Greater Anglia Unit Failures

[dk1]

Tomorrows 06.48 Nrw-Lst has been knocked on the head.

 

[306024]

Together with:
06.20 Ipswich - Saxmundham
07.44 Saxmundham - Lowestoft
08.25 Ipswich - Felixstowe
08.54 Felixstowe - Ipswich
All replaced by buses, Tallisman to the rescue again.

Also a class 153 on Sudburys so additional peak buses to supplement.

No mention on the GA website re 06.48 NRW - LST........yet.

 

[johnnyp_360]

Tomorrows 06.48 Nrw-Lst has been knocked on the head.

This may seem like a silly question and I'm sure thell be a logical reason, Why don't they subsitute that with 379s? There always seems to be a few sitting around in sidings at Cambridge. As I understand, they are capable of going along the GEML as that's one of the places they were tested were they not?

 

[306024]

Not at 06.48 there aren't, so all the other complications are irrelevant. Suffice to say train crew route / traction knowledge issues, no conductors trained on 379s, 170 miles of empty running just to get from Cambridge to Norwich etc.

Yes 379s were route cleared to Norwich, but if 321s and an Ipswich crew were available that would be a better bet.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

This may seem like a silly question and I'm sure thell be a logical reason, Why don't they subsitute that with 379s? There always seems to be a few sitting around in sidings at Cambridge. As I understand, they are capable of going along the GEML as that's one of the places they were tested were they not?

Only West Anglia crews sign 379's. 27 out of 30 are diagrammed for use every weekday so there's no flexibility.

The most likely units to have any spares will be 321's.

 

[samuelmorris]

Yeah I saw a few of the 317s back. That will do I suppose to meet short-formed Norwich sets, but the DMU situation seems to have no resolution, other than waiting to fix units that are away being repaired. In all seriousness, if the unit shortage was this bad, the refurbishment project for the existing units should have been postponed.

 

[jopsuk]

This may seem like a silly question and I'm sure thell be a logical reason, Why don't they subsitute that with 379s? There always seems to be a few sitting around in sidings at Cambridge. As I understand, they are capable of going along the GEML as that's one of the places they were tested were they not?

In addition to the drivers not signing them, they're in full use during the peaks.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

Yeah I saw a few of the 317s back. That will do I suppose to meet short-formed Norwich sets, but the DMU situation seems to have no resolution, other than waiting to fix units that are away being repaired. In all seriousness, if the unit shortage was this bad, the refurbishment project for the existing units should have been postponed.

The 317/7's are back at Ilford, but are still off lease to GA. The latest is 4 are going to FCC for use whilst their 365 overhaul programme gets properly underway.

317722 is going to be trialled by GA when it's ready. I don't think a decision as to what's happening with the remaining units has been decided yet although the usual rumours are flying around.

 

[colchesterken]

I have the answer.Make GA take back 6 cl 317 no extra subisidy after all they said they could provide the service with 9 fewer units.
Make them up as 2 x 12 coach trains. fit a minimal cafe bar in the middle coach,micro wave, fridge, coffee machine. sell sarnies pies microwave chips and choc bars only, drinks tea coffee and tins only
They are 2+2 so OK for a long run. fit them into a lite use diagrames
That would allow the temp. break up of 2 LHCS. add standard class coaches to make other units all 9 car
Use the spare 1st class coaches & DVTs to make up 2 or 3 diesel hauled sets to run on Norwich local trips. untill the refurbs completed. with a gurantee to reinstate the local hauled sets ASAP

 

[oliMw]

Seems like a large amount of money for a relatively short fix, once all Refurbishments are complete it will be business as usual and there will be no need for the 317/7s in that form though they can always find a use on the electrified network

 

[SprinterMan]

It's worse than that....they said they could deliver it with less units, handing back the 317/7s.

I don't doubt that many franchises are farcical, but Abellio have made the GE worse than it was under NE, and that has taken some doing.

I don't suppose Haket's replacement will do any more than his predecessor to sort or understand the mess.

I take exception to that. The DMU shortage has nothing to do with the lack of the 317/7s. The DMU shortage is to do with GA suffering some misfortune while trying to refurbish stock, something NX never did. When NX was around, trains were filthy inside and out, and quite often were pressed into service covered in graffiti (aside from the 379s, which were taken very good care of, to be fair). Most things were running around in poorly debranded ONE colours and electric trains were late and cancelled a lot more than they are now.

The 317/7s cost 3 times as much to lease as other 317s or 321s because of their pricey refurbishment, so NXEA were just burning money when they were leasing them then storing them out of use at Harwich. I am doing an accounting degree, and I cannot honestly say I would not have at least considered doing what GA have done and sending them off-lease.

Do not forget that NXEA set aside £10mil to refurb the 321 fleet, and then took the money as profit instead, leaving the 321 fleet in the state it is in today. it is a good job FGE did a reasonable refurbishment of them back in 2000, and GA have made the 321/4s look very good and 321448 (the demonstrator unit) is brilliant.

I have the answer.Make GA take back 6 cl 317 no extra subisidy after all they said they could provide the service with 9 fewer units.
Make them up as 2 x 12 coach trains. fit a minimal cafe bar in the middle coach,micro wave, fridge, coffee machine. sell sarnies pies microwave chips and choc bars only, drinks tea coffee and tins only
They are 2+2 so OK for a long run. fit them into a lite use diagrames
That would allow the temp. break up of 2 LHCS. add standard class coaches to make other units all 9 car
Use the spare 1st class coaches & DVTs to make up 2 or 3 diesel hauled sets to run on Norwich local trips. untill the refurbs completed. with a gurantee to reinstate the local hauled sets ASAP

That is not practical for several reasons. 4 317/7s are very soon to go to FCC, and 1 317/7 will soon be in use on West Anglia services as a demonstrator, so there will only be 4 available (which I have heard will possibly go to Northern at the start of electric services in December). So, 2 8 car rakes of 1 12 car rake could be formed, which is not enough to justify the expense. Also, modifying these units for what will only be a few months use is a waste of money and GA will not do it, and rightfully so. Breaking up the big LHCS sets is also stupid, as they are very inefficient as the coaches are not through wired for multiple working with diesel locomotives.

The way I see it, the best solution would be to hire that ATW 150 again (ATW have a unit surplus currently due to the Cambrian coast being shut still), and get SWT to lease a 158 to EMT, who then in turn can lease a 156 to GA. These 2 hired in units, together with the new DRS hauled set should end the problems.

Adam

 

[87015]

I take exception to that. The DMU shortage has nothing to do with the lack of the 317/7s. The DMU shortage is to do with GA suffering some misfortune while trying to refurbish stock, something NX never did.

Yes, the GE mainline is a seperate issue to the current DMU riot but it illustrates how GA set their stall out from the start - reduce capacity on one of the most overcrowded mainlines to eek out more pennies.

Accountants may well consider sending the 317/7s away a good idea - but its not for passengers or the industry as a whole, its embarrassing and a sad illustration of how the whole structure is out of shape. A railway run by accountants is just a race to the bottom and something the GE has sadly been suffering for a long time now.

Nearly all MTIN figures from GA are well down on NXEA days, Mk3 sets being the main improved class which is largely down to NX started long-term improvement schemes from the dark first days of the ex-WC sets which were basically wrecks when they got across from Virgin. The 321/4 refurbishment under NX was binned by the DfT when they removed the extension as it was always coming under that. Surely as an accountant you'd also view that as the "correct" decision?

 

[SprinterMan]

Yes, the GE mainline is a seperate issue to the current DMU riot but it illustrates how GA set their stall out from the start - reduce capacity on one of the most overcrowded mainlines to eek out more pennies.

People were complaining about the 317/7s causing overcrowding when they were in use because of their absurd interior design. As it stands currently, the number of standard class seats in a 317/7 is only a bit higher than a 156.

Accountants may well consider sending the 317/7s away a good idea - but its not for passengers or the industry as a whole, its embarrassing and a sad illustration of how the whole structure is out of shape. A railway run by accountants is just a race to the bottom and something the GE has sadly been suffering for a long time now.

It is true, privatisation needs a big review, especially considering the WCML fiasco in 2012. 2 years is FAR too short .for a franchise

Nearly all MTIN figures from GA are well down on NXEA days, Mk3 sets being the main improved class which is largely down to NX started long-term improvement schemes from the dark first days of the ex-WC sets which were basically wrecks when they got across from Virgin. The 321/4 refurbishment under NX was binned by the DfT when they removed the extension as it was always coming under that. Surely as an accountant you'd also view that as the "correct" decision?

I am not an accountant, I am merely doing an accounting degree :P There are lines that must not be crossed. The 321/4 refurbishment was very necessary; they had fleas living in the seats for crying out loud. This wasn't the plan I was talking about anyway. back in 2008 NXEA claimed it was going to fit AC to the 321s, but then NXEC went belly up so NX decide that the £10mil it had set aside for this looked far tastier as profit. What should have happened with the 317/7s is decreasing 1st Class and luggage areas and tables, and adding a lot more new seats, but GA had their hands tied by the DfT with their absurdly short franchise, and so they were backed into a corner.

Adam

 

[CockneySparrow]

Seems like a large amount of money for a relatively short fix, once all Refurbishments are complete it will be business as usual and there will be no need for the 317/7s in that form though they can always find a use on the electrified network

Suppose they could send them to Wolverton to be fitted out with all this kit, that will probably take the best part of a month at least, during that time the others will be back

 

[SprinterMan]

Suppose they could send them to Wolverton to be fitted out with all this kit, that will probably take the best part of a month at least, during that time the others will be back

Good idea, if all 317s are getting refurbished anyway, do the off-lease ones first so their is no interruption to service, then when they are done they can seamlessly replace the unrefurbished ones. That mean Northern will likely end up with some (refurbished) 317/5s eventually.

Adam

 

[zn1]

a little bit off topic..but when the air con was trialled in passenger accommodation for 321 back in nse days it was installed in unit 425...she was dragged down to fratton depot for it to be installed...not many 321's get that far south....

 

[captainbigun]

People were complaining about the 317/7s causing overcrowding when they were in use because of their absurd interior design. As it stands currently, the number of standard class seats in a 317/7 is only a bit higher than a 156.



It is true, privatisation needs a big review, especially considering the WCML fiasco in 2012. 2 years is FAR too short .for a franchise



I am not an accountant, I am merely doing an accounting degree :P There are lines that must not be crossed. The 321/4 refurbishment was very necessary; they had fleas living in the seats for crying out loud. This wasn't the plan I was talking about anyway. back in 2008 NXEA claimed it was going to fit AC to the 321s, but then NXEC went belly up so NX decide that the £10mil it had set aside for this looked far tastier as profit. What should have happened with the 317/7s is decreasing 1st Class and luggage areas and tables, and adding a lot more new seats, but GA had their hands tied by the DfT with their absurdly short franchise, and so they were backed into a corner.

Adam

I've got an engineering degree if that helps this argument?!!

You may take exception but you may also not have to suffer the consequence of GA's shortsighted approach to handing back units it needed on a daily basis. The Mk3s are in a state with no capacity to cover the latest round of overhauls, 321s needed go cover the gap from a fleet that already struggles.

As 87015 has said reliability is now pretty grim including the Mk3 sets, more units stopped more short formations. I'd rather stand on a 12 car 317/7 than try and wedge into a short formed bin set.

Race to the bottom is about right.

 

[northernrailer]

156416 has today travelled ECS from Norwich Crown Point to Wolverton for refurbishment and PRM work, this is the last class 156 to be done.

156417 is already at Wolverton and is half through its refurbishment and PRM work and should be finished in around 4/5 weeks.

This means GA currently have 153314, 156416, 156417 out of service - plus any 170s that are out of service for maintenance or damage repairs.

The diagramming for the Sprinter fleet is:

class 153 - 4 diagrams for 5 units (1 spare for maintenance).
so they are technically running 3 units a day instead of 4, I presume the spare unit for maintenance will be back in service ASAP each day depending on any issues with the unit.


class 156 - 7 diagrams for 8 units (1 spare for maintenance).
so they are technically running 4 units a day instead of 7 with, I presume the spare unit for maintenance will be back in service ASAP each day depending on any issues with the unit.

 

[Tottenham Flyer]

156416 has today travelled ECS from Norwich Crown Point to Wolverton for refurbishment and PRM work, this is the last class 156 to be done.

156417 is already at Wolverton and is half through its refurbishment and PRM work and should be finished in around 4/5 weeks.

This means GA currently have 153314, 156416, 156417 out of service - plus any 170s that are out of service for maintenance or damage repairs.

The diagramming for the Sprinter fleet is:

class 153 - 4 diagrams for 5 units (1 spare for maintenance).
so they are technically running 3 units a day instead of 4, I presume the spare unit for maintenance will be back in service ASAP each day depending on any issues with the unit.


class 156 - 7 diagrams for 8 units (1 spare for maintenance).
so they are technically running 4 units a day instead of 7 with, I presume the spare unit for maintenance will be back in service ASAP each day depending on any issues with the unit.

153322 also stopped pending arrival of new wheelsets next Monday. 170272 is having a new cab fitted following fatality damage. 153314 should be back at NC next week, with 417 the week after. 416 went today as you said as that also requires new wheelsets which will be done at Wolverton.

 

[TheEdge]

The majority of gap covering is being done by 170s. I don't entirely understand how because for the most part 170 diagrams are staying as 170s yet 3 car units especially keep turning up on all sorts of odd jobs.

Today I had a 3 car 170 instead of a 156 on the 0510 Norwich - Cromer, which has been a fixture for a few days now. Saturday almost all the Sheringham services were 3 car 170s! Tuesday the 0525 Lowestoft - Harwich was a 3 car (booked 2 car 170). I took a two car 170 to Sheringham yesterday in place of a 156.

 

[CockneySparrow]

The majority of gap covering is being done by 170s. I don't entirely understand how because for the most part 170 diagrams are staying as 170s yet 3 car units especially keep turning up on all sorts of odd jobs.

Today I had a 3 car 170 instead of a 156 on the 0510 Norwich - Cromer, which has been a fixture for a few days now. Saturday almost all the Sheringham services were 3 car 170s! Tuesday the 0525 Lowestoft - Harwich was a 3 car (booked 2 car 170). I took a two car 170 to Sheringham yesterday in place of a 156.

Will a 3 car fit at Sheringham or did they run it into big station

They have been cancelling Norwich to Cambridge services, the one that hits Ely at 7:33 only run once the other week, makes sense as anyone can get on EMT and change at Ely, and at 7:30 you have 8 car 317 going to Cambridge onto LST

 

[jopsuk]

according to GA Twitter there was a 153 on Cambridge-Ipswich today- there was a post that the 1744 to Ipswich was formed of 1 car with a bus direct to Newmarket supplementing it.

 

[transportphoto]

Will a 3 car fit at Sheringham or did they run it into big station

Wishful thinking squire on the latter point! Nope, Sheringham fits a two car 156 comfortably... that's all. I believe the Cromer end car is locked out manually between Cromer and Sheringham (and return)... this is despite West Runton being a 3 Car Platform IIRC.

TP

 

[dk1]

Will a 3 car fit at Sheringham or did they run it into big station

They have been cancelling Norwich to Cambridge services, the one that hits Ely at 7:33 only run once the other week, makes sense as anyone can get on EMT and change at Ely, and at 7:30 you have 8 car 317 going to Cambridge onto LST

& EMT have kindly agreed to stop the 06.52 Lime St additionally at Wymondham, Attleborough & Brandon.

 

[CockneySparrow]

& EMT have kindly agreed to stop the 06.52 Lime St additionally at Wymondham, Attleborough & Brandon.

EMT rush hour trains stop at Wymondham anyway, bur GA have a good relationship with EMT though

 

[jopsuk]

379 failure this morning- meant a 12-car 379 was replaced with an 8-car 317, and there's presumably other short forms that then follow

 

[OA2011]

Still think it is cheeky to announce Norwich trains as "9 carriages instead of 10" or even "8 carriages instead of 10"- those numbers include the DVT, which to a passenger is definitely not a carriage!

I don't think they count the DVT any longer, and the way I've calculated the number of coaches behind the 90 is first class is a quarter of the coaches (8), with the buffet coach making it 9 coaches.

Jon

 

[jopsuk]

They're definitely still counting the DVT. Several trains today reported as

Will be formed of 9 coaches. Catering is reduced to an at seat service of light refreshments only.
This is due to an earlier train fault.

They wouldn't report that as a short form if they weren't counting the DVT.

 

[dk1]

Short hauled set is announced as 3 coaches (FO, TSO & DVT) I was expecting to see 170201-8

 

[jopsuk]

Three tweets right now confirm they're counting the DVT (references to 10-carriage)
Number 1
Number 2
Number 3