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43096

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You keep making this claim that short-forming is regular, routine, etc.

It is not - yes it happens occasionally but as I and others keep pointing out (and you unsurprisingly continue to ignore since it doesn't fit with your claims), short-forms have been happening for years as a result of HST failures - just that people beyond the Thames Valley/Oxford/Cotswold area tended not to know it was going on, as passengers there were the ones who ended up riding on a 180 or Turbo instead of an HST.

Unless you are going to start keeping a log of GWR IET short-forming that you can share with the world in order to demonstrate the genuinely regular or routine nature of it (as per the dictionary definitions of those words) please stop repeating it on the same basis as you drone on about buffets - that if you say it often enough, here and on another forum, your opinions and claims will somehow become established as fact
It is routine. You are in cloud cuckoo land if you think otherwise. As of now GWR are showing 4 short forms for the rest of the day as 5 vice 10, which is one set short.

Yesterday there was at least two 5-vice-10s, a 5-vice-9 and an 8-vice-10 (so HST ersatzzug). I make that short of 3 5-cars and one 9-car.
 
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northernbelle

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It is routine. You are in cloud cuckoo land if you think otherwise. As of now GWR are showing 4 short forms for the rest of the day as 5 vice 10, which is one set short.

Yesterday there was at least two 5-vice-10s, a 5-vice-9 and an 8-vice-10 (so HST ersatzzug). I make that short of 3 5-cars and one 9-car.

Not necessarily. Some 5 cars have materialised in order to cover HST shortages- so a 10 car getting split in half resulting in 5 vice 10 and a 5 vice 8 short forms.

The problem is a mixture of IET unavailability and HST unavailability.

I also keep seeing 9 vice 10 described as 'shortformed' which is a nonsense given the seating capacity is the same.
 

43096

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Not necessarily. Some 5 cars have materialised in order to cover HST shortages- so a 10 car getting split in half resulting in 5 vice 10 and a 5 vice 8 short forms.

The problem is a mixture of IET unavailability and HST unavailability.

I also keep seeing 9 vice 10 described as 'shortformed' which is a nonsense given the seating capacity is the same.
No HST replacements showing yesterday or today.
 

cactustwirly

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It is routine. You are in cloud cuckoo land if you think otherwise. As of now GWR are showing 4 short forms for the rest of the day as 5 vice 10, which is one set short.

Yesterday there was at least two 5-vice-10s, a 5-vice-9 and an 8-vice-10 (so HST ersatzzug). I make that short of 3 5-cars and one 9-car.

So it's about 3 diagrams out of about 25...
So in the grand scheme of things, a very small proportion of trains are shortformed, not as widespread as people on here make out.
 

43096

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So it's about 3 diagrams out of about 25...
So in the grand scheme of things, a very small proportion of trains are shortformed, not as widespread as people on here make out.
That’s alright then. One set short today and it means the 1730 Padd-Taunton is short formed. Not like that’s a heavily loaded peak train is it?

All very well sitting there saying “it’s only 3 diagrams”, it’s a bit different when you’re a paying punter for one of the affected trains.
 

FGW_DID

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As of the 13.30 update today there are two 80x diagrams uncovered:

The first means 9v10 on three services and 9v5 on two services.
The second means 5v10 on 5 services.

@broadgage. Would you rather run a complete 10 car and cancel some services completely or split the 10 and have 2 5v10 to cover everything?
 

WelshBluebird

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Being a bit harsh here I accept, but from a passengers point of view it does not matter why a service is 5 cars instead of 8, 9 or 10. It only matters that it is.
All a passenger really cares about is that they were told by GWR that peak services and those which need the capacity would be 9 or 10 cars, but in reality at least some of the time those services are actually ending up as just 5 cars.

Now, those of us on this forum can discuss that it is only a temporary thing because not all the units are in use and some are having to cover HST's, but do you really think the general public cares or actually believes that it will be temporary? Certainly I don't blame anyone for not believing a word GWR, Network Rail or government say about the GWML electrification and new rolling stock considering how turbulent the last few years have been.
 

158820

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As of the 13.30 update today there are two 80x diagrams uncovered:

The first means 9v10 on three services and 9v5 on two services.
The second means 5v10 on 5 services.

@broadgage. Would you rather run a complete 10 car and cancel some services completely or split the 10 and have 2 5v10 to cover everything?
Only the 2nd 1 is appearing on journeycheck at the moment.
 

northernbelle

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Being a bit harsh here I accept, but from a passengers point of view it does not matter why a service is 5 cars instead of 8, 9 or 10. It only matters that it is.
All a passenger really cares about is that they were told by GWR that peak services and those which need the capacity would be 9 or 10 cars, but in reality at least some of the time those services are actually ending up as just 5 cars.

Now, those of us on this forum can discuss that it is only a temporary thing because not all the units are in use and some are having to cover HST's, but do you really think the general public cares or actually believes that it will be temporary? Certainly I don't blame anyone for not believing a word GWR, Network Rail or government say about the GWML electrification and new rolling stock considering how turbulent the last few years have been.

Conversely, there are a good many services on which a 5 car could materialise and it actually doesn't cause a problem.
 

broadgage

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As of the 13.30 update today there are two 80x diagrams uncovered:

The first means 9v10 on three services and 9v5 on two services.
The second means 5v10 on 5 services.

@broadgage. Would you rather run a complete 10 car and cancel some services completely or split the 10 and have 2 5v10 to cover everything?

Two half length trains are generally preferable to one cancelled and one full length.
That however is not the issue. The problem is not insufficient new 5 car DMUs are available to run a full service of full length trains.

No matter what excuses are offered, a great many HSTs are in practice replaced by single 5 car DMUs
Statements like-
"All former HST operated services are diagrammed to be full length"
"Single units are actually uncommon"
"It is due to the Oxford and Cotswolds services now being better"
"A half length train is better than no train"

Are all of no consolation to someone standing on a new shorter train when they would have got a seat on an HST.

Prior to the downgrading inter city services to mainly shorter DMUs, I forecast that single 5 car operation would be a regular feature. A year after the introduction, single 5 car operation is a regular feature, often with a dozen short forms a day.
 

Clarence Yard

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I feel the inference that GWR is deliberately shortforming trains is the cause of the angst here. That was mentioned here over a year ago as something GWR would do by choice and it certainly isn't the case.

In some ways having 5 cars has enabled GWR to cover uncovered Main line diagrams with a train, even if it is a shorter one. But it has also enabled Hitachi to get out of jail by sending out shorter formations than what was expected of them. Of course if the train was late on the designated depot the previous night for any TOC/NR reason, they don't pay a bean in penalty payments.

Getting the full fleet in service will help but, contractually, it is too easy for Hitachi to send out short formations, especially when those penalty payments are commuted in the first few years.
 

WelshBluebird

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I feel the inference that GWR is deliberately shortforming trains is the cause of the angst here. That was mentioned here over a year ago as something GWR would do by choice and it certainly isn't the case.

In some ways having 5 cars has enabled GWR to cover uncovered Main line diagrams with a train, even if it is a shorter one. But it has also enabled Hitachi to get out of jail by sending out shorter formations than what was expected of them. Of course if the train was late on the designated depot the previous night for any TOC/NR reason, they don't pay a bean in penalty payments.

Getting the full fleet in service will help but, contractually, it is too easy for Hitachi to send out short formations, especially when those penalty payments are commuted in the first few years.

At the end of the day, it is GWR that deal with the travelling public. If I have an issue with something I buy, my port of call (and the company legally required to deal with my issue) is the retailer, even if the issue is the manufacturers fault. No difference here.

And that is ignoring the fact that GWR seemed like they were trying to take credit for the investment in electrification and new rolling stock a year or two ago. If they want to do that, then they should also accept the criticisms even when it may not be their direct fault.

Out of curiosity with Hitachi, are you saying that they don't pay any penalties if they send out shorter formations as long as they send out a train? That can't be right surely?
 

JN114

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Out of curiosity with Hitachi, are you saying that they don't pay any penalties if they send out shorter formations as long as they send out a train? That can't be right surely?

As I understand it - and it should be noted the fine details of the contract are commercially sensitive so this is only from office hearsay - Agility are currently in a pseudo “holiday period” built into the contract designed to not overly penalise them for the inevitable teething issues new rolling stock has.

ClarenceYard and WelshBluebird have hit the nail squarely on the head of both sides of the argument for me here.

The frustration of the discussion on here is that every time it turns down a more technical avenue, or some news about deliveries or similar - some kind of tangible new discussion - someone else will chime in with a three line trip report where they didn’t like the seats, and then the usual suspects on both sides will bandwagon onto their respective sides of the argument ad nauseum. And yes everyone’s opinion is valid - 100% so - but the animosity it’s causing in this thread is lamentable.

CY is right - the inference is often that the current short forms are what GWR want, that couldn’t be further from the truth from my perspective. But it is a reality that we have to currently have to deal with and accept. On the other side of the coin WelshBluebird is right - members here can offer insight as to where the issue really lies, but that’s of little comfort to Joe Public. As one of those trying to reassure members that today isn’t indicative of some tomorrow I’m acutely aware of that fact - but at the end of the day this is principally an enthusiasts’ discussion forum. Members should either already know better than “it’s GWRs train so it’s their fault”, or at least be a little more accepting of that once they’re aware of that fact. My responses here are accordingly geared more to that audience - If they want the version of the story intended for Joe Public then they should make contact with GWR’s various contact methods and social media presence.
 

jimm

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It is a pretty pointless exercise in semantics.

Unless the dictionary definition is quantitative about the meaning of those terms it won't advance the debate.

The definitions of what the words regular and routine mean are plain enough:

Regular

adjective


1. arranged in or constituting a constant or definite pattern, especially with the same space between individual instances

2. recurring at uniform intervals.

Routine

noun

    1. a sequence of actions regularly followed.

      adjective
    1. performed as part of a regular procedure rather than for a special reason.

Random, unplanned short-forming of IET formations, for reasons of stock not being available from the depot, in-service failures, or whatever else, does not conform to a constant or definite pattern, recur at uniform intervals, follow a regular sequence, or happen as part of a regular procedure, rather than for a special reason.

There's nothing semantic about it.

But no, it probably won't advance the debate, because the usual suspects will doubtless keep on claiming quite the opposite, no matter what anyone says to the contrary, no matter what explanations have been given of the bigger picture and no matter what individual circumstances apply in each case of a short-formed service.

However, that doesn't mean that their posts should just be given a free ride here, does it?

Otherwise people might end up with the kind of impression anyone watching a certain Channel 5 programme on Monday evening might get - that Paddington and the Western route generally are just one big disaster zone, with crisis upon crisis, where it is impossible to make a journey by train.

And if people want to talk about IET deliveries, what is the status of 800001 and 002?

If they are still not available for passenger traffic, then that means the margin for maintenance cover for the five-car fleet still remains wafer-thin, which can't help when it comes to trying to avoid short-forming.
 

Mintona

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Just come down to Swindon on electric for the first time (albeit through the diesel bit at Didcot of course). It was nice to have a decent speed up through Uffington and Bourton again. And despite being held up behind the Oxford train at Cholsey, we still arrived into Swindon around 3 early. These trains are rather good on electric.

And the seat reservations worked too which was nice.
 

Railperf

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From what i can discern - the biggest issues here seem to be the following:
1. Slower delivery of completed trains
2. Greater amount of teething issues with the trains than foreseen - taking longer to fix
3. Crewing issues - not having enough drivers trained in electric mode etc/ not enough train managers causing 5 cars out of a 10 car set to be locked out.
4. HST's, Turbo's and 180's being promised to other operators way too early. This should have been dependent on issues 1 and 2 reaching a satisfactory service level.

The secondary issues seem to revolve around perceived comfort levels and concern that some former 8 coach HST diagrams will now be covered by 5-car trains with less seats.

And with regards to journey times - there were promises of substantial time savings -up to 14 minutes IIRC. What is not clear is whether there we will see anymore than a few minutes shaved off between Paddington and Bristol, and Paddington to Cornwall by virtue of the superior electric performance.
Of course it would be nice to have faster journeys - but it isn't the be all and end all. A slightly slower but punctual service - that has enough seats - is better than one that promises quicker journeys but is frequently late and formed of fewer coaches than expected.

All this is having an impact on capacity - fewer seats than before. The question is how long is it likely to be before there are enough 800's delivered and running reliably enough to resolve this?
 
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HowardGWR

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I think many less-educated folk use 'regularly' when they mean 'frequently'. The discussion about short-forming has been about how frequently it has been the case that trains are sent out short-formed.

Not many times, as a percentage, but a significant percentage, was my impression of the evidence presented so far.
 

jayah

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The definitions of what the words regular and routine mean are plain enough:





Random, unplanned short-forming of IET formations, for reasons of stock not being available from the depot, in-service failures, or whatever else, does not conform to a constant or definite pattern, recur at uniform intervals, follow a regular sequence, or happen as part of a regular procedure, rather than for a special reason.

There's nothing semantic about it.

But no, it probably won't advance the debate, because the usual suspects will doubtless keep on claiming quite the opposite, no matter what anyone says to the contrary, no matter what explanations have been given of the bigger picture and no matter what individual circumstances apply in each case of a short-formed service.

However, that doesn't mean that their posts should just be given a free ride here, does it?

Otherwise people might end up with the kind of impression anyone watching a certain Channel 5 programme on Monday evening might get - that Paddington and the Western route generally are just one big disaster zone, with crisis upon crisis, where it is impossible to make a journey by train.

And if people want to talk about IET deliveries, what is the status of 800001 and 002?

If they are still not available for passenger traffic, then that means the margin for maintenance cover for the five-car fleet still remains wafer-thin, which can't help when it comes to trying to avoid short-forming.

It would be fairly pointless anyone trying to compile statistics at your invitation, as you seem more interested in patterns than outcomes. It could be 10-30% each day but if occurring in a random pattern, for different reasons, without being deliberate, it would seem to avoid your idea of regular or routine. Even if the cover - a function of both the new and old fleet is to some degree in their control.

I have never subscribed to the 'better half than none' idea. If London - Liverpool ran at a 2% cancellation rate last month then a 98% success rate should be a perfectly reasonable benchmark for getting both halves of the train out.
 

jimm

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From what i can discern - the biggest issues here seem to be the following:
1. Slower delivery of completed trains
2. Greater amount of teething issues with the trains than foreseen - taking longer to fix
3. Crewing issues - not having enough drivers trained in electric mode etc/ not enough train managers causing 5 cars out of a 10 car set to be locked out.
4. HST's, Turbo's and 180's being promised to other operators way too early. This should have been dependent on issues 1 and 2 reaching a satisfactory service level.

The secondary issues seem to revolve around perceived comfort levels and concern that some former 8 coach HST diagrams will now be covered by 5-car trains with less seats.

And with regards to journey times - there were promises of substantial time savings -up to 14 minutes IIRC. What is not clear is whether there we will see anymore than a few minutes shaved off between Paddington and Bristol, and Paddington to Cornwall by virtue of the superior electric performance.
Of course it would be nice to have faster journeys - but it isn't the be all and end all. A slightly slower but punctual service - that has enough seats - is better than one that promises quicker journeys but is frequently late and formed of fewer coaches than expected.

All this is having an impact on capacity - fewer seats than before. The question is how long is it likely to be before there are enough 800's delivered and running reliably enough to resolve this?

Re your point 4, the 180s' lease expired at the end of 2016 - six months before a single IET was due to have entered traffic, even on the original schedule. Grand Central agreed to a 12-month extension. The DfT did not give GWR a choice about holding on to HSTs to provide some margin of cover during the transition. Transfers of Turbos from the Thames Valley to the Bristol area have been slower than planned.

As has been noted in threads on this forum over many years, there are quite a number of GWR services where a five-car IET replacing an HST is simply a non-issue, where HSTs were being used due to the lack of anything else more appropriate to the number of passengers actually travelling, or to to fill in time between longer runs by taking an off-peak trip out to Oxford and back to Paddington, and so on.

The new GWR timetable, with reduced journey times, will not be introduced for another 12 months, so maybe you might actually give GWR a break until that timetable and new sectional running times for IETs are actually in place.

How on earth you can claim there are fewer seats, I have no idea. On the Cotswold Line, 250-seat 166s and 280-seat 180s have been almost eliminated now as a result of the use of 326-seat IETs, while every service on the line where a nine-car IET has replaced an HST has several dozen more seats. And that's just one corner of GWR-land.

I think many less-educated folk use 'regularly' when they mean 'frequently'. The discussion about short-forming has been about how frequently it has been the case that trains are sent out short-formed.

Not many times, as a percentage, but a significant percentage, was my impression of the evidence presented so far.

What evidence? Where are the figures? If it is regular, routine, frequent or any other word you care to choose, then it should be a piece of cake to demonstrate this with some hard numbers.

It would be fairly pointless anyone trying to compile statistics at your invitation, as you seem more interested in patterns than outcomes. It could be 10-30% each day but if occurring in a random pattern, for different reasons, without being deliberate, it would seem to avoid your idea of regular or routine. Even if the cover - a function of both the new and old fleet is to some degree in their control.

I have never subscribed to the 'better half than none' idea. If London - Liverpool ran at a 2% cancellation rate last month then a 98% success rate should be a perfectly reasonable benchmark for getting both halves of the train out.

If people are going to claim that something is routine or regular, then I see no reason at all why they should not provide some evidence, instead of simply asserting it.

Where are all the people who banged on about cancellations due to crewing issues earlier in the year? They wouldn't listen to explanations about the delays to crew training, that GWR actually had a record number of drivers on its books, and so on. Now that training has pretty much caught up, such cancellations have all but disappeared, as have all the posts about them.

As someone who for the best part of two decades has experienced the effects of occasional short-forming on Oxford and Cotswold services so other routes can have an HST, my tolerance level for people droning on about shortforming as though this is some entirely new state of affairs is not great. And I know all about the outcomes on occasions when a two-car Turbo has replaced an HST, thanks.

No one is saying short-forming is a wonderful thing - but it happens on occasion, just like motorways clog up for mile after mile on occasion. If only life was a model of perfection and every train on the network worked like a charm 24/7. But they don't - stuff happens.

And stuff has happened when it has come to the entry into service of the IETs - something that is a matter of fact - just as it did with the not exactly perfect introduction of HSTs in the 1970s.
 

CMRail

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I’m sorry, some statements here are taking the ****.

Can I give a couple of examples of my HST experiences.

Saturday - Swindon to Bath and return

On the way we were a seven coach vice ten coach service therefore leading to myself and my elderly companion standing next to the buffet. A long one.

On the return it was an eight coach unit with a twist. Formation: ABCEKKKL. Two of those K coaches were compsite and declassified however means seats lost. The other one was a long buffet. I physically could not board the train without falling out the window mid journey. This caused a 7 minute dwell time on an already 3 minute late train. But as broadgauge says, “rather an HST”. That train has nearly as many seats as a five coach IET and I would have rather boarded that train where I felt safe.

That’s just one of the experiences and I have many more. I am glad my 08:48 from GCR to PAD is now IET as it provides the extra capacity and sometimes has two trolleys. Yes the trolley situation is disappointing however it could be improved by two trolleys operating and a system where the FC host could do their thing in the kitchen to prepare the food.

I’d rather a clean airy and spacious IET turn up than a HST which is worn down, the air con is broke and I feel crammed in.
 

jayah

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Re your point 4, the 180s' lease expired at the end of 2016 - six months before a single IET was due to have entered traffic, even on the original schedule. Grand Central agreed to a 12-month extension. The DfT did not give GWR a choice about holding on to HSTs to provide some margin of cover during the transition. Transfers of Turbos from the Thames Valley to the Bristol area have been slower than planned.

As has been noted in threads on this forum over many years, there are quite a number of GWR services where a five-car IET replacing an HST is simply a non-issue, where HSTs were being used due to the lack of anything else more appropriate to the number of passengers actually travelling, or to to fill in time between longer runs by taking an off-peak trip out to Oxford and back to Paddington, and so on.

The new GWR timetable, with reduced journey times, will not be introduced for another 12 months, so maybe you might actually give GWR a break until that timetable and new sectional running times for IETs are actually in place.

How on earth you can claim there are fewer seats, I have no idea. On the Cotswold Line, 250-seat 166s and 280-seat 180s have been almost eliminated now as a result of the use of 326-seat IETs, while every service on the line where a nine-car IET has replaced an HST has several dozen more seats. And that's just one corner of GWR-land.



What evidence? Where are the figures? If it is regular, routine, frequent or any other word you care to choose, then it should be a piece of cake to demonstrate this with some hard numbers.



If people are going to claim that something is routine or regular, then I see no reason at all why they should not provide some evidence, instead of simply asserting it.

Where are all the people who banged on about cancellations due to crewing issues earlier in the year? They wouldn't listen to explanations about the delays to crew training, that GWR actually had a record number of drivers on its books, and so on. Now that training has pretty much caught up, such cancellations have all but disappeared, as have all the posts about them.

As someone who for the best part of two decades has experienced the effects of occasional short-forming on Oxford and Cotswold services so other routes can have an HST, my tolerance level for people droning on about shortforming as though this is some entirely new state of affairs is not great. And I know all about the outcomes on occasions when a two-car Turbo has replaced an HST, thanks.

No one is saying short-forming is a wonderful thing - but it happens on occasion, just like motorways clog up for mile after mile on occasion. If only life was a model of perfection and every train on the network worked like a charm 24/7. But they don't - stuff happens.

And stuff has happened when it has come to the entry into service of the IETs - something that is a matter of fact - just as it did with the not exactly perfect introduction of HSTs in the 1970s.

Perhaps you should raise your standards?

If Virgin trains can run 98% of the London to Liverpool services with the right number of carriages, is it unreasonable to expect the same on London to Bristol?

If this has been going on with your line for much longer than the IETs have been around that to me suggests the problem is deeper rooted than simply a natural consequence of randomly occuring, unpredictable one off events.
 

CMRail

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Perhaps you should raise your standards?

If Virgin trains can run 98% of the London to Liverpool services with the right number of carriages, is it unreasonable to expect the same on London to Bristol?

If this has been going on with your line for much longer than the IETs have been around that to me suggests the problem is deeper rooted than simply a natural consequence of randomly occuring, unpredictable one off events.

Train. Delivery. Behind.

Is it really difficult? Really, Really difficult?
 

CC 72100

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I’m sorry, some statements here are taking the ****.

Can I give a couple of examples of my HST experiences.

Saturday - Swindon to Bath and return

On the way we were a seven coach vice ten coach service therefore leading to myself and my elderly companion standing next to the buffet. A long one.

On the return it was an eight coach unit with a twist. Formation: ABCEKKKL. Two of those K coaches were compsite and declassified however means seats lost. The other one was a long buffet. I physically could not board the train without falling out the window mid journey. This caused a 7 minute dwell time on an already 3 minute late train. But as broadgauge says, “rather an HST”. That train has nearly as many seats as a five coach IET and I would have rather boarded that train where I felt safe.

That’s just one of the experiences and I have many more. I am glad my 08:48 from GCR to PAD is now IET as it provides the extra capacity and sometimes has two trolleys. Yes the trolley situation is disappointing however it could be improved by two trolleys operating and a system where the FC host could do their thing in the kitchen to prepare the food.

I’d rather a clean airy and spacious IET turn up than a HST which is worn down, the air con is broke and I feel crammed in.

It's not exactly the fault of the HST if it has turned up on a 10 car IET diagram and as a result is rather busy?

I can't say I've heard of people fearing falling out of HSTs either. Maybe before CDL came in in the mid-90s, but fall through a droplight window? I mean how?!

I don't consider the fact that a 12-month old train is in better condition than a 40+ year old train a startling revelation mind?


Without wishing to backseat moderate, this thread would be much better if it wasn't HST fans v IET fans. (not a personal comment on you, just an observation on many posts in the thread). Some people swear by the former, others by the latter, there's little point in trying to convince the 'enemy' otherwise.
 

CMRail

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It's not exactly the fault of the HST if it has turned up on a 10 car IET diagram and as a result is rather busy?

I can't say I've heard of people fearing falling out of HSTs either. Maybe before CDL came in in the mid-90s, but fall through a droplight window? I mean how?!

I don't consider the fact that a 12-month old train is in better condition than a 40+ year old train a startling revelation mind?


Without wishing to backseat moderate, this thread would be much better if it wasn't HST fans v IET fans. (not a personal comment on you, just an observation on many posts in the thread). Some people swear by the former, others by the latter, there's little point in trying to convince the 'enemy' otherwise.

I was speaking to broadgauge who suggested that “everyone on a HST would not get a seat”

We can’t moderate it as people keep going on and we argue, that’s life. I understand your points however you are being a hypocrite by one minute criticising me and then saying it would be better not doing it. Why don’t we call an end to it and agree to disagree? Me and the rest of the people who care more for facts and capacity have been fighting this for over a year now.
 

irish_rail

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It seems those who are happy with IETs are those who are so far predominantly getting the 9 car sets on whichever route they travel on most often . With any luck soon many of these services will be formed instead of 5 cars when the enhanced timetable starts next year and it will be interesting to see if they change their tunes. You know who you are.
 

CMRail

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Gloucester
It seems those who are happy with IETs are those who are so far predominantly getting the 9 car sets on whichever route they travel on most often . With any luck soon many of these services will be formed instead of 5 cars when the enhanced timetable starts next year and it will be interesting to see if they change their tunes. You know who you are.

I take a liking to the ten cars for the trolley as it’s faster...
 

jayah

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18 Apr 2011
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Train. Delivery. Behind.

Is it really difficult? Really, Really difficult?
There is a new fleet and an old fleet that is being wound down. The old fleet is at least in some part in the control of the operator.

Judging from some of the comments 'stop moaning it was always so on xxx line' the problems of today are just different problems for a different day. Ultimately the manufacturer is responsible for getting the trains out and Network Rail for making sure the signals and track work, so you can already see the next 30 years of excuses reaching into the distance. Even when it is crew shortages it is somehow contorted into being the fault of someone else, even though the operator now seems responsible for little else.
 

jimm

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6 Apr 2012
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Without wishing to backseat moderate, this thread would be much better if it wasn't HST fans v IET fans. (not a personal comment on you, just an observation on many posts in the thread). Some people swear by the former, others by the latter, there's little point in trying to convince the 'enemy' otherwise.

If you are trying to suggest I an an 'IET fan' as opposed to an 'HST fan' then I would have to say that I am neither.

I am simply of the opinion that the HSTs have had their day after 40+ years of sterling service and that the IETs deserve a fair crack of the whip, in spite of the often hysterical (sometimes hysterically funny) and often utterly unjustified and repetitive criticism that has been levelled against them in threads here for the best part of a decade, much of it long before Hitachi had started to build a single train.

Even when it is crew shortages it is somehow contorted into being the fault of someone else, even though the operator now seems responsible for little else.

Contorted?

Please enlighten us as to how GWR was meant to train its drivers to operate IETs when the section of track this was supposed to be happening on - Reading-Didcot - was not available to them for this purpose from May to September last year, because of technical issues involving the trains and signalling kit not getting on.

How hard is it to grasp the difficulties that might cause when trying to give drivers hands-on, live railway experience of operating the trains and all the on-board systems?

As a result, the training programme was seriously delayed, leading to many of the problems with crew shortages we saw earlier this year, as there simply weren't enough IET-trained drivers and train mangers to go around.
 
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