GWR 150/9s again?

[tiptoptaff]

The problem is you have to achieve the same for all the other units working in Cornwall as well. So now you need two separate cycles that both rotate units via Exeter.

True, but they'd already be a sub-class with their own diagrams so wouldn't quite be so difficult.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

True, but they'd already be a sub-class with their own diagrams so wouldn't quite be so difficult.

But as the majority of trains in and out of Cornwall are IETs or HSTs that isn’t exactly that easy.

 

[REVUpminster]

All this speculation about 5 car 150s from one tweet about the St Ives branch; I don't buy it. Last year for one trip only 2 x165s 132/134 (one being the training train) on the 10 March did the school run to Torre but on the return had to uncouple at St David's because 4 cars of turbo could not travel to Exmouth. So I would contend the future is 3 car 165s on all the Devon and Cornwall branches, except for Barnstaple with it's 158s and even there the user groups prefer the turbos.

Those two trains is my avitar as I rushed down to Paignton to get a photo.

 

[fgwrich]

All this speculation about 5 car 150s from one tweet about the St Ives branch; I don't buy it. Last year for one trip only 2 x165s 132/134 (one being the training train) on the 10 March did the school run to Torre but on the return had to uncouple at St David's because 4 cars of turbo could not travel to Exmouth. So I would contend the future is 3 car 165s on all the Devon and Cornwall branches, except for Barnstaple with it's 158s and even there the user groups prefer the turbos.

Those two trains is my avitar as I rushed down to Paignton to get a photo.

Well, buy it or not, it has certainly been talked about within GWR and NR Western. There is some truth into it, rather than a mess room gossip or platform edge wobble thing.

 

[irish_rail]

Well, buy it or not, it has certainly been talked about within GWR and NR Western. There is some truth into it, rather than a mess room gossip or platform edge wobble thing.

I can't help but feel though thr amount of disruption this would cause to the overall fleet and diagrams , is the one extra carriage (that would probably only be needed on a handful of days per year) really worth it. I suspect not, and wish GWR would worry more about not short forming trains on the Penzance to Paddington route.

 

[RPI]

1820 is probably a little early for the 3car to drop out in high summer, but the principle is there

Not on a Saturday night, St Ives is strange as summer Saturday's aren't anywhere near as busy as the rest of the week.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2022 ==

All this speculation about 5 car 150s from one tweet about the St Ives branch; I don't buy it. Last year for one trip only 2 x165s 132/134 (one being the training train) on the 10 March did the school run to Torre but on the return had to uncouple at St David's because 4 cars of turbo could not travel to Exmouth. So I would contend the future is 3 car 165s on all the Devon and Cornwall branches, except for Barnstaple with it's 158s and even there the user groups prefer the turbos.

Those two trains is my avitar as I rushed down to Paignton to get a photo.

The 5 car St Ives has come from a very good source, with ASDO currently being developed on the 16x units then short platforms won't be a problem and as has been pointed out several times by those in the know, 150's will be around for some time yet, particularly in Cornwall.

 

[Rob F]

Why has this become a problem? Before sprinterisation the St Ives line was regularly 5 car in the summer. Where the first gen DMU cars shorter?

 

[RPI]

Why has this become a problem? Before sprinterisation the St Ives line was regularly 5 car in the summer. Where the first gen DMU cars shorter?

A couple of things, back then the service was closer to hourly than the half hourly it is now, though in the last years of DMU operation (1995 and 1996) it was a 3 or 4 car depending on how many vehicles Longrock could get to start in the morning. Since sprinterisation (spring 1997 onwards) the summer has been more often than not a 4 car 150, over the years the service frequency has improved and passenger numbers have kept growing.

Class 117 vehicles (the mainstay on the branch in later years) are a fraction shorter than a class 150 vehicle, a class 101 vehicle is shorter again (there was one class 101 as a regular on the branch towards the end, L842)

 

[Rob F]

A couple of things, back then the service was closer to hourly than the half hourly it is now, though in the last years of DMU operation (1995 and 1996) it was a 3 or 4 car depending on how many vehicles Longrock could get to start in the morning. Since sprinterisation (spring 1997 onwards) the summer has been more often than not a 4 car 150, over the years the service frequency has improved and passenger numbers have kept growing.

Class 117 vehicles (the mainstay on the branch in later years) are a fraction shorter than a class 150 vehicle, a class 101 vehicle is shorter again (there was one class 101 as a regular on the branch towards the end, L842)

Thanks for the info. So that small difference in length is enough to make 5 car operation unworkable now?

 

[507020]

Since sprinterisation (spring 1997 onwards

So St Ives didn’t get Sprinters until 1997, more than 10 years after their introduction…

Thanks for the info. So that small difference in length is enough to make 5 car operation unworkable now?

Not now that they've lengthened the platforms.

 

[Rob F]

There are pictures here:

St Ives branch

St Ives Branch The idea of this section is to publish photographs of the Cornwall Railway scene before 1980. However, in the interests of continuity we might include a later...

www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk

of 6 car class 117 in use on the branch.

 

[Bungle158]

Would they really use a 158 on an all day St Ives diagram? The dwell times would be horrific

True, l used to work that line as a guard. 150s are probably the ideal traction for the branch in summer.

 

[RPI]

Thanks for the info. So that small difference in length is enough to make 5 car operation unworkable now?

Lelant Village is the only issue, though not ideal, local door only there wouldn't pose a massive issue as its only one train per 2 hours and is lightly used, but with the incredibly tight timings then extensions would probably be best.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2022 ==

There are pictures here:

St Ives branch

St Ives Branch The idea of this section is to publish photographs of the Cornwall Railway scene before 1980. However, in the interests of continuity we might include a later...

www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk

of 6 car class 117 in use on the branch.

Mostly early years, certainly in the 80's and 90's it was 4/5 car in the summer, certainly later it was whatever castoffs had been sent from Tyseley or Reading!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

True, l used to work that line as a guard. 150s are probably the ideal traction for the branch in summer.

From my experience of travelling on it, something like a diesel 710 would be ideal with how busy it gets

 

[co-tr-paul]

I don't think the 5 car St Ives plan is proposed for the immediate future - it relies among other things on the 769s cascading Turbos west to free up 150s from current duties.

There will be a reduced HST requirement from May enabled by the use of some IETs on Cardiff - Penzance west services. I suspect this will reduce further from Dec 22 as, in theory, more Turbos will have come west following 769 introduction at Reading.

With the number of DMU substitutions we're currently seeing because of poor HST reliability, having IETs and more Turbos available for west services will hopefully further free up class 150 stock.

No reduction in Castle sets until December.. 12 in use from May timetable as is current. 10 from December. From Internal staff notices.

 

[northernbelle]

No reduction in Castle sets until December.. 12 in use from May timetable as is current. 10 from December. From Internal staff notices.

No reduction, but no increase back to full fleet deployment either.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

No reduction, but no increase back to full fleet deployment either.

12 traffic diagrams is full fleet deployment

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

No reduction in Castle sets until December.. 12 in use from May timetable as is current. 10 from December. From Internal staff notices.

How can 12 be in use when there’s only 12? No maintenance spare? Or do you just mean all of them are staying, not twelve diagrams.

 

[43096]

12 traffic diagrams is full fleet deployment

75% use of trailer sets and 69% power car utilisation is not “full fleet deployment”. They should be able to get 14 sets out daily: evidently they’ve accepted that Laira are incapable of maintaining the fleet to any sort of acceptable availability.

 

[REVUpminster]

Exeter having a bad day today. 2 158s 1 166 and two short formed 150s (one on the school train with 200 grammar schoolchildren. Cosy) working Paignton Exmouth. One 2 car 150 working Barnstaple.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

75% use of trailer sets and 69% power car utilisation is not “full fleet deployment”. They should be able to get 14 sets out daily: evidently they’ve accepted that Laira are incapable of maintaining the fleet to any sort of acceptable availability.

You seem to conveniently forget the fleet is so old that there’s always one set away at a time for Corrosion repair at Wabtec, this has been going on for some time.

Availability for GWR HSTs is higher than Scotrail HSTs which is the only other similar sized fleet.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I thought they only had twelve operational sets?

 

[RPI]

From my experience of travelling on it, something like a diesel 710 would be ideal with how busy it gets

Exeter having a bad day today. 2 158s 1 166 and two short formed 150s (one on the school train with 200 grammar schoolchildren. Cosy) working Paignton Exmouth. One 2 car 150 working Barnstaple.

Looks like late running 2F05 caused some issues meaning sets had to be stepped up

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

Though the two 158's out on the metro are at least three car sets

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I thought they only had twelve operational sets?

Even when GWR had a full fleet of 2+8 HSTs the number of 'sets' was a little grey in practice, as there were various spare vehicles and a lot of power cars (think it was 120, to cover 48 pairs diagrammed?)

 

[sbrignall72]

How can 12 be in use when there’s only 12? No maintenance spare? Or do you just mean all of them are staying, not twelve diagrams.

There are actually 16 sets with just a test as a spare vehicle

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Mar 2022 ==

Test should read TGS.

 

[43096]

You seem to conveniently forget the fleet is so old that there’s always one set away at a time for Corrosion repair at Wabtec, this has been going on for some time.

So they should be able to get 13 into traffic now, rising to 14 once the Wabtec work is complete. It's not clear why Wabtec need to do corrosion repair now: that should have been done when they got the sliding doors, so either it wasn't in the scope (GWR screw up) or it's warranty work (Wabtec screw up).

 

[fgwrich]

So they should be able to get 13 into traffic now, rising to 14 once the Wabtec work is complete. It's not clear why Wabtec need to do corrosion repair now: that should have been done when they got the sliding doors, so either it wasn't in the scope (GWR screw up) or it's warranty work (Wabtec screw up).

I'm not sure where the additional corrosion work has come from, unless it has been discovered at Laira - the sets were heading back to Doncaster for Warranty Work.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

So they should be able to get 13 into traffic now, rising to 14 once the Wabtec work is complete. It's not clear why Wabtec need to do corrosion repair now: that should have been done when they got the sliding doors, so either it wasn't in the scope (GWR screw up) or it's warranty work (Wabtec screw up).

I’m not quite sure the fascination you have with trying to push an elderly fleet harder. The planned availability of both GWR power cars and trailers is considerably higher than any other equivalent ex BR Intercity Fleets (LNER 225s, XC 125s and Scotrail 125s) using your own figures of 75% for trailers and 69% for power cars for GWR so it would be interesting to understand your logic?

LNER - 5 diagrams for 8 sets of trailers (63%) and 12 locomotives (42%)

XC - 3 diagrams for 5 sets of trailers (60%) and 12 power cars (50%)

Scotrail - 16 diagrams for 26 sets of trailers (62%) and 52 power cars (50%)

There are no other ex BR “Intercity” fleets in mainstream service anymore.

 

[43096]

I’m not quite sure the fascination you have with trying to push an elderly fleet harder.

Somebody is paying for this largesse, and it ain't GWR.

The planned availability of both GWR power cars and trailers is better than other equivalent ex BR Intercity Fleets (LNER 225s and Scotrail 125s):

LNER - 5 diagrams for 8 sets of trailers (63%) and 12 locomotives (42%)

Scotrail - 16 diagrams for 26 sets of trailers (62%) and 52 power cars (50%)

Certainly the ScotRail fleet is well below the originally planned utilisation. Both have mitigating circumstances where either the TOC has not had the fleet for that long (ScotRail) or they are not long transferred to a different depot (LNER sets to Neville Hill). What's Laira's excuse?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Somebody is paying for this largesse, and it ain't GWR.

Certainly the ScotRail fleet is well below the originally planned utilisation. Both have mitigating circumstances where either the TOC has not had the fleet for that long (ScotRail) or they are not long transferred to a different depot (LNER sets to Neville Hill). What's Laira's excuse?

There’s no excuse, it’s the same as the 91s at Neville Hill, getting parts for obsolete fleets is challenging. I don’t recollect just prior to Covid when 91 and mk4 sets were at their historic home of Bounds Green availability being much better for a similar number of diagrams.

It’s worth noting Scotrail rarely achieve their planned availability.

Power cars are so warped these days cabs aren’t readily interchangeable like they used to be etc.

All these fleets however have a much higher availability on the traction side than the Swiss Re 425 as per your profile photo or Re 460s (which are more modern than both 43s and 91s), indeed the 460s have 87 diagrams out of a fleet of 119 locos - 73% for an electric fleet which you would generally expect to be higher than a diesel HST power car. Swiss Railways are often said to be some of the most revered in Europe!

So I ask again what is unreasonable about the currently planned GWR availability requirements, they seem pretty good.