GWR short train lengths

[HamworthyGoods]

Why would they be totally useless? GWR runs electric only 387s between London Paddington and Bristol Parkway. Assuming no OHL faults, electric only trains could run further to Cardiff Central. Indeed I believe 387s have run that far before.

Yes, diagrams may need to be altered. As obviously at the moment, the bi-modes run in ICE mode to operate services that are not on electrified lines.

Electric services can run solely between London and Cardiff yes, however if you look at the GWR timetable you will see that is only an off-peak service group, in the peaks 2tph run through to Swansea (in a similar way to how the West of England semi-fasts step up from bi-hourly to hourly in the peaks).

Thus there are no single 800 diagrams which could be replaced by an electric 801 as in the peaks there are no IET services which solely run on OLE.

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Can't add anything to that. Where there's a will there's a way.

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So LNER has 44 x 9 car sets compared with GWRs 35. I just don't buy that LNER can't let go of say 4 x 9 car 800s in exchange for say 5 or 6 5 car 802s. Still leaves them with 9 x 9 car sets to do the Inverness and Aberdeen trains. Yes a slight loss of capacity for LNER but that would hopefully be felt on the less busy services to Lincoln and the like.

See my reply, in the peaks there is not a single IET service which only runs on OLE. Electric only 801s are useless to GWR.

 

[irish_rail]

Electric services can run solely between London and Cardiff yes, however if you look at the GWR timetable you will see that is only an off-peak service group, in the peaks 2tph run through to Swansea (in a similar way to how the West of England semi-fasts step up from bi-hourly to hourly in the peaks).

Thus there are no single 800 diagrams which could be replaced by an electric 801 as in the peaks there are no IET services which solely run on OLE.

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See my reply, in the peaks there is not a single IET service which only runs on OLE. Electric only 801s are useless to GWR.

Yes but I'm suggesting taking (say) 4 x 800s not 801s. LNER only need the 800s for the Inverness and Aberdeen. 9 sets would be enough to provide that.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Can't add anything to that. Where there's a will there's a way.

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So LNER has 44 x 9 car sets compared with GWRs 35. I just don't buy that LNER can't let go of say 4 x 9 car 800s in exchange for say 5 or 6 5 car 802s. Still leaves them with 9 x 9 car sets to do the Inverness and Aberdeen trains. Yes a slight loss of capacity for LNER but that would hopefully be felt on the less busy services to Lincoln and the like.

Lincoln services are 5 cars already.

The 9 car 800s are used solely for Highland services. You seem to have forgotten that is a 7hr - 8hr run so you actually need quite a few sets to cover it unlike the shorter 5hr run to Penzance!

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Yes but I'm suggesting taking (say) 4 x 800s not 801s. LNER only need the 800s for the Inverness and Aberdeen. 9 sets would be enough to provide that.

I suggest you look at the timetable and then you will see 9 sets aren’t enough…

On your basis that LNER only need 9 car sets for the Highland services you could argue the same that GWR only need 9 car sets for services into Cornwall…

 

[irish_rail]

Lincoln services are 5 cars already.

The 9 car 800s are used solely for Highland services. You seem to have forgotten that is a 7hr - 8hr run so you actually need quite a few sets to cover it unlike the shorter 5hr run to Penzance!

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I suggest you look at the timetable and then you will see 9 sets aren’t enough…

One train a day to Inverness. Its hardly a drain on the fleet.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

One train a day to Inverness. Its hardly a drain on the fleet.

And 4 trains each way a day to Aberdeen… or did you conveniently overlook these?

 

[irish_rail]

And 4 trains each way a day to Aberdeen… or did you conveniently overlook these?

So run 10 car sets to Edinburgh and split it for a 5 to continue to Aberdeen on some services. I'm fairly sure not all 4 (or isn't it 3?) services a day to Aberdeen wouldn't be able to cope as a 5 car??! After all its good enough for the Western so why not the Scots?

 

[Annetts key]

What benefit are you getting from this swap? All you’re doing is you’re creating another sub fleet and losing flexibility. What happens when an 800 fails but only 801s are available in the depot?

I’m not proposing a swap. I’m just asking why.

 

[Horizon22]

So run 10 car sets to Edinburgh and split it for a 5 to continue to Aberdeen on some services. I'm fairly sure not all 4 (or isn't it 3?) services a day to Aberdeen wouldn't be able to cope as a 5 car??! After all its good enough for the Western so why not the Scots?

Yet you constantly rattle on about how bad splitting at Plymouth is, so why do you feel it is suitable to do that there (not withstanding any logistical, diagramming or depot constraints)? Not happy with looking to take away from other GWR routes I see you’ve cast your net even wider this time to Scotland!

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So run 10 car sets to Edinburgh and split it for a 5 to continue to Aberdeen on some services. I'm fairly sure not all 4 (or isn't it 3?) services a day to Aberdeen wouldn't be able to cope as a 5 car??! After all its good enough for the Western so why not the Scots?

Oh wow you really have sunk to new lows here which I’m afraid just removes any serious credibility from your suggestion.

You are suggesting halving capacity to Aberdeen? May I suggest you go and travel on one of these services…

Is this all because GWR for a couple of years split the 9 (note that is more than double the 4 Aberdeen services) Penzance services at Plymouth. A Decision which has now been reversed on all except the 17.04 departures from Paddington and 9 car 802s allocated instead?

 

[irish_rail]

Yet you constantly rattle on about how bad splitting at Plymouth is, so why do you feel it is suitable to do that there (not withstanding any logistical, diagramming or depot constraints)? Not happy with looking to take away from other GWR routes I see you’ve cast your net even wider this time to Scotland!

I don't rattle on. I am quite ok with the current set up of a couple of splits and joins at Plymouth as it maintains driver competency. What I objected to was when every train was splitting and joining. Unlike the Inverness, much of the Aberdeen traffic is to and from Edinburgh and supplements the Scotrail services so splitting would be less inconvenient for passengers.
And capacity needs to be focused on where it is needed, and if that means a very slight reduction on an LNER route then that is what should happen. Although due to the daft disjointed franchises we suffer, it won't happen. All alot easier in BR days when the routes with the greatest need got the stock.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Yet you constantly rattle on about how bad splitting at Plymouth is, so why do you feel it is suitable to do that there (not withstanding any logistical, diagramming or depot constraints)? Not happy with looking to take away from other GWR routes I see you’ve cast your net even wider this time to Scotland!

Indeed we now have the situation where only one Penzance service splits at Plymouth (the 17.04 from Paddington) and yet the OP wants to halve capacity to Aberdeen in retaliation for this one split at Plymouth…

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Unlike the Inverness, much of the Aberdeen traffic is to and from Edinburgh and supplements the Scotrail services so splitting would be less inconvenient for passengers.

In much the same way as some London traffic is to Plymouth, and from Plymouth is supplements the GWR local service in Cornwall.

May I ask what data you have to back up your claims there is very little cross Edinburgh traffic?

I suggest you go for a trip on a London to Aberdeen service in summer….

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All alot easier in BR days when the routes with the greatest need got the stock.

Or in early privatisation days when the Aberdeen and Inverness routes got the 9 car HSTs as they were busier than the 8 car Penzance HSTs…

 

[irish_rail]

Indeed we now have the situation where only one Penzance service splits at Plymouth (the 17.04 from Paddington) and yet the OP wants to halve capacity to Aberdeen in retaliation for this one split at Plymouth…

This has nothing to do with Plymouth. This is about come December when many GWR services will regularly be short formed due to the Dft decision to remove the Castles. Its all very well giving Aberdeen passengers a nice seat without having to sit next to a stranger, but what about the people at the places like Bristol Parkway and Taunton who will get left behind when a 5 car turns up vice 10 or 9.

 

[Annetts key]

Electric services can run solely between London and Cardiff yes, however if you look at the GWR timetable you will see that is only an off-peak service group, in the peaks 2tph run through to Swansea (in a similar way to how the West of England semi-fasts step up from bi-hourly to hourly in the peaks).

Thus there are no single 800 diagrams which could be replaced by an electric 801 as in the peaks there are no IET services which solely run on OLE.

Which rather shows how stupid it was to discontinue work on the OHL system between Cardiff Central and Swansea, and to discontinue work on the OHL system between Chippenham and Bristol Temple Meads…

 

[HamworthyGoods]

This has nothing to do with Plymouth. This is about come December when many GWR services will regularly be short formed due to the Dft decision to remove the Castles. Its all very well giving Aberdeen passengers a nice seat without having to sit next to a stranger, but what about the people at the places like Bristol Parkway and Taunton who will get left behind when a 5 car turns up vice 10 or 9.

You clearly haven’t travelled on the London to Aberdeen services have you if you think they load that lightly?

Why do you think in holiday periods the trains as first passenger set down in Edinburgh northbound etc? Because they are busy…

 

[irish_rail]

Indeed we now have the situation where only one Penzance service splits at Plymouth (the 17.04 from Paddington) and yet the OP wants to halve capacity to Aberdeen in retaliation for this one split at Plymouth…

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In much the same way as some London traffic is to Plymouth, and from Plymouth is supplements the GWR local service in Cornwall.

May I ask what data you have to back up your claims there is very little cross Edinburgh traffic?

I suggest you go for a trip on a London to Aberdeen service in summer….

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Or in early privatisation days when the Aberdeen and Inverness routes got the 9 car HSTs as they were busier than the 8 car Penzance HSTs…

Well what do you suggest to sort GWR (which risks becoming the new TPE come december) ? There simply will not be the fleet resilience to cope. And if that means Scotrail having to take up some of the slack on the Aberdeen route then surely thats better than letting the GWR franchise descend into the kind of chaos that's been seen elsewhere?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Well what do you suggest to sort GWR (which risks becoming the new TPE come december) ? There simply will not be the fleet resilience to cope. And if that means Scotrail having to take up some of the slack on the Aberdeen route then surely thats better than letting the GWR franchise descend into the kind of chaos that's been seen elsewhere?

I would suggest there isn’t slack on the Aberdeen route…

Look at these service changes for Maundy Thursday and Good Friday to do with passenger loadings London to stations north of Edinburgh. That’s akin to GWR making Penzance trains first set down Plymouth.

Do you now see whatever the issue is on GWR robbing capacity from Aberdeen and Inverness just creates a problem somewhere else?

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Well what do you suggest to sort GWR (which risks becoming the new TPE come december) ?

TPE’s issue is Crew not stock related.

 

[irish_rail]

My suggestion is that with a fleet of 9 x 9 car 800s, that the Inverness could stay as 9s (2 sets per day ) and that 2 out of the 3 Aberdeens could also remain as 9s (4 sets per day) . Thats 6 sets with 3 spare. Only one Aberdeen train would then need to split at Edinburgh. I'm sure on busy times like Easter that one of the 3 spare 800s could be pressed into use.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

My suggestion is that with a fleet of 9 x 9 car 800s, that the Inverness could stay as 9s (2 sets per day ) and that 2 out of the 3 Aberdeens could also remain as 9s (4 sets per day) . Thats 6 sets with 3 spare. One Aberdeen train would then need to split at Edinburgh. I'm sure on busy times like Easter that one of the 3 spare 800s could be pressed into use.

I thought you said fleets needed to be planned reislliently, you have just proposed the opposite!

 

[irish_rail]

TPE’s issue is Crew not stock related.

I'm aware of that merely pointing out that TPE is a by word for poor service and don't want GWR to end up down that road.

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I thought you said fleets needed to be planned reislliently, you have just proposed the opposite!

So planning a fleet to be used at 66 percent usage most of the time isn't resilient?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I'm aware of that merely pointing out that TPE is a by word for poor service and don't want GWR to end up down that road.

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So planning a fleet to be used at 66 percent usage most of the time isn't resilient?

No because you need to include ALL the Aberdeens as 9 cars to meet capacity. No business is going to agree to a swap which removes capacity where there is already a capacity problem.

Put those Aberdeen trains back to 9 cars where they belong and you need 8 from 9 sets which isn’t resilient.

I understand your desire to protect your local area but London to Cornwall trains aren’t the only busy 5hr plus London Intercity services in Great Britain, there’s no point just moving around the problem.

 

[irish_rail]

No because you need to include ALL the Aberdeens as 9 cars to meet capacity. No business is going to agree to a swap which removes capacity where there is already a capacity problem.

Put those Aberdeen trains back to 9 cars where they belong and you need 8 from 9 sets which isn’t resilient.

I understand your desire to protect your local area but London to Cornwall trains aren’t the only busy 5hr plus London Intercity services in Great Britain, there’s no point just moving around the problem.

Sure and I agree. I've seen for myself lately how busy the other GWR routes are getting, and this is my concern. Its the entire GWR franchise which is desperate for capacity now, not just the WofE route. I just don't see what will happen come December other than countless short formed trains. It will be a disaster. And with the DfT calling the shots they could quite easily dictate to LNER that they are swapping a handful of sets. Also, is there any reason why the one Aberdeen train I proposed as splitting not be formed as a 10 car throughout? That way no capacity lost at all on the Scottish service.

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Also, I don't confess to be an expert on the old British Rail as I was never employed by them, but from what I can see they were very good at moving traction and rolling stock around the country as required, including between and within different sectors. Examples such as extending the Paddington HSTs to 8 coaches and re allocating Power cars around the country depending on where the needs where greatest. It was all much easier from what I can see then but now we have complex contracts in place and everyone (myself included) have our own vested interests.

 

[Benjwri]

Also, is there any reason why the one Aberdeen train I proposed as splitting not be formed as a 10 car throughout? That way no capacity lost at all on the Scottish service.

Why can't GWR do the same? LNER then just have the same staffing problems as you have pointed out GWR have on 10 car 800s in many other threads. All you are suggesting is pushing GWRs problem onto LNER, in return for 1 or 2 less, but admittedly longer trains. If this were to happen I can nearly guarantee in half a year you'd be back here complaining that GWR were cancelling services because of a shortage of trains, especially your Penzance services in the morning when a 9 car fails and can't just be uncoupled like a 10 car.

 

[XAM2175]

Also, I don't confess to be an expert on the old British Rail as I was never employed by them, but from what I can see they were very good at moving traction and rolling stock around the country as required, including between and within different sectors.

This being a good thing only holds up for you if GWR actually does have the greatest need.

 

[irish_rail]

This being a good thing only holds up for you if GWR actually does have the greatest need.

Pretty sure capacity on the entirety of GWR is more needy than Edinburgh to Aberdeen.

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Why can't GWR do the same? LNER then just have the same staffing problems as you have pointed out GWR have on 10 car 800s in many other threads. All you are suggesting is pushing GWRs problem onto LNER, in return for 1 or 2 less, but admittedly longer trains. If this were to happen I can nearly guarantee in half a year you'd be back here complaining that GWR were cancelling services because of a shortage of trains, especially your Penzance services in the morning when a 9 car fails and can't just be uncoupled like a 10 car.

Its one train. Its running countless 10 car trains that leads to inevitable issues. Running one train as a 10 isn't likely to be as damaging from a resilience or staffing point of view, and likely be covered with existing staffing numbers.

 

[Master29]

LNER only have 13 x 9 car class 800 sets, this is comparable with GWR’s 14 x 9 car 802s.

In a similar way to GWR uses the 9 car 802 on services into Cornwall where there are short platforms and stabling constraints LNER uses their 9 car class 800 sets on Highland services to Inverness and Aberdeen which are similar style Intercity services to Cornwall and I believe 10 cars are actually banned in the Highlands.

I’m not sure why you feel there is such an imbalance between 13 x 800 and 14 x 802 unless you are on about LNER’s 30 x 9 car 801s which are pure EMU so would be totally useless for GWR so form no useful comparison. You wouldn’t get one of these behind Newbury!! Maybe that is actually why you get shouted down because you suggest the impossible?

What benefit are you getting from this swap? All you’re doing is you’re creating another sub fleet and losing flexibility. What happens when an 800 fails but only 801s are available in the depot?

It has nothing to do with which units are electrified and bi mode, it's about the the poor ratio of 9/5 sets between LNER and GWR. LNER has 2/3rds 9 car whilst it's the other way round with GWR. Surely "flexibility" works both ways. 5 car numbers first (57/35 GWR and 22/43 LNER).

 

[irish_rail]

It has nothing to do with which units are electrified and bi mode, it's about the the poor ratio of 9/5 sets between LNER and GWR. LNER has 2/3rds 9 car whilst it's the other way round with GWR. Surely "flexibility" works both ways.

This .

 

[Clarence Yard]

Can we put a stop to fantasy unit transfers please? For very good ECML service and Agility contractual reasons, it isn’t going to happen. If it was BR, the likelihood is that WR would get more 5 cars, not less, as the ECML would become a largely 9 car railway - it was regarded by BR as a more important route than the WR, especially concerning the services to the South West.

If the great cartographers schemes hadn’t reached fruition but the use of Hitachi units still took place, both routes would have had a mix of 7 and 9 car sets, with a buffet car as well as the end kitchen car. There would have been no 5 cars at all and, obviously, no splitting and joining.

Somewhere, I still have what FG was looking at before the IEP took hold and it would have been much simpler to operate, on both GWR and what is now LNER.

As for December, you do actually want the Bristol to Penzance corridor to see enough 5 car 802 sets in 10 car formations at either the Bristol end or at Plymouth, so the spares can tend to sit at either/both of SG and/or LA rather than being in London. That will help greatly when it comes to potential shortforming.

 

[irish_rail]

Can we put a stop to fantasy unit transfers please? For very good ECML service and Agility contractual reasons, it isn’t going to happen. If it was BR, the likelihood is that WR would get more 5 cars, not less, as the ECML would become a largely 9 car railway - it was regarded by BR as a more important route than the WR, especially concerning the services to the South West.

If the great cartographers schemes hadn’t reached fruition but the use of Hitachi units still took place, both routes would have had a mix of 7 and 9 car sets, with a buffet car as well as the end kitchen car. There would have been no 5 cars at all and, obviously, no splitting and joining.

Somewhere, I still have what FG was looking at before the IEP took hold and it would have been much simpler to operate, on both GWR and what is now LNER.

As for December, you do actually want the Bristol to Penzance corridor to see enough 5 car 802 sets in 10 car formations at either the Bristol end or at Plymouth, so the spares can tend to sit at either/both of SG and/or LA rather than being in London. That will help greatly when it comes to potential shortforming.

So the plan from December is more 10s on the wofe route then? Oh dear. As you say, if only the build had been fully 7s and 9s we would have a much better railway on both Western and Eastern.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, I just said enough. If the planners haven’t then it will increase the chance of a short form because the spares will tend to be at the wrong end when they are most likely to be needed.

 

[Master29]

Looks like the fantasy of railways as a public service never really was.