GWR Class 800

[TheKnightWho]

But you would be fighting the law of diminished returns with any modifications along those lines - the "advantage" you're looking at is worth less than 30 seconds!

True, but then it makes you wonder why the track was uprated in the first place.

 

[Pure BR]

Yawn.

Pathetic response.
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If only there was a like button. Or high five!

Bloody hilarious!!
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LHCS will be a thing of the past one day, - get used to it!

I'm sure Chiltern would beg to differ. Do you all work for the DfT or something?!?!?

 

[Class377/5]

I'm sure Chiltern would beg to differ. Do you all work for the DfT or something?!?!?

More to do with lack of suitable alternatives but as Chiltern are strugling, the more expensive LHCS does make things more difficult.

Then again the comment that MU is vaild as look at what is actually bring ordered, that right, pretty much mostly MU these days.

 

[HSTEd]

Chiltern only took on LHCS because there were no DMUs to be found.

 

[RobShipway]

Chiltern only took on LHCS because there were no DMUs to be found.

Also, because they inherited the Wrexham and Shropshire trains from part of Arriva.

 

[MCR247]

Pathetic response.

To a pathetic post

 

[Martin222002]

More to do with lack of suitable alternatives but as Chiltern are strugling, the more expensive LHCS does make things more difficult.

Then again the comment that MU is vaild as look at what is actually bring ordered, that right, pretty much mostly MU these days.

To add to that, Chiltern have also chosen to hire (or pinch) the TPE 170s rather than convert more Mk3 loco-hauled sets to expand their fleet for the soon to be introduced Oxford services.

 

[AM9]

Do you all work for the DfT or something?!?!?

No, we've all accepted that the '70s have long passed. Wake up to the 21st century.

 

[ac6000cw]

It's probably a question of not having enough power to go over 100 rather than being specifically restricted to that speed on diesel. I can't think of any technical reason why a train with diesels fitted but not running could be allowed to go faster than the same train with the diesels running.

That was my take on it too. Since Hitachi presumably has to guarantee the performance of the trains, it's being conservative at this stage.

As DownSouth says, unless you can get long periods between stops/speed restrictions, good acceleration is far more important than 10% on the maximum speed. That's the main reason the Voyagers have 700hp+ per car (and AC electric transmission) - it makes them one of the fastest accelerating 'long distance' trains on the network...

 

[47802]

No, we've all accepted that the '70s have long passed. Wake up to the 21st century.

Indeed Passenger Loco Haulage is essentially a thing of the past, except for short and mid term solutions to deal with the lack of DMU's

Were the 800's essentially specified to do only 100mph on Diesel as I don't really think there is any significant stretches of line that the 800's as originally ordered would normally need to do above 100mph on Diesel.

 

[LexyBoy]

To a pathetic post

You'd honestly find a DMU as comfortable as LHCS/EMU for a 5 hour journey? I think the bimode is great for running to Cheltenham, Swansea or Weston, but definitely a step down in comfort for long journeys (unless made up by other improvements, which is of course not going to happen).

Luckily the IEP will have unpowered coaches so those of us who enjoy being able to feel our legs at the end of a journey can choose to sit in those.

 

[MCR247]

You'd honestly find a DMU as comfortable as LHCS/EMU for a 5 hour journey? I think the bimode is great for running to Cheltenham, Swansea or Weston, but definitely a step down in comfort for long journeys (unless made up by other improvements, which is of course not going to happen).



Luckily the IEP will have unpowered coaches so those of us who enjoy being able to feel our legs at the end of a journey can choose to sit in those.

If they had the same interior and there was no other difference then honestly yes. Currently I will always try to get Nottingham - london trains run by 222s and avoid HSTs (due to free wifi and plugs). I actually find 222s a lot more comfortable anyway (better seats and better ride)

 

[LexyBoy]

Each to their own, I'd have thought that if all else were equal surely having no engine underneath would be preferable.

I can understand preferring a 222 though - the seats on EMT's HSTs are horribly uncomfortable. Good for an occasional dose of nostalgia though.

 

[Dent]

Luckily the IEP will have unpowered coaches so those of us who enjoy being able to feel our legs at the end of a journey can choose to sit in those.

Does travelling in a modern diesel-powered train really render you unable to feel your legs at the end of the journey? I have never experienced this, and it honestly sounds like somewhere between wild exaggeration and completely baseless scaremongering.

 

[CosherB]

......... sounds like somewhere between wild exaggeration and completely baseless scaremongering.

Since when have facts and a justifiable rationale ever got in the way of a good story on here?!

 

[ert47]

Does travelling in a modern diesel-powered train really render you unable to feel your legs at the end of the journey?

I heard you can get DVT from sitting on these train for too long, but I always thought you only get it from one end of a loco hauled set

*grabs coat*

 

[RichmondCommu]

Luckily the IEP will have unpowered coaches so those of us who enjoy being able to feel our legs at the end of a journey can choose to sit in those.

Not that you're one for exaggeration! I've used a Voyager on a two and a half hour journey without losing the feeling in my legs so I'm not sure what happened in your case.

 

[MCR247]

Each to their own, I'd have thought that if all else were equal surely having no engine underneath would be preferable.

I can honestly say that engine noise on trains doesn't bother me. Without trying to get into the "all of my mates who are pax..." argument that both sides can use, I would genuinely be interested to know if many passengers cared out engine noise.

 

[RobShipway]

I can honestly say that engine noise on trains doesn't bother me. Without trying to get into the "all of my mates who are pax..." argument that both sides can use, I would genuinely be interested to know if many passengers cared out engine noise.

Surely the point is whether the rise of the train is smooth whether there is an engine below the carriage or not.

For example the class 180, has engines beneath it's carriages but also in my opinion has a smooth ride when travelling on it as a passenger as does the Meridians. However, even though the Voyager trains are comfortable, the ride of the train at times for an Inter City train leaves a little to be desired.

The Voyagers are okay for travelling Bournemouth to Reading or Reading to Birmingham but are not the ideal train to be travelling Bournemouth to say Manchester, Newcastle, Glasgow or Edingburgh.

We await to see what the ride of the class 800's and the AT300's if they get approved will be like. However, if they are like the 395's then I found that to have a bit of a bumpy ride when I travelled on one a few years ago.

 

[MCR247]

Surely the point is whether the rise of the train is smooth whether there is an engine below the carriage or not.

If your point is that ride is more important than engine noise then I wholeheartedly agree. Engine noise is just something that is in the background to me and I pay no attention to it. However many people on here argue that underfloor engines give them headaches etc.

 

[fowler9]

Given that I am 40 and that many on this forum are my age or younger I would say that a good number on this forum are just used to the under floor noise. If they were more used to LHCS they may feel differently. I would have to say that it is not particularly pleasant and to me feels a bit cheap. It has never made me loose the feeling in my legs though. Ha ha.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Given that I am 40 and that many on this forum are my age or younger I would say that a good number on this forum are just used to the under floor noise. If they were more used to LHCS they may feel differently. I would have to say that it is not particularly pleasant and to me feels a bit cheap. It has never made me loose the feeling in my legs though. Ha ha.

I'm 49 in August and to a large extent I agree with you. However I do think that the standard of the trains, even with underfloor engines is much better on say the trans Pennine routes then it was back in the 1980's.

In all honesty I do think that if diesel engine technology had been more advanced in the 1960's we would have seen DMU's built to operate Inter City services.

 

[AM9]

The engine noise or even vibration at legally allowed levels have no relationship with DVT. But, you can get DVT by sitting for too long in any seat, even one that doesn't move an inch from your lounge. That's why modern train seats aren't the soggy over padded type much remenisced about by those who long for the days of BR.
So for a few years now, if ever I know that I will be travelling seated for over 3-4 hours with little or no chance of stretching my legs, I take the precaution of wearing flight socks. They do make a difference anyway as they keep my legs from feeling heavy and tired on long journeys, (unlike the rest of me).
I've heard some pretty daft arguments about why LHCS is worlds better than MU, buy not one like this!

 

[fowler9]

I'm 49 in August and to a large extent I agree with you. However I do think that the standard of the trains, even with underfloor engines is much better on say the trans Pennine routes then it was back in the 1980's.

In all honesty I do think that if diesel engine technology had been more advanced in the 1960's we would have seen DMU's built to operate Inter City services.

I would have to agree with that after getting a stupidly cheap first class ticket on FTPE last April. A really good service.
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The engine noise or even vibration at legally allowed levels have no relationship with DVT. But, you can get DVT by sitting for too long in any seat, even one that doesn't move an inch from your lounge. That's why modern train seats aren't the soggy over padded type much remenisced about by those who long for the days of BR.
So for a few years now, if ever I know that I will be travelling seated for over 3-4 hours with little or no chance of stretching my legs, I take the precaution of wearing flight socks. They do make a difference anyway as they keep my legs from feeling heavy and tired on long journeys, (unlike the rest of me).
I've heard some pretty daft arguments about why LHCS is worlds better than MU, buy not one like this!

As regards the seats, I caught a Talent 2 in Berlin the other day and it was like sitting on concrete. Really not nice.

 

[LexyBoy]

Does travelling in a modern diesel-powered train really render you unable to feel your legs at the end of the journey? I have never experienced this, and it honestly sounds like somewhere between wild exaggeration and completely baseless scaremongering.

Mild, but not wild, exaggeration perhaps; having done Reading-Glasgow on Voyagers I can honestly say that my lower legs were feeling quite numb after a couple of hours. I've never had the same on long non-DMU journeys.

I do get really rather tired of the way discussion of anything to do with passenger comfort always ends up with one side utterly dismissing the opinion of the other. Perhaps it's time to leave the underfloor engine discussion out of this thread and get back on topic (yes I accept that I contributed to the inevitable derailment).

I'm looking forward to seeing pics of the 800s in the wild. Are the interiors fitted out already does anyone know? Would be interesting to see.

 

[Martin222002]

I'm looking forward to seeing pics of the 800s in the wild. Are the interiors fitted out already does anyone know? Would be interesting to see.

Well here is a link to 800001 in action on the Old Dalby test track care of RAIL magazines Facebook page. The interiors of the ones coming across from Japan have not yet been fitted out (bare the galley kitchen which has been fitted), and believe they will be fitted out once these sets have completed all their testing.

 

[edwin_m]

The only thing I can think of is braking. There is this section in the IEP Technical Spec:

So, possibly the braking in Diesel mode is reduced to the extent that the maximum speed is also reduced. The conventional brakes must be able to handle the braking requirement if the traction braking goes out of service, but possibly only for one-off emergency use rather than regular service application. Just a guess.

Possible, though I would have thought it would need resistors to use in electric mode if the line wasn't receptive, and these would equally be available in diesel mode.

 

[DownSouth]

Possible, though I would have thought it would need resistors to use in electric mode if the line wasn't receptive, and these would equally be available in diesel mode.

You need to have some strategy for dissipate the heat though. Remember that energy cannot be deleted, only converted to a different form or transferred.

In the case of the dynamic brakes used on diesel-electric locomotives, large fans (easily visible on top of the loco roof) are used to suck air through the resistor banks and remove the heat. When a train is heading downhill, the air coming out from the dynamic brake fans shows up brighter on a thermal imaging camera than the exhaust from the idling engine.

Mild, but not wild, exaggeration perhaps; having done Reading-Glasgow on Voyagers I can honestly say that my lower legs were feeling quite numb after a couple of hours. I've never had the same on long non-DMU journeys.

I would be interested in seeing a study done with randomly selected participants (i.e. not a self-selecting group of rail enthusiasts) and proper scientific methods to determine whether the proportion of the general population affected by this is as high as the proportion of rail enthusiasts.

 

[Dent]

I do get really rather tired of the way discussion of anything to do with passenger comfort always ends up with one side utterly dismissing the opinion of the other.

It is not "utterly dismissing" anyone's opinion to point out that the exaggerations and scare-stories that have been posted are exaggerations and scare-stories.

Challenging untrue, unsubstantiated and/or misleading statements is a necessary part of a reasoned discussion. This is not about anyone's opinion, but about the unsound claims with which some try to add weight to their opinions. Nor is it about any childish notion of "sides".

 

[Emblematic]

Possible, though I would have thought it would need resistors to use in electric mode if the line wasn't receptive, and these would equally be available in diesel mode.

That's how I read the spec. - it needs to decelerate through the traction at least as much as the acceleration force, and regeneration needs to happen when supply parameters are met and be switched off very rapidly when they are not. That mandates rheostatic braking as a fallback. So the question would be why wouldn't you have it available when running off the powerpacks? It's not specified, but not ruled out by the spec. either.