GWR short train lengths

[HamworthyGoods]

So the plan from December is more 10s on the wofe route then? Oh dear. As you say, if only the build had been fully 7s and 9s we would have a much better railway on both Western and Eastern.

No, you’ve had it pointed out many times that the Cardiff to Penzance corridor requires 13 of the 802 units leaving on 6 spare of which these are already used on West of England services so that isn’t going to be increased as it’s not physically impossible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Mar 2023 ==

It has nothing to do with which units are electrified and bi mode, it's about the the poor ratio of 9/5 sets between LNER and GWR. LNER has 2/3rds 9 car whilst it's the other way round with GWR. Surely "flexibility" works both ways. 5 car numbers first (57/35 GWR and 22/43 LNER).

Yes LNER has more 9 car Hitachi sets but greater number of those are not able to work on GWR routes in any meaningful format due to the lack of diesel engine so are irrelevant for a comparison. It has everything to do with what is EMU and what is bi-mode as GWR would be unable to diagram a full days work on an Electric Only set.

So if you actually compare bi-mode fleets between GWR and LNER in the same 5/9 format GWR stays as 57/35 and LNER is 13/10.

 

[Master29]

Yes LNER has more 9 car Hitachi sets but greater number of those are not able to work on GWR routes in any meaningful format due to the lack of diesel engine so are irrelevant for a comparison. It has everything to do with what is EMU and what is bi-mode as GWR would be unable to diagram a full days work on an Electric Only set.

So if you actually compare bi-mode fleets between GWR and LNER in the same 5/9 format GWR stays as 57/35 and LNER is 13/10.

You are completely missing the point. Even if the west were electrified and used 801s, that is not what I meant. It's about the difference in 9/5 car ratios rather than which units are electrified. It is simply because the GWR is considered less important to the LNER as Clarence yard admits, probably because of politics and businesses.

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, it’s revenue. It’s always revenue.

 

[irish_rail]

No, it’s revenue. It’s always revenue.

Does LNER make more money than GWR?

 

[Benjwri]

Does LNER make more money than GWR?

Hard to tell given how TOC contracts are now structured. However the DfT Service Agreement Subsidy might give some idea. The GWR subsidy is around double that of LNER.

 

[dciuk]

Hard to tell given how TOC contracts are now structured. However the DfT Service Agreement Subsidy might give some idea. The GWR subsidy is around double that of LNER.

Are they comparable as GWR runs lots of branch lines and a sleeper service, but LNER only run intercity services

 

[Clarence Yard]

Does LNER make more money than GWR?

Huge difference. The ECML is a cash cow. Taking only London flows, Leeds is twice as big as Bristol TM. Newcastle and Edinburgh are well over twice what you get out of Cardiff or Swindon and York is over twice what you get out of B.Parkway or Bath. The latter two are also only comparable to Doncaster, Durham or Darlington.

Newark is twice what you get from Swansea and is comparable with Exeter. Grantham easily beats Plymouth, by about 20%.

There’s a lot of money to be had on the ECML. The GWML isn’t nearly as lucrative.

 

[irish_rail]

Huge difference. The ECML is a cash cow. Taking only London flows, Leeds is twice as big as Bristol TM. Newcastle and Edinburgh are well over twice what you get out of Cardiff or Swindon and York is over twice what you get out of B.Parkway or Bath. The latter two are also only comparable to Doncaster, Durham or Darlington.

Newark is twice what you get from Swansea and is comparable with Exeter. Grantham easily beats Plymouth, by about 20%.

There’s a lot of money to be had on the ECML. The GWML isn’t nearly as lucrative.

Crikey that's an eye opener! One has to question what is the Western doing wrong when a city the size of Plymouth is being trounced by Grantham in terms of passenger numbers!!!! (Grantham population 44,000 compared with Plymouth at about a quarter of a million).

 

[dciuk]

Crikey that's an eye opener! One has to question what is the Western doing wrong when a city the size of Plymouth is being trounced by Grantham in terms of passenger numbers!!!! (Grantham population 44,000 compared with Plymouth at about a quarter of a million).

Does Grantham have a large catchment area? A lot of the local towns and villages near Plymouth will find it quicker to travel to Totnes or Tiverton Parkway than making the journey via Plymouth

 

[Benjwri]

Crikey that's an eye opener! One has to question what is the Western doing wrong when a city the size of Plymouth is being trounced by Grantham in terms of passenger numbers!!!! (Grantham population 44,000 compared with Plymouth at about a quarter of a million).

Yes how is exactly my question.

Huge difference. The ECML is a cash cow. Taking only London flows, Leeds is twice as big as Bristol TM. Newcastle and Edinburgh are well over twice what you get out of Cardiff or Swindon and York is over twice what you get out of B.Parkway or Bath. The latter two are also only comparable to Doncaster, Durham or Darlington.

Newark is twice what you get from Swansea and is comparable with Exeter. Grantham easily beats Plymouth, by about 20%.

There’s a lot of money to be had on the ECML. The GWML isn’t nearly as lucrative.

But I don’t understand physically how there are so many people getting on these trains? LNER has effectively 10 full sets less than GWR (counting 2x5car or a 9 car as a full set), so they don’t have some huge amount of extra capacity.

The loadings on the trains aren’t hugely different, I don’t have a lot of experience on LNER, but from what I have been on and guesswork from their seat guarantee, they aren’t full and standing the whole time, and GWR isn’t carting round air all the time

And the pricing also isn’t that different, so I just don’t get how LNER can carry a similar amount of people for a slightly higher price and make such a hugely increased turnover.

 

[Krokodil]

5TPH out of KGX (2xEDB, 2xLDS, 1xYRK/LCN seems to be a typical hour). 8TPH out of PAD (not counting Newbury services which are 387s). Only thing I can think of is that LNER's services are concentrated on a single corridor, generally serving only major towns and cities unlike GWR's which often have a stagger at the ends of the route, stopping frequently. Maybe the average LNER passenger is travelling further than the average GWR one. Is the issue that a larger proportion of the passengers on GWR's intercity services are only going to/from Reading than those who go to Grantham or Peterborough?

 

[Horizon22]

Sure and I agree. I've seen for myself lately how busy the other GWR routes are getting, and this is my concern. Its the entire GWR franchise which is desperate for capacity now, not just the WofE route. I just don't see what will happen come December other than countless short formed trains. It will be a disaster.

It may well be. But then again much of the country and many other TOCs are in the same boat and it is not isolated to GWR. XC for instance has been chronically under capacity for years.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

Yes how is exactly my question.

But I don’t understand physically how there are so many people getting on these trains? LNER has effectively 10 full sets less than GWR (counting 2x5car or a 9 car as a full set), so they don’t have some huge amount of extra capacity.

I’m not sure but aren’t a couple of units at a time out of scope for major repairs? Also there’s normally quite a few units stopped by Hitachi.

 

[nw1]

Sadly I’m not sure any government is going to care about the railway.

Maybe when climate change becomes more of a motivating factor and there is more of a desire to transfer people onto public transport, it will?

Maybe when we come out of the current economic hard times, it will?

At Beeching, doubtless people said the railway was on the road to ruin - but of course there have been high points since, such as the introduction of the HST, NSE improvements in the late 80s/early 90s, and the WCML upgrade.

 

[Benjwri]

I’m not sure but aren’t a couple of units at a time out of scope for major repairs? Also there’s normally quite a few units stopped by Hitachi.

LNERs are more reliable having come from a different factory, but not to that extent, and they still have the exact same issues as GWR with cracking.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Mar 2023 ==

What I have thought of though was the above post mentioned only London flows. Perhaps GWRs market is more travel around the west rather than to London, so isn’t counted in that comparison, and makes less money because of the ‘London Tax’

 

[Clarence Yard]

No, they are not “more reliable because they have come from a different factory”. The build quality on both the GWR 800 and 802 fleets is exactly the same. The problem is the performance of the kit on or under the trains and that can be exacerbated by the duty cycle they have to perform.

For example, the higher rated engines on GWR and required length/time of diesel operation does lead to more GU issues.

 

[fandroid]

Crikey that's an eye opener! One has to question what is the Western doing wrong when a city the size of Plymouth is being trounced by Grantham in terms of passenger numbers!!!! (Grantham population 44,000 compared with Plymouth at about a quarter of a million).

Plymouth is hugely further from London (than Grantham) in time terms. My employer puts in the same category as Newcastle in terms expenses permitted on subsistence when doing the return journey.

 

[Krokodil]

For example, the higher rated engines on GWR and required length/time of diesel operation does lead to more GU issues.

In other words the failure to complete the planned electrification to Bristol/Swansea/Oxford is costing money. This is what happens when penny-pinchers cut corners. Time to extract all of that steelwork from its airfield storage.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Yes how is exactly my question.

But I don’t understand physically how there are so many people getting on these trains? LNER has effectively 10 full sets less than GWR (counting 2x5car or a 9 car as a full set), so they don’t have some huge amount of extra capacity.

The loadings on the trains aren’t hugely different, I don’t have a lot of experience on LNER, but from what I have been on and guesswork from their seat guarantee, they aren’t full and standing the whole time, and GWR isn’t carting round air all the time

And the pricing also isn’t that different, so I just don’t get how LNER can carry a similar amount of people for a slightly higher price and make such a hugely increased turnover.

It’s in the yield. Again taking only the London flows, The pre-COVID average on the ECML for Durham, Darlington, Newcastle and Edinburgh was in excess of the top WR performer in the list below - in the case of Newcastle it was nearly 25% more but Edinburgh was only around 10% more, thanks to the air competition.

Leeds and B.Parkway had near identical average yields. Cardiff, Plymouth, Exeter and Swansea were either equivalent to or just below York. Bristol TM and Doncaster were near identical. Swindon and Bath were both equivalent to Newark or Retford.

 

[Benjwri]

In other words the failure to complete the planned electrification to Bristol/Swansea/Oxford is costing money. This is what happens when penny-pinchers cut corners. Time to extract all of that steelwork from its airfield storage.

Although how much the GU issues are costing is a good question, and unless we knew that we can't really tell which ended up more expensive.

Who actually picks up the tab for Class 800 maintenance?

 

[Annetts key]

Who actually picks up the tab for Class 800 maintenance?

At the end of the day, ultimately, the tax payer.

 

[Clarence Yard]

If it costs more than they have budgeted for in the fixed daily unit rate, it’s Hitachi’s (Aglity’s) problem, not GWR’s and not the taxpayer’s, thank goodness.

 

[Krokodil]

Although how much the GU issues are costing is a good question, and unless we knew that we can't really tell which ended up more expensive.

Paying Agility to convert 21 planned 801s to 800s, remodel the depots, fuel and maintain all of those diesel engines (not forgetting a nice fat wedge on top for themselves) has almost certainly cost GWR's slice of taxpayer funds more than curtailing electrification 'saved' Network Rail from its slice of taxpayer funds.

That's before you consider GU issues.

 

[Annetts key]

If it costs more than they have budgeted for in the fixed daily unit rate, it’s Hitachi’s (Aglity’s) problem, not GWR’s and not the taxpayer’s, thank goodness.

But who is paying Hitachi/Aglity? If Hitachi/Aglity are not able to make a suitable profit, they will find a way to either get more money, or find a way to withdraw from the contract. The buck eventually ends up in the hands of the tax payer.

 

[Clarence Yard]

They are making enough to absorb the costs. Those units cost GWR five figures a day, per diagrammed unit and
GWR doesn’t escape the charges if they don’t use them.

 

[Master29]

I think we also need to remember that there is a considerable standard seating difference between GWR and LNER as well. GWR 5 car 290 to LNER 254 and 9 car LNER 490 to GWR 576.

 

[Emaharg]

A lot of IET sets parked up at Laira, minimum of 4, 1420 on a Friday. Is that just displacement from the strikes or awaiting repairs?

 

[Jrocks]

This is probably down to the fact that the WoE had a reduced service today, with the fast services picking up some local stops and the 'stoppers' being cancelled altogether.

 

[Falcon1200]

To add to an old but still relevant discussion: Today, Monday 26th June, GWR cancelled the 1118 Paddington -Cardiff (which appears to have been a pre-planned change, perhaps to release stock/crews for the Glastonbury exodus?); And then provided a 5-car for the next train to Wales, 1148 Paddington -Carmarthen. Resulting in gross overcrowding, passengers standing throughout the train, and people (including the elderly) finding their reserved seats already occupied. And of course no at seat catering either.

A complete and utter disgrace.

 

[irish_rail]

To add to an old but still relevant discussion: Today, Monday 26th June, GWR cancelled the 1118 Paddington -Cardiff (which appears to have been a pre-planned change, perhaps to release stock/crews for the Glastonbury exodus?); And then provided a 5-car for the next train to Wales, 1148 Paddington -Carmarthen. Resulting in gross overcrowding, passengers standing throughout the train, and people (including the elderly) finding their reserved seats already occupied. And of course no at seat catering either.

A complete and utter disgrace.

Agreed. Same happened last week with the 1103 Padd to Plymouth. Its the dead hand of the Dft to blame for this mess, the need for more 9 cars has never been so great on the Western. Yet the money won't be found, probably ever.

 

[Falcon1200]

Agreed. Same happened last week with the 1103 Padd to Plymouth. Its the dead hand of the Dft to blame for this mess, the need for more 9 cars has never been so great on the Western. Yet the money won't be found, probably ever.

Perhaps, but the DfT does not determine how GWR utilises it's fleet on a day to day basis, and yesterday's shambles was IMHO a clear example of poor planning and total lack of concern for passengers.