Grand Central Discussion

[adambro]

A quick look on NRES gives:
CHEAPEST: £39 (GC)
OPEN: 99.50
Saver/Cheap Day: £122.50/219.00(!!)
These are SIngle fares based on a journey after 8am tomorrow morning

Pax numbers north of York southbound are picking up. The Sunday service seems to be well patonised.

The comparison between walk on fares is hardly a fair one consideration the restrictive nature of GC fares and I'd also note that it is not relevant to the point I was making.

 

[djw1981]

No but it is related to Voyagerdude220's point!

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

lets see, you roll up to York tomorrow morning, just after 8am, and you dont have a ticket, do you jump on the next natex service and get stung for £100, or do you wait til 0820 and get on the GC service, and save £60?
I know what I would do...

 

[yorkie]

lets see, you roll up to York tomorrow morning, just after 8am, and you dont have a ticket, do you jump on the next natex service and get stung for £100, or do you wait til 0820 and get on the GC service, and save £60?
I know what I would do...

Unfortunately I think that the number of people who turn up just before a GC train is due to depart and wish to purchase at that moment has, perhaps, been overestimated.

Comparison of return fares (YRK-KGX):
GC only £64
Business saver (any TOC) £122.50

Comparison of single fares (YRK-KGX):
GC only £39
SOS (any TOC) £99.50

Given the above fares, I would agree with Sir_Clagalot that someone wanting a walk-up single at that time would be mad not to go for the GC only fare! But, the big problem is, people who buy tickets in advance, people with railcards wanting a return, people who are unsure of travel plans on their return trip, etc are all unlikely to go with GC. It is worth bearing in mind that anyone who fears they may miss the 16:50 back, would have to purchase a whole new ticket to get back, as TOC-specific tickets cannot be excessed!

I'm pretty sure most people require a return, and for anyone with a railcard the savings of a GC-only return (£64) over a Business Saver (£80.85) is minimal. To save £16 you'd risk being stranded with an unusable ticket at King's Cross after 16:50 with the prospect of having to shell out again for a new ticket to get back!

And the above isn't considering the fact that many journeys do not actually end at King's Cross, but GC-only tickets do. And then there's people who travel from places on the Harrogate, Scarborough lines etc who could get an inclusive BVR from their origin to destination, or the alternative is a combination of tickets, one of which is the GC-only fare, and if they miss the GC trains they're stuffed.

The issue over AP, is that people like voyagerdude etc travel almost exclusively on AP tickets, therefore they will never be GC customers. GC are, in effect, not even competing for this market. They've decided to let NXEC have these customers unchallenged. That's fine, but it means they are going to have to be EXTREMELY competetive in the walk-on market in order to attract customers. With only 3 services, much of the benefit of walk-on fares is actually removed, so you can't compete on convenience. So you then can only compete on price. For anyone with a railcard, they can't really compete, so they've lost the railcard market already. The market that GC then appeals to is rather limited as a result (I'm not saying people won't choose to travel on GC, but they won't be on GC-only fares, is what I am saying. Peak-time passengers are in fact very likely to use the 08:22 as it's the first BVR train, but most of the money these passengers pay will go to NXEC).

As for Paul1609's question about north of York, I took a trip on GC yesterday and loadings are really improving a lot. There wasn't a huge number getting on at York, so I was expecting the train to be quite empty, but when I walked through the train one of the coaches was full, and a couple of others were reasonably loaded, so most of these people must have got on before York. It's certainly improving, albeit slowly. I think the market is there, but to really entice the market into using GC, the fares will need to be revised.

For journeys north of York, some GC fares should not exist, because they are higher than the any-TOC fares, so none will be sold. I like the way GC tried to keep it simple with their structure, but it is operating within an existing structure and people won't pay GC £12 for a GC York-Hartlepool return when a CDR is £9 (£6 for railcard holders). I would, given the choice, actually pay the same as a CDR and voluntarily lose that flexibility, for a GC only fare because I'd rather GC got the money than the other TOCs, but there is no option to do so

I'm also very confused about the £15 supplement that has been mentioned. By not charging it to Saver holders, and instead excessing people to BVRs, they are literally handing money to NXEC. Let's say the excess is £35 for a return, the passenger is £35 short, and GC may get £10 of that at the most. If GC charged the £15 supplement then that would be £15 if they did it one way, of which GC would get the whole £15. For a return it would be £30 (leaving the customer £5 better off) and GC would get the whole £30. It's a no-brainer, surely?!??!?!?!

 

[devon_metro]

I think Yorkie has a point, cheap walk on are great but there is limited availability and do many people arrive in London at 1030 and leave at 1650?

Some form of AP fare would definatly entice me if I was ever in the area, otherwise I could probably pay less and still go first class with NXEC! (don't quote me on it though!!)

An Idea might be to offer AP fares to London from stations past York, as NXEC don't serve these stations and GC are more dominant and can specifiy fares, whereas you still have a market from York but I can't see a small company undercutting NXEC when it comes to AP; even if NXEC AP fares are high in comparison to my part of the world...

 

[paul1609]

When GC start running the full timetable will a Business Saver be valid on the 08.04 ex KX?
If so I cant see many people buying GC tickets.

 

[yorkie]

When GC start running the full timetable will a Business Saver be valid on the 08.04 ex KX?
If so I cant see many people buying GC tickets.

"Valid on any train from London
Terminals except those timed
to depart between 0645-0815"

So, no BVRs can't be used on the 08:04 unless GC make an exception (I've no idea how such an exception would work with ORCATs, so I don't know how benefitial or not it would be for them to do so)

 

[s'land]

Does anyone know if the footnote on the GC website about the 0646 from SUN to KCX and the 1650 return trip on the 23rd Jan being fully booked might mean that they might have a full service launch day set for then !

 

[yorkie]

Does anyone know if the footnote on the GC website about the 0646 from SUN to KCX and the 1650 return trip on the 23rd Jan being fully booked might mean that they might have a full service launch day set for then !

Probably. I'd imagine they can't stop people getting on/off but they may have to stand.

 

[Tom]

Anyone on GC only fares will be able to get half price off then...

 

[Danny Dire]

I think they're doing a grand job, happy staff and happy punters.

 

[BOSCH]

"Valid on any train from London
Terminals except those timed
to depart between 0645-0815"

So, no BVRs can't be used on the 08:04 unless GC make an exception (I've no idea how such an exception would work with ORCATs, so I don't know how benefitial or not it would be for them to do so)

No exceptions,if its a restriction thats applicable then it has to be enforced,same as evening peak restrictions from KX.
As for the 23rd,Im late shift !!!

 

[yorkie]

No exceptions,if its a restriction thats applicable then it has to be enforced,same as evening peak restrictions from KX.
As for the 23rd,Im late shift !!!

OK thought there wouldn't be for GC, but there are exceptions, I just didn't paste them. It's understandable there isn't one for the 08:04 though, I guess the ORCATS increase would not exceed the projected increase in GC-only fares sold for it.

 

[Metroland]

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3174783.ece

 

[Oracle]

I remember the hassle we had trying to get steam trains authorised out of Marylebone when I was involved with railway preservation (based at Marylebone). What a palaver, and the opposition was well-rehearsed and intransigent. It took the Post Office to make a request to break the impasse. Best wished to GC and Mr Yeowart and his family. He is a few months older than myself, and I too was offered a job with BR but in 1974.

 

[yorkie]

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article3174783.ece

Good article. I'm impressed with virtually everything about GC (with the only exception being the ticket pricing policy ), and I like Ian's honesty. It's also good to read only a 40% load is required to break even as I was beginning to get worried! I think 40% may be achievable but with current pricing policies (sorry to keep going on about it!) it may take a long time to achieve 40%, but they will get there I'm sure.

On another note, thetrainline has had GCs fares for quite some time now, but NXEC still don't have them. Surprised? I'm not.

 

[Danny Dire]

It's a good article about a genuine bloke who had a dream and had the balls to see it through.

 

[yorkie]

It's a good article about a genuine bloke who had a dream and had the balls to see it through.

Yep, and a lot of people doubted it would happen, and they now have to eat humble pie

We do have to put it into perspective and be grateful we are having these discussions, as if GNER had their way, we wouldn't be.

On Saturday one of the GC employees had the whole day off, yet was still on the train, chatting to passengers. I think that alone speaks volumes! I also do know that a lot of them are not doing as much work as they'd like, because of only one diagram operating, and they are desperate to start working normally, demonstrating great enthusiasm.

Changing the subject back to the 23rd of January, I wonder if m8internet will be present?

 

[Metroland]

Yes it's great to see it starting to really shape up, especially considering the madness of the current rail system created out of political ideology, and the industries naysayers who constantly blather on with little reference to the good things the industry does or it's successes.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

I believe that the 23rd is a special case due to there being a Police Rally about their pay situation. I too will be working with Botch that evening.
We had a canny few on southbound this morning.

 

[BOSCH]

Botch

?????????????????????? How long have you worked with me ? its BOSCH
I despair sometimes Sir Clapalot,I really do !

 

[yorkie]

Seems the hole in the power car story may have been true after all!

http://www.newarkadvertiser.co.uk/template/temp1.asp?id=a12bd5cb-0b45-102b-81dc-d03080f03431 (wong image used!)

Oh, and all GC services cancelled today any news on why?

 

[Tom]

Set failure at Heaton according to my sources...

 

[BOSCH]

Set failure at Heaton according to my sources...

 

[Tom]

I'm guessing they're wrong

 

[BOSCH]

I'm guessing they're wrong

Guess again !!

 

[theblackwatch]

Does this mean there is still only one set/two power cars available for service?

 

[Tom]

I'd assume its the set which has a problem as I'm sure there are other PCs available...

 

[richa2002]

Deary do, the stock is taking a while to arrive!

 

[class 313]

“We have been operating for 30 years and have never had a derailment of a train so maybe this is testament to that safety record.”

Eh? 30 years?