GWR 150/9s again?

[skyhigh]

If discussing 5-car 150s, it makes me wonder if GWR have been in touch with Northern RE: leasing 150001 or 150002.

Doubt it, Northern need those themselves.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Presume the post regarding a spare turbo was actually in reference to the Brighton’s being dropped, but the unit that ended on Fratton to form 1S91 still starts on Fratton, but runs ECS to Warminster via Chandlers Ford.

There isn’t actually a spare turbo with the dropping of the Brighton, it’s just replaced the cl158 that was crashed into at Salisbury.

 

[Trainfan061193]

How many 150s would be converted into 3 cars if this is the case?

 

[RPI]

The 150+153+150 was in around 2004 (I worked on the branch that day!) But it was due to one of the 150's having an engine out, was a choice of having a 150+153 with lower capacity (i seem to remember it was July or August) or make it up to 5 with the extra vehicle and slightly improved power to weight. Only lasted the morning anyway as another 150 was sent down from Exeter, some shunting ensued and the afternoon was back to the 4 car 150. The only issue was at Lelant where the crew doors of the 150's were off the platform (the 153 was in the middle).

Back in DMU days the summer service was often five car formations of class 117/118+bubble cars, I remember once a 2 car 117+ 3 bubble cars, the only issue then being at Lelant but with slam doors wasn't really an issue, there haven't been any platform extensions since then.

As for someone suggesting 158's for the St Ives.... that person has clearly never worked on the St Ives branch when the sun is shining!

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

A 158 in the high summer peak would be a performance basket case.

Given the current West stock position I can’t see any 3-car 150s being formed up. That doesn’t mean they won’t be in future years though, the platform extension work seems a sensible piece of future-proofing to meet demand (which can be extraordinary at times.)

 

[Timmyd]

Does the branch get busy enough to need 5 cars? Long time since I’ve been down there but while I know it gets busy does there can’t be many occasions when 4 cars dont manage?

 

[cactustwirly]

Since GWR joined realtimes showing stock I've been keeping a record of Devon and lately Cornwall stock Mon-Fri. 166203 worked Okehampton 10 January and and 165132 the following day. Nothing since unless at the weekend.
Surely the 165s have to come west as 769s come in as there can't be the storage at Reading for both??

769s are in storage at Long Marston. They are a long way from service, especially as no train crew have been trained yet.

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Some timetable tweaks on both the North Downs and Oxford/Didcot peak workings release 2 turbo units from Reading.

Why can't these be kept in Reading and provide Bedwyn with a proper train service?

 

[fgwrich]

A 158 in the high summer peak would be a performance basket case.

Given the current West stock position I can’t see any 3-car 150s being formed up. That doesn’t mean they won’t be in future years though, the platform extension work seems a sensible piece of future-proofing to meet demand (which can be extraordinary at times.)

Using 158s on most of the Cornish Branches is a basket case situation (St Ives and Falmouth). Regarding how many can be formed up, that was my first thought when initially heard the proposals last month. Without additional units coming into the fleet, it'll be interesting to see how this can be done - not least as, to a degree, it also relies on Laira getting the short HSTs to perform reliably.

Does the branch get busy enough to need 5 cars? Long time since I’ve been down there but while I know it gets busy does there can’t be many occasions when 4 cars dont manage?

Yes - last summer, albeit with social distancing rules in place, GWR were running 4 car 150 shuttles with an additional Open Top bus service to supplement the branch.

 

[REVUpminster]

158762 worked Falmouth last Tuesday. Exeter spreading the love. 165/6 have not gone past Plymouth AFAIK.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

769s are in storage at Long Marston. They are a long way from service, especially as no train crew have been trained yet.

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Why can't these be kept in Reading and provide Bedwyn with a proper train service?

Presumably because passenger number recovery in the west has been a lot stronger so focussing capacity on where demand is.

 

[fgwrich]

Presumably because passenger number recovery in the west has been a lot stronger so focussing capacity on where demand is.

To be honest, Devon Metro never tailed off that much - it's always been a strong performer. Commuter traffic into London is still a different story at the moment.

 

[507020]

Since GWR joined realtimes showing stock I've been keeping a record of Devon and lately Cornwall stock Mon-Fri. 166203 worked Okehampton 10 January and and 165132 the following day. Nothing since unless at the weekend.
Surely the 165s have to come west as 769s come in as there can't be the storage at Reading for both??

Thank you. They were more regular at one point. It does seem like quite a while. Any idea how busy the services have been?

If discussing 5-car 150s, it makes me wonder if GWR have been in touch with Northern RE: leasing 150001 or 150002.

150001 and 150002 are non-gangway. The units GWR already swapped with Northern were on the basis of having a fully gangwayed fleet. Northern now operates the entire 150/1 fleet as well as 150001 and 150002. GWR are more likely to get extra 150/2s freed up by TfW.

How many 150s would be converted into 3 cars if this is the case?

If only one 3 car and one 2 car unit were required to run the 5 car branch shuttle at a time, then presumably one 2 car unit would be split to create two 3 car units, requiring 50% availability from the 3 car sub fleet to always be able to run a 5 car formation.

Does the branch get busy enough to need 5 cars? Long time since I’ve been down there but while I know it gets busy does there can’t be many occasions when 4 cars dont manage?

When I went on it, 4 cars definitely couldn’t manage. I doubt 5 would even begin to make a difference to the crush loading situation, but at least it constitutes a 25% capacity increase.

 

[BayPaul]

I wonder what would happen to the 'other' 150/9 - presumably they'd need to make 2 of them, and St Ives would only need one. I guess Devon Metro would be likely, presumably as a capacity reduction from a 4 car 150 service.

 

[Parallel]

150001 and 150002 are non-gangway. The units GWR already swapped with Northern were on the basis of having a fully gangwayed fleet. Northern now operates the entire 150/1 fleet as well as 150001 and 150002. GWR are more likely to get extra 150/2s freed up by TfW.

For the sake of running the St Ives service in peak summer, I can’t see GWR being too bothered about gangways - their priority will be to shift as many people as possible. I don’t think GWR mind where the 150s come from, but due to the delay in 769s, Turbos are stuck at Reading and unable to come west to free up any 150s. TfW are unlikely to help until their new stock is in service.

I wonder what would happen to the 'other' 150/9 - presumably they'd need to make 2 of them, and St Ives would only need one. I guess Devon Metro would be likely, presumably as a capacity reduction from a 4 car 150 service.

The Devon metro is extremely busy in peak summer on the Exmouth to Paignton circuit so short forming there probably isn’t going to go down well.

 

[BayPaul]

The Devon metro is extremely busy in peak summer on the Exmouth to Paignton circuit so short forming there probably isn’t going to go down well.

I agree. I don't think the platforms are long enough for a 100m train, so I guess no chance of a 5 car unit on the route. Where else could it go? Falmouth perhaps?

 

[RPI]

For the sake of running the St Ives service in peak summer, I can’t see GWR being too bothered about gangways - their priority will be to shift as many people as possible. I don’t think GWR mind where the 150s come from, but due to the delay in 769s, Turbos are stuck at Reading and unable to come west to free up any 150s. TfW are unlikely to help until their new stock is in service.

The Devon metro is extremely busy in peak summer on the Exmouth to Paignton circuit so short forming there probably isn’t going to go down well.

There's also an extra unit required from May for the hourly Okehampton. The opposite 150/9 would be ideal for Newquay in summer.

 

[northernbelle]

For the sake of running the St Ives service in peak summer, I can’t see GWR being too bothered about gangways - their priority will be to shift as many people as possible. I don’t think GWR mind where the 150s come from, but due to the delay in 769s, Turbos are stuck at Reading and unable to come west to free up any 150s. TfW are unlikely to help until their new stock is in service.

The Devon metro is extremely busy in peak summer on the Exmouth to Paignton circuit so short forming there probably isn’t going to go down well.

I don't think the 5 car St Ives plan is proposed for the immediate future - it relies among other things on the 769s cascading Turbos west to free up 150s from current duties.

There will be a reduced HST requirement from May enabled by the use of some IETs on Cardiff - Penzance west services. I suspect this will reduce further from Dec 22 as, in theory, more Turbos will have come west following 769 introduction at Reading.

With the number of DMU substitutions we're currently seeing because of poor HST reliability, having IETs and more Turbos available for west services will hopefully further free up class 150 stock.

 

[co-tr-paul]

Deleted due to error.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

There is a further problem with forming up dedicated 3-car sets for the St Ives branch - the sets still have to cycle through Exeter depot for maintenance purposes, and currently this is achieved (with 2 car sets) by gradually cycling them through the branch diagrams until you reach a working that naturally finishes at Exeter - IIRC it’s the Gunnislake set which then works a late-evening Plymouth-Exeter. This however would not work with only two sets which would require their own dedicated cycle, which would introduce a serious inefficiency into the fleet deployment and most likely require a further 2-car set to cover.

Train planning ain’t easy!

 

[fgwrich]

There is a further problem with forming up dedicated 3-car sets for the St Ives branch - the sets still have to cycle through Exeter depot for maintenance purposes, and currently this is achieved (with 2 car sets) by gradually cycling them through the branch diagrams until you reach a working that naturally finishes at Exeter - IIRC it’s the Gunnislake set which then works a late-evening Plymouth-Exeter. This however would not work with only two sets which would require their own dedicated cycle, which would introduce a serious inefficiency into the fleet deployment and most likely require a further 2-car set to cover.

Train planning ain’t easy!

Indeed, it’s a small if not fascinating cycle those units go through, from starting off on the Devon Metro, to working their way down to Looe, Falmouth, then across to St Ives, Newquay, Gunnislake and Plymouth and back to Exeter.

 

[northernbelle]

There is a further problem with forming up dedicated 3-car sets for the St Ives branch - the sets still have to cycle through Exeter depot for maintenance purposes, and currently this is achieved (with 2 car sets) by gradually cycling them through the branch diagrams until you reach a working that naturally finishes at Exeter - IIRC it’s the Gunnislake set which then works a late-evening Plymouth-Exeter. This however would not work with only two sets which would require their own dedicated cycle, which would introduce a serious inefficiency into the fleet deployment and most likely require a further 2-car set to cover.

Train planning ain’t easy!

Indeed. I don't suppose any 3 car plan will come to fruition until the wider landscape has shifted a bit.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Indeed, it’s a small if not fascinating cycle those units go through, from starting off on the Devon Metro, to working their way down to Looe, Falmouth, then across to St Ives, Newquay, Gunnislake and Plymouth and back to Exeter.

It’s also a testament to contemporary unit reliability that the cycle doesn’t regularly fall over due to failures! 150s get some criticism but it’s an extremely reliable and robust piece of kit, doing the job it was designed for.

 

[tiptoptaff]

I suspect that cycling will be achieved in a similar way to the way they're booked to cycle via SPM now, with one booked train in each direction a week to visit home base.

Can be achieved by a through St Ives to PNZ train in late evening that splits and the 3 goes to EXD.

 

[RPI]

It’s also a testament to contemporary unit reliability that the cycle doesn’t regularly fall over due to failures! 150s get some criticism but it’s an extremely reliable and robust piece of kit, doing the job it was designed for.

I have to agree, 150's are probably my favourite train to work, as long as its not a 2 car on an Exmouth-Paignton!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2022 ==

I suspect that cycling will be achieved in a similar way to the way they're booked to cycle via SPM now, with one booked train in each direction a week to visit home base.

Can be achieved by a through St Ives to PNZ train in late evening that splits and the 3 goes to EXD.

Currently there is a Saturday St Ives to Penzance service around 18:20 which could fit the bill perfectly

 

[fgwrich]

It’s also a testament to contemporary unit reliability that the cycle doesn’t regularly fall over due to failures! 150s get some criticism but it’s an extremely reliable and robust piece of kit, doing the job it was designed for.

Totally agree with that. I know the class receive criticism on here, and in other places too, but I consider them to be the backbone of the South West. Reliable and very versatile - the fact that they can be trundling up and down a Cornish Branchline or the Devon Metro one day, to the Cornish Mainline the next, or covering for an IET and working up to Reading, is a testament to this. Their Wessex / FGW interiors certainly made them the best of the fleet too.

 

[northernbelle]

I have to agree, 150's are probably my favourite train to work, as long as its not a 2 car on an Exmouth-Paignton!

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Currently there is a Saturday St Ives to Penzance service around 18:20 which could fit the bill perfectly

Completely agree. And the fact they've not had any major technical redesign - same engines, gearboxes etc they've had from new is testament to their fundamental design!

They're a super train all in all.

 

[507020]

There is a further problem with forming up dedicated 3-car sets for the St Ives branch - the sets still have to cycle through Exeter depot for maintenance purposes, and currently this is achieved (with 2 car sets) by gradually cycling them through the branch diagrams until you reach a working that naturally finishes at Exeter - IIRC it’s the Gunnislake set which then works a late-evening Plymouth-Exeter. This however would not work with only two sets which would require their own dedicated cycle, which would introduce a serious inefficiency into the fleet deployment and most likely require a further 2-car set to cover.

Train planning ain’t easy!

Indeed, it’s a small if not fascinating cycle those units go through, from starting off on the Devon Metro, to working their way down to Looe, Falmouth, then across to St Ives, Newquay, Gunnislake and Plymouth and back to Exeter.

How long does this fascinating cycling take? If they are reliable enough, would it not be possible to stable the 3 car 150 in the bay at St Erth for the duration, splitting it daily and allowing 2 car units to complete the cycle, with a 3 or 5 car running to Penzance and then through to Exeter only infrequently, perhaps weekly, with the other 3 car unit running in the opposite direction to replace it at St Erth?

 

[tiptoptaff]

I have to agree, 150's are probably my favourite train to work, as long as its not a 2 car on an Exmouth-Paignton!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Mar 2022 ==


Currently there is a Saturday St Ives to Penzance service around 18:20 which could fit the bill perfectly

1820 is probably a little early for the 3car to drop out in high summer, but the principle is there

 

[HamworthyGoods]

How long does this fascinating cycling take? If they are reliable enough, would it not be possible to stable the 3 car 150 in the bay at St Erth for the duration, splitting it daily and allowing 2 car units to complete the cycle, with a 3 or 5 car running to Penzance and then through to Exeter only infrequently, perhaps weekly, with the other 3 car unit running in the opposite direction to replace it at St Erth?

Day 1 - PM ECS Exeter to Laira (formed off the 19.44 arrival at Exeter from Paignton).

Day 2 - Looe branch, finish at Par

Day 3 - Newquay branch, ECS to Long Rock.

Days 4 and 5 - St Ives Branch

Day 6 - Falmouth branch, ECS back to PNZ

Day 7 - Falmouth branch, ECS back to Plymouth

Day 8 - Gunnislake branch, late night working back to Exeter

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I suspect that cycling will be achieved in a similar way to the way they're booked to cycle via SPM now, with one booked train in each direction a week to visit home base.

Can be achieved by a through St Ives to PNZ train in late evening that splits and the 3 goes to EXD.

The problem is you have to achieve the same for all the other units working in Cornwall as well. So now you need two separate cycles that both rotate units via Exeter.