GWR Class 800

[D365]

Be interesting to see how ScotRail cope, as all the GEC fitted power cars go north of the border.

It's ironic then that Brush Loughborough are doing up those power cars

 

[coppercapped]

It's ironic then that Brush Loughborough are doing up those power cars

Why? The rest of the power kit, alternators, rectifiers and so on, come from Brush. Only the motors came from GEC - BR's engineers managed to persuade the procurement storm troopers to leave the rest alone!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I had no idea the non-standard GEC kit was still in play. Given the reliability shortfall, why did BR not Retrofit them with the standard Brush traction motors? IIRC it was the initial sets built for the West Country in the late 70s that were so designed, although someone may correct me on this. Any idea which power cars?

 

[jimm]

GEC traction motors are fitted to 43124-43152.

Not that it has anything much to do with Class 800s.

 

[D365]

I've continued the discussion about Class 43 traction motors in the ScotRail HST thread.

 

[SaveECRewards]

As the plan was to launch the Class 800's without a buffet but VTEC managed to get permission to add one is there a risk that now VTEC are having their franchise terminated early will the DfT insist the EC trains are delivered without the Foodbar fitted or would it be too late to change it now?

Also the seat colours in bright red, could the DfT insist on a more neutral colour scheme?

 

[jimm]

As the plan was to launch the Class 800's without a buffet but VTEC managed to get permission to add one is there a risk that now VTEC are having their franchise terminated early will the DfT insist the EC trains are delivered without the Foodbar fitted or would it be too late to change it now?

Also the seat colours in bright red, could the DfT insist on a more neutral colour scheme?

It wasn't "the plan" - the IEP technical specification from 2012 made clear that the design had to allow for a range of options when it came to catering.

6.2.6 Catering
TS1630
IEP Trains must be capable of providing a range of catering services. The catering solutions provided must be capable of providing catering services at four levels:
• Level 1 - Full restaurant service or at seat first class service with meals cooked on board;
• Level 2 - Servery that provides hot and cold snacks and drinks which may be delivered by either of the following methods:
o an at seat first class service together with the replenishment of trolleys for standard class service without the provision of a Café-Bar counter service; or
o the replenishment of trolleys and the provision of a Café-Bar counter service combined together;
• Level 3 - Hot and cold snacks and drinks through a ‘Café-Bar’ style outlet; and
• Level 4 - A trolley service.

DfT seems to have decided on its preferred solution of kitchen+trolley and refused to give GWR any leeway, while Virgin/Stagecoach is being allowed to have a shop. This may have something to do with GWR running a direct award franchise, as opposed to Virgin/Stagecoach having won a competitive tender process, but who knows?

I should think there are rather bigger headaches to deal with when it comes to addressing the future of the East Coast operation - hopefully including not setting wildly over-optimistic financial targets yet again - than whether or not a shop is installed on the 800s and 801s for the route or the colour of the seat fabric, though with DfT micro-management, anything's possible.

 

[SaveECRewards]

It wasn't "the plan" - the IEP technical specification from 2012 made clear that the design had to allow for a range of options when it came to catering.

DfT seems to have decided on its preferred solution of kitchen+trolley and refused to give GWR any leeway, while Virgin/Stagecoach is being allowed to have a shop. This may have something to do with GWR running a direct award franchise, as opposed to Virgin/Stagecoach having won a competitive tender process, but who knows?

I should think there are rather bigger headaches to deal with when it comes to addressing the future of the East Coast operation - hopefully including not setting wildly over-optimistic financial targets yet again - than whether or not a shop is installed on the 800s and 801s for the route or the colour of the seat fabric, though with DfT micro-management, anything's possible.

I know the spec allowed flexibility to accommodate future alternative catering options but I'm also pretty sure that the DfT wanted both franchises to go at seat service only. This is what I was hearing before VTEC was awarded the franchise and once they were awarded the franchise they entered discussions to fix a buffet on each service.

 

[jimm]

I know the spec allowed flexibility to accommodate future alternative catering options but I'm also pretty sure that the DfT wanted both franchises to go at seat service only. This is what I was hearing before VTEC was awarded the franchise and once they were awarded the franchise they entered discussions to fix a buffet on each service.

If it was not discussed during the negotiations for the franchise, how do you explain that the 2014 franchise agreement states in black and white that the seating capacities of the EC IEP sets will be as follows - 303 in five-car sets and 611 in the nine-car?

Which is about 20 seats fewer than in the equivalent GW sets - it's pretty obvious what was going to go in that space.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know the spec allowed flexibility to accommodate future alternative catering options but I'm also pretty sure that the DfT wanted both franchises to go at seat service only. This is what I was hearing before VTEC was awarded the franchise and once they were awarded the franchise they entered discussions to fix a buffet on each service.

TBH I'm with the DfT on this one. Now I travel with a fair bit of technology, taking it all to the buffet and back for a coffee is a faff, I'd rather that was served at my seat. However, I would go for a DB style Bistrowagen where I could sit and pay for a light meal served on a proper plate and real glass of beer to eat/drink in. The "serving hatch" halfway house seems to me to have no real benefit at all.

 

[SaveECRewards]

TBH I'm with the DfT on this one. Now I travel with a fair bit of technology, taking it all to the buffet and back for a coffee is a faff, I'd rather that was served at my seat. However, I would go for a DB style Bistrowagen where I could sit and pay for a light meal served on a proper plate and real glass of beer to eat/drink in. The "serving hatch" halfway house seems to me to have no real benefit at all.

GNER had the ideal solution. A buffet and trolley service - which we still have to this day (subject to staffing, so often the trolley doesn't run). Some people are happy to wait for the trolley and other people just like to get up and go to the buffet whenever needed.

An effective app based solution would be ideal if supplemented with someone walking through taking orders (could be a trolley person with a tablet). That would allow people to order hot food without the need for a buffet counter.

This video (skip to around the 2 minute mark) shows VTEC had plans to launch the food ordering app this year, I always thought they'd launch it alongside the Azuma. Presumably it's been postponed as everything they've had to do with technology this year (ticket machines, website, app) has been a disaster.

If it was not discussed during the negotiations for the franchise, how do you explain that the 2014 franchise agreement states in black and white that the seating capacities of the EC IEP sets will be as follows - 303 in five-car sets and 611 in the nine-car?

Which is about 20 seats fewer than in the equivalent GW sets - it's pretty obvious what was going to go in that space.

Good point! My memory was confused, of course they would have agreed this when they put their franchise proposals in. Not sure whether it was me misremembering or me reading an incorrect article.

I've done a bit of searching and what VTEC said when they won the franchise was they'd discuss with Hitachi (not DfT) about the layout. http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2015/virgin-trains-east-coast/ - "It is our clear intention to have buffet cars on the new trains and we are already in discussions with our supplier Hitachi regarding the layout of the carriages"

I've changed my view somewhat now having travelled on a GWR Class 800. I think the trolley is fine on a 5 car variant and so I'd rather VTEC made more space on these and left the seats in, but I think a 9 car train really does need a buffet and a trolley as those sitting at the wrong end of a busy train may have a long wait.

 

[deltic08]

As the plan was to launch the Class 800's without a buffet but VTEC managed to get permission to add one is there a risk that now VTEC are having their franchise terminated early will the DfT insist the EC trains are delivered without the Foodbar fitted or would it be too late to change it now?

Also the seat colours in bright red, could the DfT insist on a more neutral colour scheme?

I really hope so. East Coast run by Direct Trains had subtle colours of pink and purple. Virgin Red is vulgar and always in your face. Can't wait for their franchise to end and be taken back with a heavy fine for breaking their contract.

 

[wbm00]

Random question - on most trains either the nearside or offside front lights are illuminated.

Why do Class 800s have both headlights illuminated? Also, what's the purpose of the single light above the cab windscreen?

 

[Domh245]

Random question - on most trains either the nearside or offside front lights are illuminated.

Why do Class 800s have both headlights illuminated? Also, what's the purpose of the single light above the cab windscreen?

The latest regulations regarding "audibility and visibility of trains" requires that two headlights are illuminated on the front of the train, combined with a third marker light above the windscreen, forming a triangle. In years gone by, they only required one headlight, and one marker light (although post privatisation the third marker lights (or cyclops lights) started to appear) - the offside headlight being lit in the day, the nearside being lit in the night - nowadays, the headlights are either on full brightness during the day, or dimmed during the night. This can also be quite clearly seen on the 700s and 345s. Hitachi are going above and beyond by illuminating both headlights and both marker lights on the 800s, as well as the high level marker light - you'd be hard pressed to miss them!

 

[43096]

The latest regulations regarding "audibility and visibility of trains" requires that two headlights are illuminated on the front of the train, combined with a third marker light above the windscreen, forming a triangle. In years gone by, they only required one headlight, and one marker light (although post privatisation the third marker lights (or cyclops lights) started to appear) - the offside headlight being lit in the day, the nearside being lit in the night - nowadays, the headlights are either on full brightness during the day, or dimmed during the night. This can also be quite clearly seen on the 700s and 345s. Hitachi are going above and beyond by illuminating both headlights and both marker lights on the 800s, as well as the high level marker light - you'd be hard pressed to miss them!

It is these regulations - which I believe are a TSI standard - that allow front ends that are not yellow. So those creating images of stuff with no yellow front might need to change the headlights on their creations.

 

[irish_rail]

The latest regulations regarding "audibility and visibility of trains" requires that two headlights are illuminated on the front of the train, combined with a third marker light above the windscreen, forming a triangle. In years gone by, they only required one headlight, and one marker light (although post privatisation the third marker lights (or cyclops lights) started to appear) - the offside headlight being lit in the day, the nearside being lit in the night - nowadays, the headlights are either on full brightness during the day, or dimmed during the night. This can also be quite clearly seen on the 700s and 345s. Hitachi are going above and beyond by illuminating both headlights and both marker lights on the 800s, as well as the high level marker light - you'd be hard pressed to miss them!

Yes been a fair few complaints from drivers being dazzled both day and night by 800s, seels they have been dimmed a bit more lately presumably as a result. I do wonder if those who are planning on having none yellow fronts will be allowed to run with the headlights in "dimmed" mode. .......

 

[brel york]

Yes not likely to be problem HST's would have had at launch with their low tech door system.

Low tech enough not to have a door handle on inside , mk2d had interior handles and fastened up drop lights until people started falling out, sadly the first was an 11 yo who died

 

[Bletchleyite]

Low tech enough not to have a door handle on inside , mk2d had interior handles and fastened up drop lights until people started falling out, sadly the first was an 11 yo who died

Meanwhile 5km/h door blocking and autoclosing was ubiquitous throughout Europe. Why did we think it wasn't good enough for us? The XP64 coaches even used the same type of door but with neither of those features fitted.

Had Mk2 and up had UIC folding doors with those features, as just about every European coach built since the 1970s did, many lives would have been saved, and many minutes of delays too.

Not to mention money saved - they can be converted relatively easily to power opening as SBB have.

 

[Bletchleyite]

All sorts of interesting new stuff to see from the WLL today!

A 9-car Class 800 set at North Pole, on the curve up to the WLL at approx 1400, if anyone is interested. Sorry, didn't see which one.

 

[FGW_DID]

All sorts of interesting new stuff to see from the WLL today!

A 9-car Class 800 set at North Pole, on the curve up to the WLL at approx 1400, if anyone is interested. Sorry, didn't see which one.

Have seen reported elsewhere on t’interweb = 800302

 

[Thunderer]

Hi Folks - has anyone got an up to date list of class 800/0's that have now been fully commissioned into service, vinyled and available for GWR to allocate to services? I have seen the following ones in South Wales 800005/006/008/009/010/011/012, but there are probably a few more in service? Many thanks...

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I've had all those plus 800 013 for haulage.

With four diagrams there's 8 in service on any one day so there must be at least 2 or 3 more commissioned.

 

[Domh245]

I think that at the moment it is 800005-800015 (not including 800007)

 

[JonathanH]

I've had all those plus 800 013 for haulage.

With four diagrams there's 8 in service on any one day so there must be at least 2 or 3 more commissioned.

800014 and 800015 have also been reported in service. Seem to be 12 needed next week so expect one or two more. They seem to have done fairly well without a lot of active spares this far. There are some used for training too like 800003.

 

[Master29]

Personally I think Virgin have the right idea with a food shop/buffet whatever you want to call it. Everyone I know in the GWR region is in favour of a buffet. Why is there so much enmity toward Virgin around this. Why should they lose their franchise? What does it matter and do those who oppose have a conflict of interest type reason. Sometimes I wonder. I`m not Mr Branson or Mr Stagecoach btw.

 

[Thunderer]

I think that at the moment it is 800005-800015 (not including 800007)

Msny thanks for the info....more to come soon no doubt.

 

[D1009]

800016 was at Reading depot yesterday, presumbably working 3Z25 and 3Z27.

 

[Typhoon_93]

The first coaches of IEP040/800304 have started to appear outside at Aycliffe.

Coaches are :-
821004-822004-828004-829004.

 

[superalbs]

The first coaches of IEP040/800304 have started to appear outside at Aycliffe.

Coaches are :-
821004-822004-828004-829004.


View attachment 40154 View attachment 40155

Oh good, painted as well.

 

[Typhoon_93]

Oh good, painted as well.

The 800/3 batch will all be painted base GWR from the factory (the shells arrive painted from Japan).