Greater Anglia Class 755s (Regional Trains)

[Flywaver1]

I thought I'd read somewhere that this would happen, and that fuel tank sizes had been planned accordingly.

Would be good PR if it does. I understand that the latest Arriva buses just introduced into service here in Derby (Wrightbus Streetlites) have "start/stop micro-hybrid technology", so if the new bi-modes don't match this by having to run on diesel under the wires for short distances as at Norwich, Greater Anglia will be leaving themselves open to criticism from those who care about clean air, the environment, etc., and there's a risk that they will be compared in a negative way with modern buses; people will ask why, if stop/start technology is available on modern buses, why can't trains switch quickly and easily from electric to diesel, and vice versa.

You're asking for alot of Infrastructure hassle.Its fine dropping a Pantograph in motion, but raising it on the move puts a massive risk of the Wires coming down. After last Thursday decible with Cambridge at a stand still.I am sure Network Rail aren't going to be too chuffed to see this exercise being carried out

 

[321over360]

Slightly off topic, but will the 755s on the Bittern Line switch to electric mode for the approach into Norwich as otherwise their bi-mode capabilities seem a bit wasted on a non electrified service?

Could say the same about the Wherry line services as dont they end up under the wires once the Lowestoft/Yarmouth Services & Sheringham meet up just before Norwich Depot and at present the DMU gets held "under the wires" waiting platform clearance into Norwich, surely this would be a good time to save a bit of Diesel and switch to overheads for the final leg into Norwich

 

[jopsuk]

there's a similar question to be asked regarding trains from Ipswich arriving at Cambridge

 

[321over360]

there's a similar question to be asked regarding trains from Ipswich arriving at Cambridge

Question is do they like the DMUs from Sheringham/Yarmouth/Lowestoft sit and dwell underneath the start of the OHLE waiting for Signal clearance into Ipswich like they do at Norwich, also surely they could also extend them onto say Harwich International/Manningtree instead of clogging up the platforms at Ipswich which gives flexibility for the London - Ipswich Terminators and the Through London - Norwich Intercitys

 

[306024]

Approaching Ipswich you could pan up from Stowmarket while in the station. Approaching Cambridge from Ipswich the train sometimes waits for the down Lynn, so theoretically you could pan up there if at a stand for what it’s worth.

Running on towards Manningtree is a pointless long shunt. Would cost a fortune in crew costs for little commercial benefit. The Peterborough service makes some commercial and operational sense to extend to Colchester, as in the bid, but that’s possibly all.

 

[321over360]

Approaching Ipswich you could pan up from Stowmarket while in the station. Approaching Cambridge from Ipswich the train sometimes waits for the down Lynn, so theoretically you could pan up there if at a stand for what it’s worth.

Running on towards Manningtree is a pointless long shunt. Would cost a fortune in crew costs for little commercial benefit. The Peterborough service makes some commercial and operational sense to extend to Colchester, as in the bid, but that’s possibly all.

Only reason i say is i have been on a Norwich to London train and it had to wait outside Ipswich due to no platform space (as a Cambridge was in its usual London Bound Platform, I believe Plt 2) hence why i say dont have too much terminating in ipswich so 2 & 3 are reserved for through trains and 4 is kept for the LST to IPS terminators, however if GA do get their 3rd LST to NRW train using the 720s then maybe this will take the place of the Ipswich Terminator as Plt 2 & 3 should not be given clearance to a terminating train at the expense of the London to Norwich Intercity Services, otherwise Ipswich needs more platform space

 

[Class 170101]

Neither Platform 1 at Ipswich or Platform 6 at Norwich are wired and I doubt have prospects of being wired so it will be interesting to see how operation of services in diesel or electric mode operate in practise.

 

[Railperf]

You're asking for alot of Infrastructure hassle.Its fine dropping a Pantograph in motion, but raising it on the move puts a massive risk of the Wires coming down. After last Thursday decible with Cambridge at a stand still.I am sure Network Rail aren't going to be too chuffed to see this exercise being carried out

The French have been raising and lowering pantographs on the move for decades at speeds of up to 200km/h - 125mph!!! Hundereds of trains services per day do just that.

 

[Rick1984]

Certainly might make sense for incoming trains from diesel lines to pan up when they terminate at platform. Therefore not emitting fumes under the station canopy.
They could then leave under electric and switch over at end of wires.

 

[306024]

Neither Platform 1 at Ipswich or Platform 6 at Norwich are wired and I doubt have prospects of being wired so it will be interesting to see how operation of services in diesel or electric mode operate in practise.

The wires in platform 1 at Ipswich run off before the buffer stops. If there is a will, or more importantly the money, that would appear at face value easiest to extend.

 

[Bald Rick]

The French have been raising and lowering pantographs on the move for decades at speeds of up to 200km/h - 125mph!!! Hundereds of trains services per day do just that.

And they will have specially designed and tensioned OLE in the specific areas where this occurs.

 

[AlexNL]

There's no reason why Anglia couldn't get similar areas. There's a solid case to be made for it, namely environmental benefits. Maybe you could even get some council funding for it.

 

[dk1]

I think the issue is more on the saving of diesel use in the smaller tanks more than anything. Pollution isn't something that's really causes much interest on the railways.

 

[Bald Rick]

There's no reason why Anglia couldn't get similar areas. There's a solid case to be made for it, namely environmental benefits. Maybe you could even get some council funding for it.

I agree there’s no technical reason. Cash is another matter, as building and maintaining strengthened sections for (potentially) small savings in fuel may be rather overkill. Someone will do the maths no doubt.

 

[Mikey C]

I think the issue is more on the saving of diesel use in the smaller tanks more than anything. Pollution isn't something that's really causes much interest on the railways.

It is of interest now. Otherwise why buy bimodes instead of a DMUs like the CAF 195s?

 

[grumpyoldman01]

And they will have specially designed and tensioned OLE in the specific areas where this occurs.

As someone totally ignorant in such matters, can you please explain what is needed, why, and what such specially designed and tensioned OLE looks like?

I ask this because I remember travelling across LGV Nord between Calais and Lille on a Eurostar some years ago, and I was in the front coach and able to see the shadow of the leading power car and its pantographs; at one stage, the driver dropped, then raised, then dropped, then raised a pantograph for some reason, there being reasonable time gaps between each action. By observation, the OLE seemed to be to the same design when the driver undertook these actions as elsewhere on LGV Nord.

Or is it that all LGV OLE is designed so that pantograph raising can take place anywhere on the line?

 

[urpert]

Eurostars also used to raise pantographs on the move in the pre-HS1 days when changing voltage between Westenhanger and Dollands Moor.

 

[dk1]

It is of interest now. Otherwise why buy bimodes instead of a DMUs like the CAF 195s?

It's because it makes sense where there is OHL. What I mean is that a few years ago there was a purge on environmental issues with eco-driving. Coasting boards (not that I need to be spoon fed on where to Coast) never seem to get talked about anymore. The whole idea has died a quick death & is never mentioned now. Nobody suggests units are shut down when idling & keys are left in for hours overnight especially during colder weather.

 

[hwl]

Pollution isn't something that's really causes much interest on the railways.

My inbox suggests otherwise currently!

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Eurostars also used to raise pantographs on the move in the pre-HS1 days when changing voltage between Westenhanger and Dollands Moor.

True; but this happened for every Eurostar heading for France, and the OLE would presumably have been designed accordingly and in accordance with Bald Rick's post 1901.

The example I described happened in open country, hence my question as the OLE appeared to be to the "normal" French high speed design

 

[dk1]

My inbox suggests otherwise currently!

Then there's the 37s. Wonderful to see them on a cold morning start up.

 

[ac6000cw]

I thought I'd read somewhere that this would happen, and that fuel tank sizes had been planned accordingly.

Would be good PR if it does. I understand that the latest Arriva buses just introduced into service here in Derby (Wrightbus Streetlites) have "start/stop micro-hybrid technology", so if the new bi-modes don't match this by having to run on diesel under the wires for short distances as at Norwich, Greater Anglia will be leaving themselves open to criticism from those who care about clean air, the environment, etc., and there's a risk that they will be compared in a negative way with modern buses; people will ask why, if stop/start technology is available on modern buses, why can't trains switch quickly and easily from electric to diesel, and vice versa.

Since the FLIRTS are multi-engine DEMU (genset-style) units, I assume they will only run as many engines as are needed to handle the overall power output required, so at least they should shut down most of the engines when stationary (after a while), depending on 'hotel' and auxiliary power requirements.

I assume raising the pantograph shouldn't be an issue when stationary in a major station?

 

[Dave1987]

Then there's the 37s. Wonderful to see them on a cold morning start up.

A DRS guy was very happy to tell me a while back why those things are still going and so neat and tidy. All to do with grandfather rights and they are authorised to go virtually anywhere on the entire network. Having said that the clag a 170 chucks out on cold startup is pretty impressive. Be interesting to see what these bi-modes are like starting and stopping all the time. I can’t believe they are going to hugging Johnny polar bear even with the ‘state of the art’ engines on board. Putting them through constant heat cycles won’t be any good for engine wear.

 

[samuelmorris]

A DRS guy was very happy to tell me a while back why those things are still going and so neat and tidy. All to do with grandfather rights and they are authorised to go virtually anywhere on the entire network. Having said that the clag a 170 chucks out on cold startup is pretty impressive. Be interesting to see what these bi-modes are like starting and stopping all the time. I can’t believe they are going to hugging Johnny polar bear even with the ‘state of the art’ engines on board. Putting them through constant heat cycles won’t be any good for engine wear.

I would say automotive hybrids manage it but then they're not diesels.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A DRS guy was very happy to tell me a while back why those things are still going and so neat and tidy. All to do with grandfather rights and they are authorised to go virtually anywhere on the entire network. Having said that the clag a 170 chucks out on cold startup is pretty impressive. Be interesting to see what these bi-modes are like starting and stopping all the time. I can’t believe they are going to hugging Johnny polar bear even with the ‘state of the art’ engines on board. Putting them through constant heat cycles won’t be any good for engine wear.

There are ways to solve that. On the Class 800, for instance, power from the OHLE is used to keep the engines at optimal operating temperature all the time.

 

[Railperf]

True; but this happened for every Eurostar heading for France, and the OLE would presumably have been designed accordingly and in accordance with Bald Rick's post 1901.

The example I described happened in open country, hence my question as the OLE appeared to be to the "normal" French high speed design

It appears the French high -speed infrastructure - the same applies to HS1 - seems to be a tighter design (supports much closer together - higher tensioning) than standard British main line practice - that can handle pan up and down on the move across the network. I remember reading somewhere that the actual TGV wire heights is virtually the same height above the ground, regardless of bridges and tunnels. This therefore seems to require less upwards force from the pantograph itself. TGV;s and Eurostar are fitted with a pantograph and line voltage selector switches that set the required upwards force, height limits etc depending on the position for the selector. Note that the channel tunnel wire height is much higher and therefore the ET (Eurotunnel) position allows the pantograph to extend much higher than standard TGV or UK/French standards when the selector is in that position.
On a standard main line railway - the wire height is much more variable - and probably requires a greater upwards force - which limits the speed at which the panto can be raised. But then on another note - isn't it now possible for Class 91's to coast through sections of OLE where the 'juice' is off? And if so that would suggest they have to be able to pan up and down either side of those sections at speed? Which, if true, suggests that could be applicable across the network?

If not, maybe it would require investment to beef up the OLE where FLIRTS need to switch to electric from diesel?

 

[Dave1987]

There are ways to solve that. On the Class 800, for instance, power from the OHLE is used to keep the engines at optimal operating temperature all the time.

I highly doubt that! How exactly do you keep a cylinder block at the same temperature as they are subjected to during the ignition of fuel vapour? Heating the water and oil in the cooling system will alleviate some of the thermal shock but you will never keep the cylinders at the main operating temperatures experienced under full load. Unless you keep the engine running you will not stop the cylinder block experiencing a thermal cycle.

 

[Railperf]

Thermal shock also occurs when the engines are cycling between full power and idle. 40 years of HST's has proved that lol.

 

[robreed90001]

any chance we are due a delivery tomorrow? just wondering as it looks like 66001 went to Dollands Moor this morning, since it has the correct mods to haul the Flirts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I highly doubt that! How exactly do you keep a cylinder block at the same temperature as they are subjected to during the ignition of fuel vapour? Heating the water and oil in the cooling system will alleviate some of the thermal shock but you will never keep the cylinders at the main operating temperatures experienced under full load. Unless you keep the engine running you will not stop the cylinder block experiencing a thermal cycle.

Why not? Through a combination of water and oil heating and glow plugs and similar heating elements I see no reason why the block could not be kept at the optimal temperature.