GWR Class 800

[Sirgerbil]

All 800s and 802s are now restricted to diesel traction only due to concerns about VCB (Vacuum Circuit Beaker) operation.

Going well then... Good thing DfT changed the order so all the GWR sets had diesels.

When was this decided? Saw a 800 running on wires around midnight.

 

[Clarence Yard]

As from this morning. There was a concern overnight that the VCB is causing roof damage so it has been diesel only while Hitachi do a check. The restriction should come off tonight.

After last weeks incident with 802016, Hitachi are now not taking any chances.

 

[43096]

Vacuum Circuit Beaker? Perhaps Dr Bunsen Honeydew was part of the project team.

OK, next time I'll just type VCB rather than spelling it out (or attempting to...) for the benefit of those who might not know what it stands for.

 

[TractiveEffort]

Most sets now have the diesel only restriction lifted now.

 

[Wychwood93]

Most sets now have the diesel only restriction lifted now.

800309 hummed along from BPW to RDG on the 1L76 Swansea-PAD. Managed 125 at Little Somerford - good - then checked to 36 Wootton Bassett West. I have not checked RTT to see what the cause might have been. The TSR 85 at Wantage Road does not help - it isn't there for that! Checked down to around 38 at Milton (Milepost 55) and then a mild burst of activity, given that we were on diesel, with a pleasant 102 through Tilehurst. I missed a negative connex down to home - no probs - one can only hope! Life...…….. I could mention a couple of journeys earlier in the day. Maybe not.

 

[cambsy]

Tuesday 23rd Oct had 802101, 12.03 Paddington-Penzance, far as St Austell, am finding their performance to now be on a par with the HST, we left Reading about 4 mins late, running to Exeter non stop in just over 96 mins with quite a few TSR’s in place, so about 3 mins over schedule, which comparable with HST, arrived Exeter about 7 mins left, with shorter station stops than booked and recovery time, we clawed back time, to being 1 minute late arriving St Austell, so all in all a good run, did better than a few HST’s that day. From what i have heard 802 101 and the other 802’s from Japan are proving more reliable than the Pistoria built ones, 802101 certainly seemed to be in fine fettle.

 

[59CosG95]

OK, next time I'll just type VCB rather than spelling it out (or attempting to...) for the benefit of those who might not know what it stands for.

No quarrel with that! I wasn't too sure what it stood for myself, but I did have an inkling.

 

[williamn]

Just had my first IET experience. My main gripe is lack of a buffet, particularly as the trolley was cash only and never made it to my seat between London and Bristol in any case.

 

[mralexn]

I travelled on one yesterday, 05:53 Plymouth > Paddington and 20:06 Paddington > Plymouth. I guess by now it's just personal opinion, however I do find the seats, especially in standard class, to be very hard. The ride quality isn't that great either, with my laptop and other bits on the table constantly being thrown around even at low speeds (such as Newton Abbot to Totnes which is mostly 45 - 60mph)

Again, this is probably a matter of opinion, but I find the lighting to be quite bright and harsh, especially at night, compared with the auto dimming lights in the first class on their HST's.

In first class, it's the small things that do really make a difference, for example, not having curtains, or any kind of carpeting on the bottom half of the walls really does make it look very basic. There does also seem to be a tonne of announcements, both automated, and then live, I did notice as well that the customer hosts kept trying to contact each other via the PA system, saying things like "Can person X in the front set answer the next IC call"

Finally, whilst yes under the wires they are very fast, I noticed that from Reading onwards towards Plymouth we were really struggling to do anything like line speed and as a result kept loosing time between stations. I don't know if this is a common issue, but particularly Westbury > Tiverton Parkway we barely seemed to go about 75 -80mph where as the line speed for that section is normally 100 or around that. (Note the 21:06 behind us was a HST and didn't seem to loose any time, arriving in to Plymouth 4 early.

All in all though the journey was pleasant enough, the guards seem to like working them, although the amount of staff required now is incredible. 1X Guard, 1X Driver, 4X Customer Hosts, compared to the days of old when it was 1X Guard, 1X Guard, 2X Customer hosts (if you were lucky)

Finally, to end on a good note, it looks like LNER are going to start slowly introducing IEP seats on their 225 sets! (: (Credit to the picture to John35069164 on twitter)

 

[jayah]

I travelled on one yesterday, 05:53 Plymouth > Paddington and 20:06 Paddington > Plymouth. I guess by now it's just personal opinion, however I do find the seats, especially in standard class, to be very hard. The ride quality isn't that great either, with my laptop and other bits on the table constantly being thrown around even at low speeds (such as Newton Abbot to Totnes which is mostly 45 - 60mph)

Again, this is probably a matter of opinion, but I find the lighting to be quite bright and harsh, especially at night, compared with the auto dimming lights in the first class on their HST's.

In first class, it's the small things that do really make a difference, for example, not having curtains, or any kind of carpeting on the bottom half of the walls really does make it look very basic. There does also seem to be a tonne of announcements, both automated, and then live, I did notice as well that the customer hosts kept trying to contact each other via the PA system, saying things like "Can person X in the front set answer the next IC call"

Finally, whilst yes under the wires they are very fast, I noticed that from Reading onwards towards Plymouth we were really struggling to do anything like line speed and as a result kept loosing time between stations. I don't know if this is a common issue, but particularly Westbury > Tiverton Parkway we barely seemed to go about 75 -80mph where as the line speed for that section is normally 100 or around that. (Note the 21:06 behind us was a HST and didn't seem to loose any time, arriving in to Plymouth 4 early.

All in all though the journey was pleasant enough, the guards seem to like working them, although the amount of staff required now is incredible. 1X Guard, 1X Driver, 4X Customer Hosts, compared to the days of old when it was 1X Guard, 1X Guard, 2X Customer hosts (if you were lucky)

Finally, to end on a good note, it looks like LNER are going to start slowly introducing IEP seats on their 225 sets! (: (Credit to the picture to John35069164 on twitter)

They are certainly more than capable of keeping time, you don't see many HSTs running like 802101 this morning:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C47814/2018/10/27/advanced

 

[gallafent]

They are certainly more than capable of keeping time, you don't see many HSTs running like 802101 this morning:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C47814/2018/10/27/advanced

… aha, but (with reference to GWR Intercity Express Train (IEP) initial diagrams & allocations), it seems we need to be careful not to assume that a class 800 (this thread) performs as well as a class 802 (your example). Interesting!

 

[404250]

Currently on a rammed (all classes) 5 car Bristol to Paddington. Advice was to get off at Swindon to get 9 car 15 mins behind. People got off, but loads got on so still full and standing. Terrible idea having so many 2 X 5 trains with extra staff requirements and often run as 5. Should have ordered 50% more 9 car trains and fewer 5 car.

 

[jayah]

… aha, but (with reference to GWR Intercity Express Train (IEP) initial diagrams & allocations), it seems we need to be careful not to assume that a class 800 (this thread) performs as well as a class 802 (your example). Interesting!

They are both capable of the same.
The earlier post didn't seem specific about whether it was an 800 or 802 but more likely to be the latter.

 

[Dave1987]

Go to Paddington to pick up a relative. One class 800 failed, others the reservations system has failed. No wonder they aren’t setting the reliability tables alight. Remind me why they are so hideously expensive again?

Ow and arrivals are only 5 cars and absolutely heaving.

 

[ainsworth74]

Remind me why they are so hideously expensive again?

Because the DfT chose a procurement process that would lead to an expensive outcome?

 

[Envoy]

When I got off one on Wednesday, I had to change to a local train - which turned out to be a 1 coach 153. I think even that had more comfortable seats than the IET. However, I do the the fact that you can lower the blinds just low enough to block out the sun - should it be shining in your eyes. Goodness knows why people who want to look at screens sit on the sunny side of the train when seats are available on the shady side?

 

[Wychwood93]

When I got off one on Wednesday, I had to change to a local train - which turned out to be a 1 coach 153. I think even that had more comfortable seats than the IET. However, I do the the fact that you can lower the blinds just low enough to block out the sun - should it be shining in your eyes. Goodness knows why people who want to look at screens sit on the sunny side of the train when seats are available on the shady side?

Agreed. I am a taller person and like to look out - should someone in front of me decide to tug the blind down, without asking, or even looking to see if somebody else may be a touch inconvenienced, my arm will stop the blind going down any further than I consider reasonable. Yet to have any comments or complaints - both in the UK and abroad.

 

[Wychwood93]

They are both capable of the same.
The earlier post didn't seem specific about whether it was an 800 or 802 but more likely to be the latter.

An 802 as I recall - they have more 'grunt' than the 800.

 

[samuelmorris]

They are both capable of the same.
The earlier post didn't seem specific about whether it was an 800 or 802 but more likely to be the latter.

In theory yes but as far as I'm aware in practice that still isn't the case.

When I got off one on Wednesday, I had to change to a local train - which turned out to be a 1 coach 153. I think even that had more comfortable seats than the IET

But only if you're shorter than 6' as the legroom on them is dreadful. Otherwise I would agree.

 

[jayah]

In theory yes but as far as I'm aware in practice that still isn't the case.

800032 kept perfect time until the wedged conditions on a 5 car train got the better of it at Castle Cary.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C46062/2018/10/28/advanced

 

[jyte]

35L....well I guess at least they got delay repay...

 

[387star]

Do all units have the revised seat covers yet?

 

[Siemens Staines]

35L....well I guess at least they got delay repay...

Not for GWR HSS journeys that are less than 60 late
https://www.gwr.com/help-and-support/refunds-and-compensation/delay-compensation

 

[Class37.4]

Go to Paddington to pick up a relative. One class 800 failed, others the reservations system has failed. No wonder they aren’t setting the reliability tables alight. Remind me why they are so hideously expensive again?

Ow and arrivals are only 5 cars and absolutely heaving.

Oh how much more Diesel running are the 800 having to do thanks to Network Fail? Of course some shouldn’t even be bi-mode at all.

 

[gallafent]

It feels unlikely that both of the following two quotes are true. It would be interesting to know which one is … (or, if they both are, why it is that the 800s are in general being driving in such a way as to make them perform worse than the 802s, if they are in fact equally capable.

They are both capable of the same.

Yes we are recording much better performance from the completely 'unmuzzled' 802's compared to the 800's in both electric and diesel modes.

Is the acceleration limit of the DfT IETs (800s) also applied on those independently procured by/for GWR (802s), then? Other posts suggest that one of the key performance differences between the two is that it is not.

The earlier post didn't seem specific about whether it was an 800 or 802 but more likely to be the latter.

True, but why would you say it's more likely to be the latter? There are far more 800s in service than 802s, at the moment, aren't there? The poor performance of those services running on diesel, in combination with railperf's observations, suggests that perhaps it's more likely to have been an 800. Clearly in the end the far south-west services are set to be more likely to be 802s.

 

[jayah]

It feels unlikely that both of the following two quotes are true. It would be interesting to know which one is … (or, if they both are, why it is that the 800s are in general being driving in such a way as to make them perform worse than the 802s, if they are in fact equally capable.





Is the acceleration limit of the DfT IETs (800s) also applied on those independently procured by/for GWR (802s), then? Other posts suggest that one of the key performance differences between the two is that it is not.



True, but why would you say it's more likely to be the latter? There are far more 800s in service than 802s, at the moment, aren't there? The poor performance of those services running on diesel, in combination with railperf's observations, suggests that perhaps it's more likely to have been an 800. Clearly in the end the far south-west services are set to be more likely to be 802s.

That is the route they were built for and while there aren't as many of the 802 there aren't that many diagrams to the West either.

Since I have showed a schedule that was an 800 and that kept time in every section from Plymouth to Castle Cary so they are certainly capable.

 

[gallafent]

ince I have showed a schedule that was an 800 and that kept time in every section from Plymouth to Castle Cary so they are certainly capable.

That does not indicate that they are equally capable, which was your original assertion.

 

[jimm]

It feels unlikely that both of the following two quotes are true. It would be interesting to know which one is … (or, if they both are, why it is that the 800s are in general being driving in such a way as to make them perform worse than the 802s, if they are in fact equally capable.

Is the acceleration limit of the DfT IETs (800s) also applied on those independently procured by/for GWR (802s), then? Other posts suggest that one of the key performance differences between the two is that it is not.

True, but why would you say it's more likely to be the latter? There are far more 800s in service than 802s, at the moment, aren't there? The poor performance of those services running on diesel, in combination with railperf's observations, suggests that perhaps it's more likely to have been an 800. Clearly in the end the far south-west services are set to be more likely to be 802s.

What exactly do you mean by poor performance? By comparison with what? The 800s were never intended to perform like an HST on diesel power.

First Group deliberately specified the 802s to perform slightly differently due to the much greater amount of diesel running they will have to do, and the Devon banks, and even then they're not expected to hammer along for mile after mile at 125mph on diesel either.

In places like the Cotswold Line, where they were always intended to work on diesel, the 800s do very nicely thank you, with some very sharp running noted on occasion, thanks in part to the initial burst of acceleration helping on a route with station stops every eight minutes or so.

In the case of the services referred to by mralexn that seems to have sparked this discussion, at no point in its journey was the IET ever more than 3 minutes late and reached Plymouth on time, according to RTT. The HST behind it was also a couple of minutes down at various points. Hardly suggestive of some fundamental performance differential when it comes to what is needed on the route to the West Country.

 

[gallafent]

What exactly do you mean by poor performance?

In the first case, less rapid acceleration in both electric and diesel modes, and a lower balancing speed in diesel mode. In the second, an inability to keep to HST schedules on sections of line for which the plan was always that they should be running in diesel mode and replacing HSTs.

By comparison with what?

In the first case, a class 802. In the second, an HST (2+7 I guess).

The 800s were never intended to perform like an HST on diesel power.

We're talking about comparing measured performance, and I'm not sure how “intention” is relevant to that.

I don't have the data myself, but defer for the “measured performance comparing class 800 with class 802” to railperf and cite the post GWR Intercity Express Train (IEP) initial diagrams & allocations. No idea how much more detail (s)he can make available.

Re the “unable to keep to HST schedules”, this appears to be anecdotally reported many times on these forums (though may now be “solved” by the (partial?) “demuzzling” of the class 800s' diesel generators).

On both I have no particular view, but I'm interested in data and measurement, and there seem to be some contradictory statements made here that it would be nice to resolve!

 

[jimm]

In the first case, less rapid acceleration in both electric and diesel modes, and a lower balancing speed in diesel mode. In the second, an inability to keep to HST schedules on sections of line for which the plan was always that they should be running in diesel mode and replacing HSTs.

Such as where? All the moaning was about how the 800s did not perform when running on diesel on 125mph sections of line like an HST does - which was never the intention or expectation, had electrification gone as planned. So it's hardly surprising that they don't and, fingers crossed, in a few weeks' time, almost all the 125mph passed bits of the GWML will be using 25kv traction anyway.

As I say, on the Cotswold Line, one of the places the 800s were always going to work on diesel all the time, with a maximum permitted speed of 100mph, they go very nicely thank you.

In the first case, a class 802. In the second, an HST (2+7 I guess).

So we're reduced to guesswork. I thought it had already been clearly demonstrated, as you indicated, that the 802s have a different acceleration curve from the 800s - which isn't a surprise since the 800 settings are a compromise to compensate for the need for diesel running for a long distance at 100mph+ that are being used at the behest of the DfT, while the other is what GWR wants on the 802s that it specified after analysing the results of a lot of test running of various traction system and acceleration settings to get the best out of the trains.

We're talking about comparing measured performance, and I'm not sure how “intention” is relevant to that.

mralexn's comments were not about measured performance, just a bit of casual observation and assertion about what the IET was or was not doing that didn't even give the full picture of the runs by it and the HST back from London that evening.