substantial commuter flows from the west so trains like the 1700 are important to keep as long trains. There is a lot of revenue attached to those services, far more than the 1103.

Trains to the West Country suffer from one issue - if you send a unit down there, it takes a long while to get it back. So if you are short and you need a long unit for the evening peak, you have to be careful what you send out on what service, otherwise you stuff yourself up for later.

If Hitachi had been able to supply the number of units they should have provided, then this issue would never have arisen.

To respond to another poster, spares for traction (particularly repairables) are in shorter supply than hitherto. The 16x fleet has been badly affected but the 15x fleet (all operators) isn’t brilliant either. Shades of the mid to late 1970’s, I’m afraid, when BR (and the NBC, for buses) was badly affected by periodic spares shortages.
 

irish_rail

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No, the right call was made. You are making the mistake of thinking commuters only go to London. Reading and, to a certain extent, Swindon have substantial commuter flows from the west so trains like the 1700 are important to keep as long trains. There is a lot of revenue attached to those services, far more than the 1103.

Trains to the West Country suffer from one issue - if you send a unit down there, it takes a long while to get it back. So if you are short and you need a long unit for the evening peak, you have to be careful what you send out on what service, otherwise you stuff yourself up for later.

If Hitachi had been able to supply the number of units they should have provided, then this issue would never have arisen.

To respond to another poster, spares for traction (particularly repairables) are in shorter supply than hitherto. The 16x fleet has been badly affected but the 15x fleet (all operators) isn’t brilliant either. Shades of the mid to late 1970’s, I’m afraid, when BR (and the NBC, for buses) was badly affected by periodic spares shortages.
Its a shame that the emphasis has to be on what generates the most money (in terms of the 1700 over the 1103), or LNER taking priority of GWR, but its a symptom of the world we live in I suppose. I would argue the NEED is greater for the 1103 to be full length, but accept your point that it perhaps generates less income, you are in a position to know that , I am not.

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Notice the 1315 Plymouth to padd showing as 5 today. This kind of thing just wasn't happening , certainly not regularly on the WofE route before the May timetable change. Is this all related to engine issues? Or is the fleet more stretched due to the Castle replacement. It really isn't good.
 
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cactustwirly

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Well, I’ve explained up thread the reasons why that is not going to happen - the ECML is by far more important route (in terms of revenue, passenger numbers and yield per passenger) than the GWR network. Just look at those comparisons I posted. Since COVID, demand has also come back far more strongly on the ECML than it has on GWR.

I’ve also explained on another thread why the 1103 went load 5 on the day in question - nothing to do with Glastonbury and everything to do with the general lack of units. I also explained why the controller had little option other than to do what he did, unless he wanted to short form the 1700 out of Pad - not a good move.

As to ordering new cars for the 80x fleet, the financial situation for the industry is pointing towards us having to make do with what we have got for the foreseeable future.
How does the GWML compare to the MML in terms of revenue and yields?
 

nw1

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To add to an old but still relevant discussion: Today, Monday 26th June, GWR cancelled the 1118 Paddington -Cardiff (which appears to have been a pre-planned change, perhaps to release stock/crews for the Glastonbury exodus?); And then provided a 5-car for the next train to Wales, 1148 Paddington -Carmarthen. Resulting in gross overcrowding, passengers standing throughout the train, and people (including the elderly) finding their reserved seats already occupied. And of course no at seat catering either.

A complete and utter disgrace.

As a point of comparison I wonder how BR would have dealt with it in the 80s and early 90s?

Would they have cancelled a regular timetabled HST to provide additional stock for a Glastonbury relief, or used spare stock for the Glastonbury relief?

One would suspect the latter.
 

irish_rail

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As a point of comparison I wonder how BR would have dealt with it in the 80s and early 90s?

Would they have cancelled a regular timetabled HST to provide additional stock for a Glastonbury relief, or used spare stock for the Glastonbury relief?

One would suspect the latter.
Indeed, BR did have plenty of mk1 and mk2s that were dusted off when needed. Similarly stuff was moved round the country more, where it was actually needed. All be too expensive nowadays because of the proliferation of MUs as opposed to basic carriages.
 

mikeb42

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10 out of 29 services from London to Bristol Parkway today are feeble half-excuses for a train - including departures at 1618, 1818 and 1848. Similarly the 1801 and 1830 to Temple Meads.

OK, the source for this is realtimetrains and the controllers may adjust some of this before it actually happens. However this tallies with what has been happening on the ground for some time.

Upon making enquiries recently we were told that there are now Bristol and beyond services we regularly use which since the timetable change in May are deliberately permanently scheduled for trains with 3.5 coaches of standard. It's one thing to tolerate crowding at peak times but since May I'm struggling to justify continuing to pay a small fortune to be repeatedly wedged in a vestibule late in the day when the roads are clear, as fast point-to-point for the same journey and therefore a much more civilised alternative. A lamentable outcome given the deluge of money the GW route has had lavished on it in recent years.
 

Snow1964

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The latest ORR figures give lot of detail, but only at macro GWR level, not split by local trains, regional, West Country, commuter etc.

Per table 4.1 ran 10.5m passenger Km Jan-March (4th highest behind GTR, Northern, Scotrail) which is 96% of 2019 (pre covid)

Table 5.1 shows 69.5m vehicle Km Jan-Mar, 93% of 2019 (second biggest, behind GTR)

Simple maths shows trains average 6.62 vehicles (69.5/10.5) , whereas in 2019 was 6.83 vehicles, so basically on average trains are shorter.

Table 2.2 has the passenger Km, which are 88% of pre-covid Jan-Mar 2019, but journeys are 15% longer.


Comparing the fleet with same period in 2019, it is basically same, except lost some Castle HSTs, a few 143s were replaced almost one for one by some 150s. Slight reduction in 158 fleet due to accident, and number of 387s has changed. Clearly the 5car and 9car IETs haven't been shortened as units, so the average 0.21 vehicles per train reduction has to be running higher proportion of shorter trains.

As 2nd biggest train operator (by vehicle Km in table 5.1) it is worrying that unable to secure extra stock, and it's trains have got smaller.
 

Master29

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It was said at the time by many on this forum (not necessarily attached to the rail industry in general) that the DaFT got it wrong with the idea of all Plymouth splits. Some are fine. the 0500 and 0710 from Penzance to Paddington are good examples but the idea was that the 9 car would never get to Penzance. At the time many including myself could see this was a bad idea but of course what do we know. I know it has been done to death but this isn't hindsight here. The W of E has always been a poor relation. I don't disagree with the excellent information Clarenceyard provides, on the contrary, he is always on the ball, which just goes to prove the point.
 

Xavi

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To state the obvious, total LNER (inter city) revenue and yield per passenger will be higher than GWR (regional, commuter, inter city). However, on an individual train basis a packed WoE train must generate similar revenue; London to Exeter booked 2 weeks ahead is typically double the price of London to Doncaster.
 

irish_rail

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To state the obvious, total LNER (inter city) revenue and yield per passenger will be higher than GWR (regional, commuter, inter city). However, on an individual train basis a packed WoE train must generate similar revenue; London to Exeter booked 2 weeks ahead is typically double the price of London to Doncaster.
Thats a good point. GwR statistics are weighted by all the commuter and regional stuff. GwR intercity vs LNER would be a better comparison.
 

Master29

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To state the obvious, total LNER (inter city) revenue and yield per passenger will be higher than GWR (regional, commuter, inter city). However, on an individual train basis a packed WoE train must generate similar revenue; London to Exeter booked 2 weeks ahead is typically double the price of London to Doncaster

Thats a good point. GwR statistics are weighted by all the commuter and regional stuff. GwR intercity vs LNER would be a better comparison.
These points exactly. We all know the differences in traffic between the respective regions. There is little comparison.
 

Railperf

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These points exactly. We all know the differences in traffic between the respective regions. There is little comparison.
From a leisure travel point of view, I find LNER prices more competitive - which affects my choice of destination by rail. It feels like DfT/GWR are trying to price us off the railway and back onto increasingly clogged roads.
 

Master29

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From a leisure travel point of view, I find LNER prices more competitive - which affects my choice of destination by rail. It feels like DfT/GWR are trying to price us off the railway and back onto increasingly clogged roads.
Definitely. Like I said the West of England has always been the problem child to the DfT. The roads to the West are pretty horrendous too....but I digress.
 

irish_rail

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Definitely. Like I said the West of England has always been the problem child to the DfT. The roads to the West are pretty horrendous too....but I digress.
Agreed. The only real comparison for the WofE route in terms of journey length and average journey duration is the Anglo Scottish stuff run by LNER and Avanti. I don't suppose those routes would tolerate frequent shortforms. What is so frustrating is, is that it was rare before May during the daytime on the busier trains for a 5 vice 9 or 10. Yet all I can see is that it will get considerably worse as Castle sets get retired and further stress is placed on the IET fleet. Whats needed is the WofE route to become 9 car only, to avoid the temptation of shortforming and leave the shortforms to the short hops, even if that is less profitable.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Agreed. The only real comparison for the WofE route in terms of journey length and average journey duration is the Anglo Scottish stuff run by LNER and Avanti. I don't suppose those routes would tolerate frequent shortforms. What is so frustrating is, is that it was rare before May during the daytime on the busier trains for a 5 vice 9 or 10. Yet all I can see is that it will get considerably worse as Castle sets get retired and further stress is placed on the IET fleet. Whats needed is the WofE route to become 9 car only, to avoid the temptation of shortforming and leave the shortforms to the short hops, even if that is less profitable.

I’m not sure how you make the route 9 car only with? As long as there are still 5 cars on the GWR Network they will still at times of disruption head down that way.
 

irish_rail

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I’m not sure how you make the route 9 car only with? As long as there are still 5 cars on the GWR Network they will still at times of disruption head down that way.
Indeed, its not a realistic aspiration, I accept. Its just hard , looking enviously at LNER and Avanti with their mix of 9 and 11 coach trains when on GWR we seem to get the raw end of the deal in terms of carriage provision.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Just be careful what you wish for, as one way to theoretically make the Plymouth route more efficiently 9-car would be to sever the daytime through workings to/from Cornwall, exactly as BR did in the mid-1980s to release HSTs to the MML. If I recall there were some very clapped out 50+Mk1 sets running connecting services until they were replaced by 155s which didn’t exactly enamour themselves. Maybe the equivalent today would be going back to a 15x railway.
 

Bluejays

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9 car out today, running diagrams between Plymouth and Penzance, Penzance and Gloucester, and Gloucester to temple meads. If there is a reason for this I don't understand it, you'd think that 9 car would be a lot more useful elsewhere
 

father_jack

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9 car out today, running diagrams between Plymouth and Penzance, Penzance and Gloucester, and Gloucester to temple meads. If there is a reason for this I don't understand it, you'd think that 9 car would be a lot more useful elsewhere
5 cars in the wrong place and like @Clarence Yard has said before swapping back into the booked size train in mid diagram doesn't work any more.
 

Snow1964

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I’m not sure how you make the route 9 car only with? As long as there are still 5 cars on the GWR Network they will still at times of disruption head down that way.
Of course the original plan when ordered was that single 5car sets wouldn't happen on the constrained lines into Paddington, so wouldn't get one accidentally starting from there.

But the joining / dividing further out took too long, and now short 5car units end up on inappropriate services.

To be fair to GWR fleet allocators, they do good job with what they have, just that historically have completely wrong mix of trains (and not enough in total)
 

Anonymous10

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No, the right call was made. You are making the mistake of thinking commuters only go to London. Reading and, to a certain extent, Swindon have substantial commuter flows from the west so trains like the 1700 are important to keep as long trains. There is a lot of revenue attached to those services, far more than the 1103.

Trains to the West Country suffer from one issue - if you send a unit down there, it takes a long while to get it back. So if you are short and you need a long unit for the evening peak, you have to be careful what you send out on what service, otherwise you stuff yourself up for later.

If Hitachi had been able to supply the number of units they should have provided, then this issue would never have arisen.

To respond to another poster, spares for traction (particularly repairables) are in shorter supply than hitherto. The 16x fleet has been badly affected but the 15x fleet (all operators) isn’t brilliant either. Shades of the mid to late 1970’s, I’m afraid, when BR (and the NBC, for buses) was badly affected by periodic spares shortages.
Same reason as the Swansea or Carmarthen services or even the summer Saturday to Pembroke dock are short formed to 5 vice 10. If the unit is needed for rush hour it'll be kept back.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Its a shame that the emphasis has to be on what generates the most money (in terms of the 1700 over the 1103), or LNER taking priority of GWR, but its a symptom of the world we live in I suppose. I would argue the NEED is greater for the 1103 to be full length, but accept your point that it perhaps generates less income, you are in a position to know that , I am not.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Notice the 1315 Plymouth to padd showing as 5 today. This kind of thing just wasn't happening , certainly not regularly on the WofE route before the May timetable change. Is this all related to engine issues? Or is the fleet more stretched due to the Castle replacement. It really isn't good.
Also won't help the Carmarthen service is now every two hours which must be taking an extra few units.
 

Clarence Yard

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It does work when the units are available in the right place to do it! That’s what the GWR controllers are looking for and in each timetable there are some sweet spots at certain locations at certain times of the day that enable you to do it.

But if you haven’t had enough units out the depots in the first place (and sometimes getting the wrong amount in the night before is a reason for this) then you are going to struggle to swap more than you usually do.
 

class ep-09

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Incredibly first train from Hereford (5.23) to London was 5 cars ( booked 9 ) 2 days in the row this week , leaving passengers on the platforms before Oxford .

Next train behind (6.43 Worcester to Paddington ) is also also full and standing being also 5 cars today (booked 9 ) , could not collect the people left by the previous train .

Shocking .
 

387131

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It's a complicated balancing act for GWR controllers at the moment as Carmarthen and some Penzance services have to be 10 / 5 cars making swaps at Paddington much more difficult.

Also keeping 800's coupling to 800's and 802's to 802's, as they are still not permitted to couple.
 

GWVillager

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Whats needed is the WofE route to become 9 car only, to avoid the temptation of shortforming and leave the shortforms to the short hops, even if that is less profitable.
What’s needed is all the Intercity routes to become 9 car only, with the possible exception of the Cotswolds Line, but as @class ep-09 points out, even this could do with the longer trains.

In the ideal world, all the 800/0s would be lengthened to 9 cars, with the 802/0s replacing the Castle HSTs and remaining 5 car. This would probably solve most of GWR’s short forms on Intercity routes, but as has been said many times here, there’s just no way they’d get the funding for that.
 
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