GWR Class 800

[broadgage]

It seems to me that the difference in performance between an IET and an HST is relatively minor and of little practical concern to the average passenger.
I see no harm in discussing and analysing these differences and arguing as to whether the HST or the IET performs better on different routes or parts thereof.

I retain my dislike of the new DMUs, but for the considerable downgrade of passenger facilities, not for possible gains or losses of a couple of minutes.

And yes I maintain that these are DMUs, they have underfloor diesel engines and are powered by these engines most of the time. I appreciate that advocates of the new units prefer to call them anything other than DMUs because of the negative connotations of "dmu" in the real world.

A 5 car DMU is not suitable for most long distance or inter city routes. The voyagers are now admitted to have been too short, so lets order a load more short DMUs for long distance trains.
It is not just me who feels that long distance trains should have a proper buffet car.
And a working reservation system.
And be full length, and gangwayed throughout.
And despite advocates of the new DMUs stating that short formations are rare or "not a regular feature" frequent appearance of a single 5 car DMU instead of a "proper inter city train" is a frequent cause of complaint.

If going to Plymouth from London, my priorities are, in order
Will I get a seat ? problematic on a 5 car, which may well be full and standing on arrival at Plymouth.
Will I get my reserved seat ? not on a half length train, and doubtful on a full length train.
Will there be a buffet? No way !
Will there be a Pullman restaurant? Possibly, but provision has been patchy, especially with 5 car units.
Will the seat be comfortable ? this is of course very subjective, but it seems that most passengers including me would prefer padded seats.
Will the trolley appear ? maybe, though on a 5+5 train, sods law says it will be in the other portion.

Near the bottom of my list are very slight changes in journey times, I would prefer to sit for 190 minutes on an HST than to stand for 180 minutes on a half length DMU.
External livery is also a very low priority for me, hardly visible once on board.

 

[Geoff DC]

1st trip on an IET yesterday, the 10:57 Paddington Penzance 10car 2x5 - 1C79 - Failed between Racecourse & Newbury due to a ‘Technical Fault in the lead set’ but eventually 'fixed by the driver' so 20L at Newbury and increasing thereafter.

Rammed through to Cornwall, my first class reserved seat was K48 in standard so something amiss in the booking engine maybe. Fortunately there were a few spare seats in the other car.

Not as bad as expected, 1st Class seat was just about OK for comfort (I’m 6’2”), but ride noise & vibration possibly worse than the HST I had the day before in the Up direction, I guess the one improvement will be less jolting with wheel slip.

Ambience & design wise not really suitable as a long distance Inter City Train, especially with no buffet & very limited trolley service, but fine for Inter City commuters like Bristol/London.

 

[Class37.4]

Such as where? All the moaning was about how the 800s did not perform when running on diesel on 125mph sections of line like an HST does - which was never the intention or expectation, had electrification gone as planned. So it's hardly surprising that they don't and, fingers crossed, in a few weeks' time, almost all the 125mph passed bits of the GWML will be using 25kv traction anyway.

As I say, on the Cotswold Line, one of the places the 800s were always going to work on diesel all the time, with a maximum permitted speed of 100mph, they go very nicely thank you.



So we're reduced to guesswork. I thought it had already been clearly demonstrated, as you indicated, that the 802s have a different acceleration curve from the 800s - which isn't a surprise since the 800 settings are a compromise to compensate for the need for diesel running for a long distance at 100mph+ that are being used at the behest of the DfT, while the other is what GWR wants on the 802s that it specified after analysing the results of a lot of test running of various traction system and acceleration settings to get the best out of the trains.



mralexn's comments were not about measured performance, just a bit of casual observation and assertion about what the IET was or was not doing that didn't even give the full picture of the runs by it and the HST back from London that evening.

Where’s the like button, I get fed up of the moaning about performance when they are working diesel sections beyond design spec that were meant to electrified by now.

The moaning about a buffet car is very subjective and little to do with the actual Train my view that about the only routes which actually justify a buffet car these days are the Anglo Scottish routes and maybe London Penzance so perhaps on that basis the 802 should have a buffet.

 

[gallafent]

A 5 car DMU is not suitable for most long distance or inter city routes. The voyagers are now admitted to have been too short, so lets order a load more short DMUs for long distance trains.

In fairness, a 5x26m IET does have a lot more seats than a 5x23m Voyager though. 326 (GWR 5-car class 802) vs 250. And the IETs feel as if they have a lot more legroom too (seat pitch figures not present on wikipedia … and there are many bits of route, particularly the bits a long way from London, where 5 carriages are a lot more appropriate than 9.

And a working reservation system.

Yeah. That would be nice.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Copied straight from my post in another thread:
There is a test path in the system for a 5 car 800 on the 31st October: 5Z40 North Pole - Kennington Goods Loop will then run 5Z41 Kennington Goods Loop - Bedwyn Reversing Siding, stopping at all stations bar Reading and Didcot Parkway, which will then run 5Z42 Bedwyn Reversing Siding - London Paddington, stopping at some stations on the B&H, which then goes back to North Pole via Paddington.

 

[Geoff DC]

Edit: Wrong Thread

 

[Sean Emmett]

In the first case, less rapid acceleration in both electric and diesel modes, and a lower balancing speed in diesel mode. In the second, an inability to keep to HST schedules on sections of line for which the plan was always that they should be running in diesel mode and replacing HSTs.]

No.

The initial acceleration of 800 / 802 on diesel is better than an HST, but the HST will eventually catch up and overtake - if there is enough distance / time. On electric it is no contest, the IET (whether 800 or 802) will leave the HST for dead.

Initial findings are that the 802s perform significantly better than the 800s on diesel, not surprising as their engines remain at the full 940 hp rating throughout the speed range, whereas the 800s gradually throttle back at around 30 mph to the 750 hp setting. The 802s also have a small advantage on electric too as acceleration is not constrained by the curve specified by the DfT in the procurement process.

I have timed a few 802 trips all the way through to Penzance, some of the logs are available to view on the Railway Performance Society (RPS) website, including the inaugural 802 runs on 20 Aug 2018 with a comparison to the previous week's unexceptional HST trip.

See general article on 802 introduction
http://railperf.org.uk/docs/802intro.pdf

See log file for South West England
http://railperf.org.uk/docs/IET SW.xls

It is worth noting that the time of 22m 01s from Taunton to Exeter for the inaugural 802 run on 20 Aug 2018 would put it in the top 15% of HST runs for that section, in a database of over 700 logs. Also, although while an HST may record higher minimum speeds on Dainton, the 802 will often beat it to the summit from either Newton Abbot or Totnes by virtue of the faster start.

Eastbound from Plymouth the 802s beat the HST up Hemerdon even though the HST was going 5 mph faster on the bank and had to be eased for the 60 at the top. The exception being the 802s with an engine out, effectively demonstrating 800 performance. This is by virtue of the faster starts possible up to Mutley tunnel with distributed traction.

Eastbound from Reading, the 802 (on electric) was already over a minute quicker through Twyford than the HST.

But with an 800 it's a different story. Bath to Chippenham will remain diesel for the foreseeable future. Of 736 HST logs currently in the RPS archive, the fastest is 9m 17s (which included some overspeeding) and 57 were less than 10 minutes, including some of mine. So far there are 31 logs with IETs, of which 30 are 800s. The fastest of the 800 runs was 10m 31s, and the single 802 run was 10m 08s.

Although I have yet to time an 802 on the Cotswold line, from comparisons elsewhere an 802 will gain around 30 seconds or so on every acceleration compared with an 800, where line speed allows. The gap is even more stark on a long climb e.g. Whiteball from Taunton.

So I reckon on the Cotswold line, an 802 (or 'unmuzzled' 800) could save say 5 minutes between Oxford and Worcester. Surely this would be useful in making up time and/or clearing the single line sections? However, I appreciate that this would depend on the running of the train coming the other way, and would come at a cost in terms of increased maintenance. I assume that someone has already priced this trade-off?

Back down to Bristol on Friday, interested to see if it will be pan up after Steventon...

 

[Wychwood93]

No.

The initial acceleration of 800 / 802 on diesel is better than an HST, but the HST will eventually catch up and overtake - if there is enough distance / time. On electric it is no contest, the IET (whether 800 or 802) will leave the HST for dead.

Initial findings are that the 802s perform significantly better than the 800s on diesel, not surprising as their engines remain at the full 940 hp rating throughout the speed range, whereas the 800s gradually throttle back at around 30 mph to the 750 hp setting. The 802s also have a small advantage on electric too as acceleration is not constrained by the curve specified by the DfT in the procurement process.

I have timed a few 802 trips all the way through to Penzance, some of the logs are available to view on the Railway Performance Society (RPS) website, including the inaugural 802 runs on 20 Aug 2018 with a comparison to the previous week's unexceptional HST trip.

See general article on 802 introduction
http://railperf.org.uk/docs/802intro.pdf

See log file for South West England
http://railperf.org.uk/docs/IET SW.xls

It is worth noting that the time of 22m 01s from Taunton to Exeter for the inaugural 802 run on 20 Aug 2018 would put it in the top 15% of HST runs for that section, in a database of over 700 logs. Also, although while an HST may record higher minimum speeds on Dainton, the 802 will often beat it to the summit from either Newton Abbot or Totnes by virtue of the faster start.

Eastbound from Plymouth the 802s beat the HST up Hemerdon even though the HST was going 5 mph faster on the bank and had to be eased for the 60 at the top. The exception being the 802s with an engine out, effectively demonstrating 800 performance. This is by virtue of the faster starts possible up to Mutley tunnel with distributed traction.

Eastbound from Reading, the 802 (on electric) was already over a minute quicker through Twyford than the HST.

But with an 800 it's a different story. Bath to Chippenham will remain diesel for the foreseeable future. Of 736 HST logs currently in the RPS archive, the fastest is 9m 17s (which included some overspeeding) and 57 were less than 10 minutes, including some of mine. So far there are 31 logs with IETs, of which 30 are 800s. The fastest of the 800 runs was 10m 31s, and the single 802 run was 10m 08s.

Although I have yet to time an 802 on the Cotswold line, from comparisons elsewhere an 802 will gain around 30 seconds or so on every acceleration compared with an 800, where line speed allows. The gap is even more stark on a long climb e.g. Whiteball from Taunton.

So I reckon on the Cotswold line, an 802 (or 'unmuzzled' 800) could save say 5 minutes between Oxford and Worcester. Surely this would be useful in making up time and/or clearing the single line sections? However, I appreciate that this would depend on the running of the train coming the other way, and would come at a cost in terms of increased maintenance. I assume that someone has already priced this trade-off?

Back down to Bristol on Friday, interested to see if it will be pan up after Steventon...

Good post Sean. Interesting to see other replies. DS

 

[ooo]

Do all units have the revised seat covers yet?

No unless its been done since Friday

 

[jayah]

That does not indicate that they are equally capable, which was your original assertion.

My assertion is that if an 802 is capable and 800 can be made capable if it isn't already. As subsequently shown at least some 800s already are.

 

[northernbelle]

No.

The initial acceleration of 800 / 802 on diesel is better than an HST, but the HST will eventually catch up and overtake - if there is enough distance / time. On electric it is no contest, the IET (whether 800 or 802) will leave the HST for dead.

Initial findings are that the 802s perform significantly better than the 800s on diesel, not surprising as their engines remain at the full 940 hp rating throughout the speed range, whereas the 800s gradually throttle back at around 30 mph to the 750 hp setting. The 802s also have a small advantage on electric too as acceleration is not constrained by the curve specified by the DfT in the procurement process.

I have timed a few 802 trips all the way through to Penzance, some of the logs are available to view on the Railway Performance Society (RPS) website, including the inaugural 802 runs on 20 Aug 2018 with a comparison to the previous week's unexceptional HST trip.

See general article on 802 introduction
http://railperf.org.uk/docs/802intro.pdf

See log file for South West England
http://railperf.org.uk/docs/IET SW.xls

It is worth noting that the time of 22m 01s from Taunton to Exeter for the inaugural 802 run on 20 Aug 2018 would put it in the top 15% of HST runs for that section, in a database of over 700 logs. Also, although while an HST may record higher minimum speeds on Dainton, the 802 will often beat it to the summit from either Newton Abbot or Totnes by virtue of the faster start.

Eastbound from Plymouth the 802s beat the HST up Hemerdon even though the HST was going 5 mph faster on the bank and had to be eased for the 60 at the top. The exception being the 802s with an engine out, effectively demonstrating 800 performance. This is by virtue of the faster starts possible up to Mutley tunnel with distributed traction.

Eastbound from Reading, the 802 (on electric) was already over a minute quicker through Twyford than the HST.

But with an 800 it's a different story. Bath to Chippenham will remain diesel for the foreseeable future. Of 736 HST logs currently in the RPS archive, the fastest is 9m 17s (which included some overspeeding) and 57 were less than 10 minutes, including some of mine. So far there are 31 logs with IETs, of which 30 are 800s. The fastest of the 800 runs was 10m 31s, and the single 802 run was 10m 08s.

Although I have yet to time an 802 on the Cotswold line, from comparisons elsewhere an 802 will gain around 30 seconds or so on every acceleration compared with an 800, where line speed allows. The gap is even more stark on a long climb e.g. Whiteball from Taunton.

So I reckon on the Cotswold line, an 802 (or 'unmuzzled' 800) could save say 5 minutes between Oxford and Worcester. Surely this would be useful in making up time and/or clearing the single line sections? However, I appreciate that this would depend on the running of the train coming the other way, and would come at a cost in terms of increased maintenance. I assume that someone has already priced this trade-off?

Back down to Bristol on Friday, interested to see if it will be pan up after Steventon...

An interesting post, thanks.

When you take the wider context, the advantages of a Class 802 over an HST are quite clear. To achieve the same seating capacity of a 9 or 10 car 802, an HST would have to be formed as a 2+10 set, with the obvious penalty in performance. Add to that the electric capability and theoretical ability to lop 5 coaches off/add them where they aren't needed.

Autumn is also starting to prove an interesting comparison between the traction types. I understand the 80x fleet is more keen to suffer wheelslide, although the WSP system seems to be keeping wheel damage to a minimum. Wheelspin appears to be much improved on the HSTs however - we've already suffered a number of stalled HSTs on the banks this year as we seem to every year these days.

 

[jayah]

Good post Sean. Interesting to see other replies. DS

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C46072/2018/10/28/advanced

This was reported as 800304 yesterday.
Seems to be up about a minute at most stations in Cornwall, sometimes 2min and no problems at all hitting the HST times from Plymouth to Taunton.

It would be more relevant to look at typical HSTs vs 800 rather than the fastest ever or top 10% of runs over a number of years that don't reflect how trains are handled in 2018.

 

[broadgage]

Nothing wrong with discussion about technical details, these can be interesting, but the average passenger does not care about marginal differences in journey times.
Very few passengers consider standing on a 5 car DMU to be an improvement over sitting on an 8 car HST.
Very few think that no buffet is an improvement over having a buffet.

It is now over a year since the downgrading started.
What happened to the original promise that all rush hour trains to/from Paddington would be full length ? Single 5 car units have been a regular feature on busy services.
What happened to the original promise that 5+5 car trains would have a trolley in each portion ?

It is all starting to look very Voyager like, these were too short when introduced, and are still too short years later, despite all the assurances that they would be fine.

 

[CMRail]

An interesting post, thanks.

When you take the wider context, the advantages of a Class 802 over an HST are quite clear. To achieve the same seating capacity of a 9 or 10 car 802, an HST would have to be formed as a 2+10 set, with the obvious penalty in performance. Add to that the electric capability and theoretical ability to lop 5 coaches off/add them where they aren't needed.

Autumn is also starting to prove an interesting comparison between the traction types. I understand the 80x fleet is more keen to suffer wheelslide, although the WSP system seems to be keeping wheel damage to a minimum. Wheelspin appears to be much improved on the HSTs however - we've already suffered a number of stalled HSTs on the banks this year as we seem to every year these days.

640 seats is hard to beat with mk3 coaches as you still loose 30 metres as IETs are longer. Good thought though.

I don't think passengers give a fork about a few seconds difference - what they do think about is the degradation in the quality of the trains and service from a high of the HSTs to the low of the IET 5h1tachis

I agree they could be better, although as someone who travels 2 or 3 times a week on peak services all I want is a seat with legroom, the ability to get a drink and a nice airy environment. I love HSTs however it feels too rammed in due to the blue colour scene and I prefer the IETs when it comes to being airy. HSTs win with catering and seat comfort though.

 

[JDEunos]

I saw some dinomination of 800 in Leeds yesterday at around 5:15pm. Unliverired, somi would imaging it was on test from LKX?

Only just caught the front of it!

 

[Geogregor]

The ride quality isn't that great either, with my laptop and other bits on the table constantly being thrown around even at low speeds (such as Newton Abbot to Totnes which is mostly 45 - 60mph)

To be honest the ride quality at high speeds is low on most British trains when compared to continental railways. I'm always surprised how much I'm "thrown around" on the trains in the UK. Try walking in the carriage or using the loo. This year I took trains to Totnes (twice) and I also traveled on LNER to Newcastle and York. In both cases ride quality was quite low. I won't even mention some shorter distance trains...

Is it due to track curvature? Different geometry of the points? If yes I won't expect new trains to offer much of an improvement in this area...

 

[jimm]

I try to avoid bad language, even if expressed indirectly, but I agree with your views.
Nothing wrong with discussion about technical details, these can be interesting, but the average passenger does not care about marginal differences in journey times.
Very few passengers consider standing on a 5 car DMU to be an improvement over sitting on an 8 car HST.
Very few think that no buffet is an improvement over having a buffet.

It is now over a year since the downgrading started.
What happened to the original promise that all rush hour trains to/from Paddington would be full length ? Single 5 car units have been a regular feature on busy services.
What happened to the original promise that 5+5 car trains would have a trolley in each portion ?

It is all starting to look very Voyager like, these were too short when introduced, and are still too short years later, despite all the assurances that they would be fine.

You keep making this claim that short-forming is regular, routine, etc.

It is not - yes it happens occasionally but as I and others keep pointing out (and you unsurprisingly continue to ignore since it doesn't fit with your claims), short-forms have been happening for years as a result of HST failures - just that people beyond the Thames Valley/Oxford/Cotswold area tended not to know it was going on, as passengers there were the ones who ended up riding on a 180 or Turbo instead of an HST.

Unless you are going to start keeping a log of GWR IET short-forming that you can share with the world in order to demonstrate the genuinely regular or routine nature of it (as per the dictionary definitions of those words) please stop repeating it on the same basis as you drone on about buffets - that if you say it often enough, here and on another forum, your opinions and claims will somehow become established as fact

 

[JN114]

What happened to the original promise that all rush hour trains to/from Paddington would be full length ? Single 5 car units have been a regular feature on busy services.
What happened to the original promise that 5+5 car trains would have a trolley in each portion ?

It’s been done to death but I’ll reiterate again.

Every service, previously timetabled as an HST that has gone over to IET operation, is diagrammed to either be 9 or 10 coaches. That is exactly what was promised - and the sad part is you well know that’s what that promise meant.

Similarly catering staff provision on IETs. Again, all 10 cars are timetabled to have at least 4 catering staff on board - 2 front and 2 back.

Unit availability remains poor for a number of reasons, so yes, there are some short formations - just as single 2 or 3 car Turbos frequently replaced HSTs on Oxford and North Cotswold services when HST availability was poor. It’s just that inability of Turbos to cover Swansea/Bristol/West of England services shielded the majority of long distance passengers from the problem. Nowadays the number of Turbos at Paddington in the peak is in single digits, so stock shortages have to be managed differently. There are some who suggest perhaps Great Western should start allowing peak services to be cancelled rather than splitting 10 cars into 2x 5s and running a full, albeit short-formed service - I’m not convinced that would actually make a difference to crowding - Hitachi need to start getting their act together. While the 5 car fleet was being used at 100% availability occasional uncovered diagrams were excusable - exams and so on had to be done. Now with the 5 car 802 deliveries coming apace and several more 5 cars delivered than diagrams there’s no good reason for them not to be hitting 100% diagram coverage. Similarly I don’t think Great Western have been aggressive enough with customer host recruitment - they’ve nearly doubled their catering staff requirement, but have been slow to recruit new staff and provide sufficient accommodations for new starters. Heads have already been banged together on this matter, so improvements should be seen in the coming months.

Finally of course we’re still nowhere near the final IET provision - only a little over half the fleet have been delivered, and the majority of units delivered so far are 5 cars. There are various reasons why building the shorter units first is better - a practice completed over every mixed-length fleet introduction I can recall. 10 cars are currently diagrammed on services that in the grand scheme of things will be 9 car services.

Bottom line is while they have been in service for a year now, we’re still very much in the introduction phase. Things as they are now are not indicative of the final deployment - there’s a complete timetable recast to come yet.

 

[northernbelle]

You keep making this claim that short-forming is regular, routine, etc.

It is not - yes it happens occasionally but as I and others keep pointing out (and you unsurprisingly continue to ignore since it doesn't fit with your claims), short-forms have been happening for years as a result of HST failures - just that people beyond the Thames Valley/Oxford/Cotswold area tended not to know it was going on, as passengers there were the ones who ended up riding on a 180 or Turbo instead of an HST.

Unless you are going to start keeping a log of GWR IET short-forming that you can share with the world in order to demonstrate the genuinely regular or routine nature of it (as per the dictionary definitions of those words) please stop repeating it on the same basis as you drone on about buffets - that if you say it often enough, here and on another forum, your opinions and claims will somehow become established as fact

We are also seeing increased instances of a 2 x 5 car IET having to be split in two so that one unit can cover a non-available HST, so although at first glance it looks like it's IET availability causing the use of 5 car units, other fleet availability is also placing a requirement on the IET fleet.

 

[irish_rail]

You keep making this claim that short-forming is regular, routine, etc.

It is not - yes it happens occasionally but as I and others keep pointing out (and you unsurprisingly continue to ignore since it doesn't fit with your claims), short-forms have been happening for years as a result of HST failures - just that people beyond the Thames Valley/Oxford/Cotswold area tended not to know it was going on, as passengers there were the ones who ended up riding on a 180 or Turbo instead of an HST.

Unless you are going to start keeping a log of GWR IET short-forming that you can share with the world in order to demonstrate the genuinely regular or routine nature of it (as per the dictionary definitions of those words) please stop repeating it on the same basis as you drone on about buffets - that if you say it often enough, here and on another forum, your opinions and claims will somehow become established as fact

Well short forms ARE a common occurrence.
Yester day, of the 3 diagrams that see IETs to the southwest, at least 2 of the diagrams were short formed. Just because the cotswold line can take priority when it comes to set shortages that doesn't paint a picture on other routes and I can assure u as someone who actually drives them they are FREQUENTLY short formed on the routes to Devon and Cornwall.

 

[gallafent]

They are both capable of the same.

My assertion is that if an 802 is capable and 800 can be made capable if it isn't already.

Those two statements do not have even remotely the same meaning.

 

[gallafent]

No. [etc.]

Many thanks for all that detail, a useful reference for debunking the many (both overpositive and overnegative) assertions that get made quite a lot ………

 

[158820]

There is only 1 5 instead 10 diagram today (as of now). Yesterday there was 3 IET diagrams short formed as a result of service disruption issues on Sunday.

 

[broadgage]

Well short forms ARE a common occurrence.
Yester day, of the 3 diagrams that see IETs to the southwest, at least 2 of the diagrams were short formed. Just because the cotswold line can take priority when it comes to set shortages that doesn't paint a picture on other routes and I can assure u as someone who actually drives them they are FREQUENTLY short formed on the routes to Devon and Cornwall.

That seems to be the general view of ordinary passengers, interesting to read confirmation from someone who drives them.
My experience has been mainly of services between Cardiff and London, where short formations abound, sometimes two or three consecutive short formed trains.
Most passengers would consider that short formations are "regular" despite assertations to the contrary.

I have no reason to doubt the statement that all services previously operated by HSTs are diagrammed to be full length IETs, however the average passenger judges the success of the new trains by what length train actually arrives, and NOT by what was planned.
Catering likewise, the average passenger judges the trolley on whether it arrives in a timely fashion, or at all and NOT on how many catering staff were planned to be on board.

Likewise, I have no reason to doubt the statement about Cotswold line services previously bearing the brunt of HST failures. However the passenger standing to Bristol or Cardiff on a new shorter train wont find this very interesting, all they know is that the new train is shorter than an HST on a recurring basis.

 

[HowardGWR]

However the passenger standing to Bristol or Cardiff on a new shorter train wont find this very interesting, all they know is that the new train is shorter than an HST on a recurring basis.

Is there evidence, beyond anecdotal, of actual standing on these short forms or are they just 'cosy'? One sometimes sees people standing on trains when other coaches in the train are not full. Has there been any reclassifying of first class on these short form occasions?

 

[reddragon]

Time for a poll, HST versus IET

 

[59CosG95]

I saw some dinomination of 800 in Leeds yesterday at around 5:15pm. Unliverired, somi would imaging it was on test from LKX?

Only just caught the front of it!

Probably one of the LNER-bound units, most likely 800201, 800202 or 801101.

 

[jayah]

Those two statements do not have even remotely the same meaning.

The 800 and 802 are basically the same train with different software settings, seat covers and perhaps a larger fuel tank. Software settings can be changed.

As I have shown 800s and 802s comfortably keeping HST times in the West it is not the most significant point in any case.

 

[jayah]

You keep making this claim that short-forming is regular, routine, etc.

It is not - yes it happens occasionally but as I and others keep pointing out (and you unsurprisingly continue to ignore since it doesn't fit with your claims), short-forms have been happening for years as a result of HST failures - just that people beyond the Thames Valley/Oxford/Cotswold area tended not to know it was going on, as passengers there were the ones who ended up riding on a 180 or Turbo instead of an HST.

Unless you are going to start keeping a log of GWR IET short-forming that you can share with the world in order to demonstrate the genuinely regular or routine nature of it (as per the dictionary definitions of those words) please stop repeating it on the same basis as you drone on about buffets - that if you say it often enough, here and on another forum, your opinions and claims will somehow become established as fact

It is a pretty pointless exercise in semantics.

Unless the dictionary definition is quantitative about the meaning of those terms it won't advance the debate.

As some of the short formations aren't on Journey Check it is hard to see how a definitive statistic could be arrived at either.

So it boils down to you arguing with others about whether it is occasional or frequent / often.

Failing that you can always argue it is down delays in delivery and it will get better at some unknown point in the future or nobody said it would never happen, or better to have half a train than none.

 

[northernbelle]

Is there evidence, beyond anecdotal, of actual standing on these short forms or are they just 'cosy'? One sometimes sees people standing on trains when other coaches in the train are not full. Has there been any reclassifying of first class on these short form occasions?

I am on the 1203 Paddington to Penzance right now. It has 5 coaches vice 10.

Everybody is seated and catering is being provided in both classes. No seat reservations or Pullman available though.

I'm not suggesting this for the 1203 PNZ, but there are plenty of headcodes on the Bristol and South Wales route where a 5 car is appropriate.